Princess Art Auction Lawsuit

[bhopal21]

But I love how the auctioneers love to point out the people who actually are buying all the art. There were two groups of buyers on our last Royal Caribbean cruise who each spent over $25,000. One woman bought over 25 different pieces. I don't even know where someone could put all that art, except in storage.

 

People buy for offices, hotels and second homes.;)

 

Mike:)

[caribill]

 

As to the people paying over $70K for art and then finding a similar piece: I deal with some artists that routinely do something similar and do consider if their hand did the work it is an original.

 

There are several "original" versions of "The Scream" by Edvard Munch.

 

There are at least five "original" castings by Auguste Rodin of "The Thinker."

 

All of the above are valuable and are examples showing that multiple versions of the same art by the original artist often exist and can have both artistic and financial value.

 

One the other hand, there is only one "Mona Lisa", and that has yet to be offered onboard a Princess cruise at an art auction.

[custompcsys]

A law school professor very aptly explained the tort liability system as, "The rules wherein society allocates the economic burden of risk and injury."

 

If "society" was actually doing the allocating I wouldn't mind. That train of thought could lead into another entire discussion so I won't go there right now, but suffice to say that you would be right if the system existed in its pure, theoretical form.

 

I do agree with you on one point, however - its not about justice, its about economics. If Princess, or any other corporation, can still make a substantial profit even after paying their settlements, what insentive is there for them to change their business practices? And if what you say is true about the economics of PI litigation, why do I drive by a billboard every 5 miles that says "Injured? Call Us!"?

[bdjam]

Bdjam--that doesn't make the guy an ambulance chaser--just someone in the right place at the right time who performs a service that people want. If you slipped on a wet spot in the Horizon Court that a Princess employee hadn't cleaned up 20 minutes after having knowledge of it and broke your leg or hip (which I'm guessing may very well be what a lot of Sacks' cases are like) you may feel differently.

 

Les

I’ll bet Sacks’ next settlement that the majority of his cases don’t have to do with cruise line neglect. If you want to agree with his point of view, shouldn’t you agree with his thought that Princess is a good cruise ‘ship?’ Have you not noticed that people will initiate a lawsuit for anything they can? How many posts have you seen here from people who want to sue cruise lines because they missed their favorite port of call?

 

It’s interesting that Sacks had a part of the Crown Princess incident which didn’t happen in Los Angeles, San Pedro or in the right place at the right time for him. But I bet before Crown Princess had righted herself he was making sure he was offering a service to the passengers that people wanted. Same with Star Princess - Sacks isn't in Jamaica either

 

As for slipping in a wet spot, I hope that never happens – but on a ship or in food service area where the deck might be wet or the passenger before me may have dropped their lemonade, I try to be a little diligent. And if I’m falling because I’m not paying attention to the wet spot in front of me, maybe I deserve it.

Mr. Sachs is "obviously," as you say, an ambulance chaser.

Actually I was the one who said he was obviously an ambulance chaser. It would be interesting to know what the settlement for the lawsuits was - unfortunate we can't...then we'd know how much chasing he does for sure. And...I'm sure the article has drummed up a good deal of business for him. He's a smart guy - no doubt about that. Honest is another story.

[gertz]

Thanks for the information Tom. If I need to sue Princess I'll know who to get. Wonder what his take is?

 

Jack & Nora

Parker, Co

Princess Elite, Next Tahitian Princess Vancouver to Honolulu

[woodofpine]

If "society" was actually doing the allocating I wouldn't mind. That train of thought could lead into another entire discussion so I won't go there right now, but suffice to say that you would be right if the system existed in its pure, theoretical form.

 

I do agree with you on one point, however - its not about justice, its about economics. If Princess, or any other corporation, can still make a substantial profit even after paying their settlements, what insentive is there for them to change their business practices? And if what you say is true about the economics of PI litigation, why do I drive by a billboard every 5 miles that says "Injured? Call Us!"?

 

"Society" is doing the allocation as in judges, juries, appellate review, according to legislation that is crafted by industry and insurance lobbyists, not PI lobbyists (the PI bar is notoriously factonal and disorganized; If you hadn't noticed they allowed the tobacco industry to get the last laugh in that litigation pile).

 

Why are there billboards? Because selling down the claims of the masses at 50 cents on the dollar has to be done in volume to be lucrative. But without the PI bar, the public doesn't even get (2/3s of) 50 cents on the dollar.

 

And with extremely (newsworthy) rare exception, the jury that awards a plaintiff seven figures in a suit - you wouldn't switch places with... Generally speaking, big money verdicts measure to catastrophic injury. The system works. There are CERTAINLY more catastrophic injuries that go completely uncompensated (or severely undercompensated) than there are uncorrected runaway verdicts.

[taxatty]

Have you not noticed that people will initiate a lawsuit for anything they can? How many posts have you seen here from people who want to sue cruise lines because they missed their favorite port of call?

It’s interesting that Sacks had a part of the Crown Princess incident which didn’t happen in Los Angeles, San Pedro or in the right place at the right time for him. But I bet before Crown Princess had righted herself he was making sure he was offering a service to the passengers that people wanted. Same with Star Princess - Sacks isn't in Jamaica either.

 

You're right--people can and will sue anyone for anything (you can tell by my user name what I do, which isn't to sue people). However, you still have to have a real cause of action and real damages, which is my so many lawsuits get thrown out of court or settled for relative peanuts. One other difference between Sacks and me--I'm Platinum on Princess so I'm a Princess cheerleader far more than a Princess detractor.

 

As for your other point, the standard Princess Passage Contract is not surprisingly pretty one-sided in Princess' favor.

16. NOTICE OF CLAIMS AND SUITS; TIME LIMITATION; VENUE.

 

The following provisions govern all manner of claims and/or actions against Carrier, notwithstanding any provision of law to the contrary, and are for the benefit of any agents, independent contractors, concessionaires and suppliers of Carrier:

 

 

 

******************

 

 

 

(b) Venue and Jurisdiction: All disputes and matters involving claims for emotional or bodily injury, illness to or death of any Passenger whatsoever arising out of or relating to this Passage Contract or Your Cruise shall be litigated before a court of competent jurisdiction located in either the cities of Santa Clarita or Chatsworth, California, U.S.A., to the exclusion of the courts of any other country, state, city or county. You hereby consent to jurisdiction and waive any venue or other objection that may be available to any such action or proceeding being brought in such courts.

 

 

 

© All Other Claims: Any and all disputes, claims, or controversies whatsoever, other than for emotional or bodily injury, illness to or death of a Passenger, whether based on contract, tort, statutory, constitutional or other legal rights, including but not limited to alleged violation of civil rights, discrimination, consumer or privacy laws, or for any losses, damages or expenses, relating to or in any way arising out of or connected with this Passage Contract or Passenger's cruise, no matter how described, pleaded or styled, between the Passenger and Carrier, with the sole exception of claims brought and litigated in small claims court and claims for emotional or bodily injury, illness to or death of any Passenger, shall be referred to and resolved exclusively by binding arbitration pursuant to the United Nations Convention on the Recognition and Enforcement of Foreign Arbitral Awards (New York 1958), 21 U.S.T. 2517, 330 U.N.T.S. 3, 1970 U.S.T. LEXIS 115, 9 U.S.C. §§ 202-208 ("the Convention") and the Federal Arbitration Act, 9 U.S.C. §§ 1 et seq., ("FAA") in Santa Clarita, California, U.S.A. to the exclusion of any other forum. You hereby consent to jurisdiction and waive any venue or other objection that may be available to any such arbitration proceeding in Santa Clarita, California. The arbitration shall be administered by the American Arbitration Association ("AAA") under its Commercial Dispute Resolution Rules and Procedures that are deemed to be incorporated herein by reference. If You have a question about the arbitration administrators mentioned above, You can contact them as follows: American Arbitration Association, 725 South Figueroa Street, Ste. 2400, Los Angeles, CA 90017 (213) 362-1900 (http://www.adr.org).

 

 

 

San Pedro just happens to be not far from Santa Clarita and Chatsworth, where anyone who wants to sue Princess HAS to sue Princess, regardless of whether the injury occurred in California, Jamaica, Corfu or Helsinki. That's part of how the guy does it.

 

 

 

Les

[custompcsys]

To Woodofpine:

 

Just out of curiosity, what type of law do you practice? I do not mean to flame or disrespect, just genuinely curious.

[woodofpine]

Another item BDJam points out is "people who want to sue"... injury lawyers MUST have a client... as in 'We the People' with constitutional access to the courts and as Les points out, a client must have a valid 'cause of action' (legal theory) and actual damages...

 

As Les can probably testify (working the balance sheets) businesses DO NOT pay money on 'frivolous lawsuits' (urban myth). Frivolous lawsuits are contested and pretty quickly thrown out of Court (with defendant attorney fees occassionally awarded) in which case the PI attorney that brought the case and advanced valuable time and filing fees and other costs [hundreds of dollars minimum] takes nothing. The contingent fee system in many ways acts as an effective claim treage mechanism since a PI attorney that files a lot of 'dogs' will end up filing a bankruptcy petition for himself...

 

With the rampant antipathy for injury claimants and attorneys (as seen right on this board) it's completely a myth that when jurors get called, they're all Pro Plaintiff. Hardly. Jurors are pretty darned cautious and a PI attorney better be pretty darned confident of the case to take it to trial. The typical medical malpractice case costs the plaintiff attorney over $50K in advanced costs (not including time) and the national stat is in favor of the doctor at trial (defense verdicts 85% of the time). In most regions jurors are as skeptical as the posters on CC.

 

It is interesting how often I've had clients claim they're being sued by a 'frivolous' claimant, yet right off the bat I see (very unfrivolous) client liability and I haven't even heard the plaintiff side. (I'm most active in construction disputes) Then we usually whittle down the claimant till they're as miserable as the defendant and fair resolution occurs.

 

No, the PI bar has a flamboyant streak that's misunderstood, but they have a proper rightful place. Abraham Lincoln wasn't a bad egg (he was a PI lawyer).

[woodofpine]

To Woodofpine:

 

Just out of curiosity, what type of law do you practice? I do not mean to flame or disrespect, just genuinely curious.

 

Some real estate finance (transactional) and a fair amount of litigation, these days primarily real estate and construction. In the past, I've represented both plaintiffs and defendants in injury cases, and long ago some jury trials in criminal defense.

 

You know, as a country with some failings and many superlatives, we shouldn't loose sight of the fact that our legal system is the envy of the world.

[custompcsys]

Some real estate finance (transactional) and a fair amount of litigation, these days primarily real estate and construction. In the past, I've represented both plaintiffs and defendants in injury cases, and long ago some jury trials in criminal defense.

 

You know, as a country with some failings and many superlatives, we shouldn't loose sight of the fact that our legal system is the envy of the world.

 

Thanks for your response. I spent 10 years in mortgage banking and construction lending so I feel your pain :) While I may not necessarily agree with you, I always enjoy good-natured, well though out debate. Too often this board gets rather uncivil when people disagree, but this thread has managed to present opposing points of view while remaining civil and respectful.

 

Incidentally, I've gone to several of the art auctions and have actually purchased 3 pieces, never spending more than $300 including shipping (1 piece was $90) on any one piece. I don't look at them as investments, I simply look at them as something I like that will remind me of the cruise each time I look at it, and that I have a need for to fill an empty space on my wall. If I buy one piece I'm done for the cruise. Its basically like buying a souvenir to me, and I only buy if I would have purchased something on land to fill that space anyway. The auctions themselves are entertaining to watch, and they give out free champagne :) I get a kick out of watching these on-board art directors and seeing how full of themselves they are, and seeing what the highest price one of these lunatics...errrrrr....passengers is willing to pay for a so-called investment grade piece. So far the record I have seen is $35,000. Better him than me :)

[ssminnow]

I'm glad this lawyer didn't get wind of my little mishap!

[custompcsys]

I'm glad this lawyer didn't get wind of my little mishap!

 

ROFL! :D

 

I agree, Mr. Sachs would have gone after the Skipper and Gilligan in a heartbeat! :)

[Tom O.]

I know there was a gentleman who unfortunately suffered a heart attack and died as a result of the Star Princess fire, but this is the first time I've heard of someone who died in the Crown tilt.

 

A quick Google search brought up multiple articles, none of which said anything about a death.

 

It looks like the writer of the article made an error and got these two incidents mixed up - attributing the death to the tilt instead of the fire.

Easy mistake to make, but a better writter would have double checked his facts. Since these incidents are not the main gist of the article it does not detract too much. The article is from the Long Beach Press Telegram - my hometown newspaper. The Press Telegram is a local newspaper and often contains errors like this, but at least they are not intentional or intended to sway your opinion.

 

I am enjoying the lively debate over lawyers, but I think stay away from this issue, so I won't get my fingers singed.

[blindrid]

I really do not understand how this could happen. My understanding was that the art, for the most part, was original work and was sold for well below wholsale. Glad I did not make that so called 'investment'. Thanks Princess.

 

I guess my question on this one is who establishing wholesale or retail? The artist and/or the market (whatever that is).

[woodofpine]

I never realized folks were dropping $35,000-$75,000 or the like on art on a ship! (Silly me! Sillier them!) Given the fast talk of it, I'm not surprised that the occassional suit arises. In 'Gods Waiting Room' (FL) it reminds me of the fixed income seniors that drop $50,000 - $100,000 at the mall Organ retailer on the promise that they'll learn to play like... Liberace! :D OOPS! Or the lonely heart 80ish widow in my area that dropped several hundred thousand dollars over a couple years at a famous national dance studio chain on the coo-ed promises of young dance instructors that she had the makings of an international ballroom dance champion! :eek: OWW!

 

My wife LOVES the art auctions! And, my younger kids like them too! They have some (limited) educational value, but to me, its entertainment like the casino. (Impulsive nonsense) I buy as many chips as I'm comfortable losing then I guage my success on how long it takes to get cleaned out! A successful ship art auction is when you buy zilch! In the casino, though, they never imply that you are making a 'Good Investment'.

[smoosh21]

I never realized folks were dropping $35,000-$75,000 or the like on art on a ship! (Silly me! Sillier them!) Given the fast talk of it, I'm not surprised that the occassional suit arises. In 'Gods Waiting Room' (FL) it reminds me of the fixed income seniors that drop $50,000 - $100,000 at the mall Organ retailer on the promise that they'll learn to play like... Liberace! :D OOPS! Or the lonely heart 80ish widow in my area that dropped several hundred thousand dollars over a couple years at a famous national dance studio chain on the coo-ed promises of young dance instructors that she had the makings of an international ballroom dance champion! :eek: OWW!

 

My wife LOVES the art auctions! And, my younger kids like them too! They have some (limited) educational value, but to me, its entertainment like the casino. (Impulsive nonsense) I buy as many chips as I'm comfortable losing then I guage my success on how long it takes to get cleaned out! A successful ship art auction is when you buy zilch! In the casino, though, they never imply that you are making a 'Good Investment'.

 

They often give out those free prints too, although I think it is laughable when they put the value of those giveaways at $50 or more.

[iancal]

I suspect that many people spend more time looking at the frame than they do the art. Hard sell, free 'champagne', and free prints and up to one thing-high margins and excessive pricing. Buyer beware.