Eliminate Formal Night?

[jkudzu]

How about this solution on formal nights:

 

1.) Early Dining Seating = resort casual dress

 

2.) Late Dining Seating = formal dress

 

NOW, everyone can enjoy the main dining room

everyone can dress how they feel most comfortable

no one has to be relegated to the buffet.

That is an excellent idea! But I'm sure there'd be someone complaining that they had to eat early or late. It's still a great idea though.:)

[bakechef]

But you're INSIDE in a an air conditioned dining room where many woman wear a wrap because it's so cool, not out on a hot deck for a barbeque.:D :D :D

 

I don't know if you have noticed, but the formal wear that ladies get away with can be very light and airy, very appropriate for a tropical climate. What men are expected to wear to be formal are much heavier, tee shirt, dress shirt, vest (optional) and jacket (lined). Add to that long pants and even in an air conditioned room this can get hot, because the air conditioning isn't penetrating all of those clothes, those clothes are holding in the body heat. Add to that, many suits and tuxedos that are affordable are made of synthetic fabric making them even hotter.

 

I found myself uncomfortably warm in a long sleeve button up shirt in the dining room, add a jacket, and I would have been quite miserable.:)

 

MAC

[iheartbda]

I don't know if you have noticed, but the formal wear that ladies get away with can be very light and airy, very appropriate for a tropical climate.

MAC

 

Of course I've noticed.:rolleyes:

 

DH is one of the hottest males around ....wears as little around the house without being x-rated.:p First cruise he moaned, grumbled,and belly-ached about having to take a suit. Second cruise, I never said a word, he said, "IT'S TUX TIME." He says if it indicates formal, he will dress formally and he was never miserable.

 

There's no reason that formal night should be dropped simply because there are people who don't enjoy it for whatever reason. Why should those who DO enjoy it be denied the experience?

[Lancer525]

I've been following this thread with some interest...

 

As I see it, this really isn't about "formal night" at all. It is about cultural and social rules. Today's younger people (mostly the under-35's or so) don't really have the benefit of any education in etiquette, or social skills, or much of anything involving interaction with others, as they are too concerned with themselves and what they think they're entitled to from society. Before anyone takes offense at this statement, let me qualify it by saying that it is not a blanket generalization. It is, however, an observation I make, after watching people, in public venues, that fits a majority of those younger people. Are there people in this age-range, and younger, that this statement does not fit? Yes. Are there older people that this statement does fit? Yes. So if this doesn't apply to you, don't get your steam up.

 

A moment ago, I wrote, "what they think they're entitled to from society." That statement, in and of itself, is, as I perceive it, the root of the problem. No one is "entitled" to anything, without first paying the debt to society we all owe, which is treating our fellow human beings with polite courtesy. Today's younger people don't think that way, because they were reared by parents who rebelled against that cultural and social value. They perceive formality as old-fashioned, outdated, and stuffy pretentiousness. What they don't understand is, they don't have either the right to make that judgment, or the experience of having paid their "social dues" to be able to express it. I see this on a near-daily basis, that today's population is so self-centered and selfish, that they will literally step over someone in the street, if it is inconvenient to stop and politely interact. Ask a schoolteacher how many of his or her students say "please", "thank you", or "may I?" and you'll see what I mean. Formality is going the way of the Dodo, because it is a supreme expression of suppressing one's self to conform to societal requirement. Are tuxedos really that comfortable? Heck no, they aren't! Why do we wear them then? Because there are certain situations where it is not only required, but demanded that we set aside our own personal comfort, for the benefit of the greater society. That isn't stuffy or pompous, or even supercilious. It is merely proper behavior under the circumstances.

 

The concept of formality is dying out because the rules of civilization and culture are no longer being passed along to the younger generations. My grandmother went on a cruise to the Bahamas in the early 1970s, on the MS Windward, I believe, and the one photo I have of that cruise is her at a formal dinner, seated at the Captain's table. In her day, when she was my age, World War II had just ended, and the rules of societal interaction were adhered to much more strictly. There were accepted behaviors that were taught to children, such as not interrupting adults, asking for things politely by always saying "please", not addressing adults by their given name, and so forth. Children were much more well-behaved. Gentlemen still opened doors for ladies, pulled out chairs at the table, and tipped their hats on the street. Ladies acted with grace, gentility, and decorum. It was considered a mark of sophistication and culture to dress for dinner. It was what society deemed acceptable, and anything that ran counter to that was frowned upon. Today, our children's role models are Amy Winehouse, Britney Spears, Michael Vick, Pete Doherty, Snoop Dogg, and the like. We are all bombarded in the tabloids with celebrity antics that even 30 years ago would have been utterly revolting. And it diminishes us all.

 

I vividly remember an incident when I was 5 years old, where I was out with my mother and my great-grandmother. I recall as if it were yesterday, seeing another young boy in the store where we were. He was running down the aisle, unattended, yelling, and pulling things off shelves. I remember my great-grandmother leaning down and telling me, "Honey, that just isn't done. That's poor breeding." The impression that statement made on me at that age, showed me that the more cultured, civilized, and well-mannered one was, the higher it indicated their level of intelligence, education, and social sense to be. Breeding tells, the saying used to be. I heard both my great-grandmother and grandmother say that dozens if not hundreds of times.

 

Today's younger people are the children of the "Me Generation" of the 1960s and 1970s. They are a product of a generation of individuals who think that looking out for others is a weakness, that being polite is spineless, and that following the RULES of etiquette and proper social behavior is outdated and pretentious. Notice that I capitalized the word "rules". I did that for a reason, because whether or not we like it, whether or not we believe it, and whether or not we even accept it, there are rules for proper public behavior. As my great grandmother would have said, there are things that just aren't done. And by implication, there are things that must be done, regardless of our personal feelings on the matter. One of those things that is falling by the wayside is public social etiquette. I have seen some posts here that have said, "It's my vacation, and I'll do what I want." Actually, unless you are on your vacation completely alone, you have the obligation to behave properly in public. If that means dressing for dinner, then that is what you must do. I have also seen some posts say, "if you don't like the rules on the cruise you chose, then don't go on it". In a way, that is how it should be. People who have proper education in social etiquette, good social skills, politeness, and who display civilized manners do not go anywhere, especially somewhere they CHOSE to go, and then complain about the restrictions placed upon them. That just isn't done. It is poor behavior. It is, and should be, socially unacceptable.

 

I am by no means, a pillar of Emily Post strictness, but every single day I see the same things happening. The same decline of proper social etiquette and public decorum. An example that occurs at least three times a week: I go into a store, whether it be an upscale mall, a grocery, or a Wal-Mart, and I pause at the front door to allow a woman pass into the store before me. If there isn't an automatic door, I open it for her. That's just polite behavior, as I was reared to understand it. And almost every time I get this odd look from these women, as if I have somehow harmed them by being polite. In the past year, I cannot remember ever being thanked for holding a door open for another person. In fact, I once went to visit my father at his workplace, and attempted to hold a door for a woman, only to have her stop, glare at me, and tell me in a voice dripping with disdain, that she "hoped I wasn't holding that door for her just because she was a woman." I wish I'd thought of it at the time, to say, No, ma'am. I wasn't doing it because you are a woman. I am doing it because I am a gentleman.

 

Formal night on a cruise is one of the last vestiges of cultured, civilized, polite, proper social interaction, and to do away with it is nothing more than a tacit acknowledgment that we are no longer a cultured, civilized, polite society.

 

It starts with all of us, folks. The less polite and less socially proper we are, especially when given the chance to be, the more we are contributing to the slow decline of society. You may think that an egregious overstatement, you may think me pompous and stuffy, and you might even think the entire sentiment to be an exceptionally inflated statement. And you'd be wrong if you thought any or all of those things. A similar decline in social etiquette and decorum was one of the contributing factors to the fall of the Roman Empire. Think I'm wrong? You're entitled to your opinion, and I will do the socially gracious and polite thing, and gleefully permit you to express your opinion. In fact, I publicly support your right to express your opinion, on the condition that there is no ad hominiem attack in it.

 

We all have a responsibility to each other, whether we like it or not. Whether or not we admit it, believe it, or even accept it, we have the OBLIGATION to follow those rules of social interaction. We have an obligation to each other to treat one another with polite, civil, and socially-correct behavior. For if we do not, we are no better than a pack of clothed apes. The one thing that sets us above the remainder of the animal kingdom, is that we are reasoning, sentient beings, with standardized rules of social interaction, culture, and civilization.

 

Do away with Formal Night? You might as well be saying that you want to do away with society at large. Why? Because we are an advanced, socially-conscious, polite, cultured society. If we do not live up to our obligations, why should our children? If they do not live up to their obligations, then you have the beginnings of an uncontrollable descent into anarchy and the collapse of society in general. If we do not fulfill our obligations to society's rules, we are failing our society, and each other.

[Sundagger]

Lancer - an interesting, well-phrased position. I agree with it, but I'm sure I'm in the distinct minority.

 

I'm surprised at your next cruise - I would have expected you to be on Cunard, HAL, or Celebrity.:rolleyes:

[DAGVBSB]

Lancer, I agree with 95% of what you are saying... all but the last paragraph.

 

Let me take you one step further from my personal experience... the problem today is that parents don't want to be bothered with their kids or take interest in their kids. They want to put what they want to do (the "me" factor that you talk about) first. They don't want their kids to get in their way and as a result, the kids don't really learn anything.

 

I know I am about to tick people off, but let me share some examples taken from those on these boards:

1.) Parents today think nothing of taking their kids out of school for a vacation or a cruise. The excuses you hear: "it's cheaper." "it's less crowded" Well of course it is... kids are supposed to be in school! Parents think that by gathering up homework ahead of time, the kids won't lose out on anything... WRONG. Nothing beats personal instruction. (and on top of that I have had kids take homework on vacations and never do it!)

I had a student a few years ago who went on a 2 week cruise every year in October. Teachers gathered and gave him work to do. He never did it and he fell behind the classes. His parents came in to complain about him failing for the grading period. All the teachers said the same thing about no make-up work from the trip. His parents excuse: they didn't have time to sit with him and make him do his work!

 

2.) Parents don't know where their kids are! I had to tell my parents (in the 70's) where I was going and when I was going to be home. If I saw I was going to be late... I had to get to a phone and call them.

 

3.) Parents don't talk to their kids about school work and check on them to make sure they are doing the work.

I wrote a progress report a couple years ago: "(name of student) does great (90%) on his tests and quizes but since he does not do his homework or in class assignments, he is failing." The parents response on the report: "did you ever think your tests might be too hard?" (I kept that one....)

 

4.) Look at some of the threads on the boards on Cruise Critic... how many threads are there talking about the kids club hours. How many of those are complaints because the kids club is not open all the time. How many threads are whines from people because they have to take their kids to dinner with them? They want to dump off their kids on someone else so that they can have time for themselves! SPEND TIME WITH YOUR KIDS WHILE ON VACATION!

Of course this "dump the kids" mentality is prevelant throughout society. I work gates at our football games in a large community. We love to sit at the gate and watch all of the mini vans pull up and then 6 middle school kids jump out and the "taxi driver" parent of the evening says: "I will pick you up at 10" or "call me when the game is over." (the games are usually over by 9:30!!) Then all those kids come in and the police and athletic staff have to supervise them. They run around, block traffic and don't watch the game. We have a no passes out policy... they simply leave and then buy another $3 ticket. (I have seen kids blow $20 on in/out). A couple years ago, the school attempted to pass a new policy mandating that all unsupervised kids had to be in the bleachers. (to clear the walkways and stop the running) The school got inundated by calls from angry parents who were upset over the new policy because now "my kid doesn't want to go to the games on Friday night and will have nothing to do." (ummm, maybe have some "family time," Oh thats right... he/she interferes with YOUR fun.)

 

 

Granted, I agree with Lancer's assesment that kids today aren't being taught well by their parents..... but I think it is deeper than that... it is the fact that the younger parents today would rather get rid of the kids so they don't interfere with the "me" factor.

 

 

I also think it is more than just under 35. Too many people today aren't willing to wait their turn. They are always looking for ways to get ahead of others already waiting ahead of them... they are more important than the others... (ever seen someone pass a stopped lane of traffic by driving on a berm.. or rushing ahead as lanes are ending to beat the other cars?)

 

Finally, people have no respect for RULES. Rules are meant to be followed by ALL, not just the rules that you want to follow. The Formal night dress code is no different. I hate the formal night dress code BUT at the same time, it is a RULE on the ship. Yes, I could easily try to get in the main dining room on formal night on my upcoming cruise... BUT I'M NOT. I am choosing to not dress up and as a result, I plan on eating in the buffet or specialty restaurant that night. Why... because rules are for everyone!

 

Look at the threads on these boards in regards to rule violating... how many "how do I sneak alcohol" on board threads are there? Everyone who does that is part of the "me" problem. The rule is no alcohol is to be brought on board, but because we don't like that rule, we want to put it in mouthwash bottles or try other methods to sneak it on. So, if you are an alcohol sneaker... then you are part of the problem that Lancer is talking about.

 

We also all want something for nothing. There is a thread raging over on the NCL board right now.... someone booked a cruise after final payment date and is upset that they had to pay the whole thing. Then they want a $400 refund because the price has dropped two weeks before sailing! Once again... they want something for nothing. Or the recent "banned" cruiser from RCCL.... she wanted to complain about everything in an attempt to get freebies from the cruise line. Again.... something for nothing.

 

I too hold doors for ladies and say please and thank you. Just the other day we were entering a gift shop at our local zoo. The lady ahead of me was pushing a handicapped child in a wheelchair. Two 20 something ladies were entereing ahead of her. She called ahead and asked them to hold the door for her. They looked at her and just walked on in. I quickly spoke up and said that I would get it and the lady let me pass. I even helped lift the chair over the raised threshhold. But again, it just points to the same old story... the ladies couldn't be bothered to help someone else because it interfered with what they wanted to do.

 

Like I said, I don't agree with Lancer's last paragraph... I don't think the elimination of formal night will be the end of polite society. Society has changed alot over the years and similar changes have occured and it hasn't ruined us. (powdered wigs for example, offering snuff or a cigar to male guests, even our clothing... people said that by shortening ladies skirts, it would ruin polite society... and that was when they went above the ANKLES, how barbaric!)

[MNfamilycruiser]

Lancer, I agree with 95% of what you are saying... all but the last paragraph....

 

 

 

 

Finally, people have no respect for RULES. Rules are meant to be followed by ALL, not just the rules that you want to follow. The Formal night dress code is no different. I hate the formal night dress code BUT at the same time, it is a RULE on the ship. Yes, I could easily try to get in the main dining room on formal night on my upcoming cruise... BUT I'M NOT. I am choosing to not dress up and as a result, I plan on eating in the buffet or specialty restaurant that night. Why... because rules are for everyone!

 

Look at the threads on these boards in regards to rule violating... how many "how do I sneak alcohol" on board threads are there? Everyone who does that is part of the "me" problem. The rule is no alcohol is to be brought on board, but because we don't like that rule, we want to put it in mouthwash bottles or try other methods to sneak it on. So, if you are an alcohol sneaker... then you are part of the problem that Lancer is talking about.

 

 

I also agree with much of what you have said - however, here is the point on which we differ. On many cruise lines - formal dress is no longer a RULE, it is SUGGESTED attire and to me a suggestion is an entirely different situation -

sug·gest

tr.v. sug·gest·ed, sug·gest·ing, sug·gests

1. To offer for consideration or action; propose: suggest things for children to do; suggested that we take a walk.

2. To bring or call to mind by logic or association; evoke: a cloud that suggests a mushroom; a ringlike symbol suggesting unity.

3. To make evident indirectly; intimate or imply: a silence that suggested disapproval.

4. To serve as or provide a motive for; prompt or demand: Such a crime suggests apt punishment.

(I am not trying to be rude by posting the definition - but I think the different meanings really show what the cruise line is doing by suggesting formal attire.)

 

If it were a rule - I would follow it. There are rules concerning bringing alcohol and other beverages on board - sometimes enforced, sometimes not. I will follow those rules whether they are enforced or not. I will follow the rules about shorts, bathing attire etc. in the dining room. I will probably go with formal attire on other cruises, at other times - but not this time due to consideration for the other people I am travelling with.

 

Sometime in the past, many cruise lines DID change what was a rule - to a suggestion. Why? - there might be some troubling trends behind that decision - but the fact is, they did it. To me, it is kind of like when they raised the speed limit on some freeways here to 65 or 70 mph - I could still travel at 55 (and under certain conditions I still do) but I am now free to travel faster. When I need to, I do. Same with following the suggested attire - if it works out - I will follow the suggestion. But I am free to choose not to if needed.

[pipedreams62]

I just got back from a back to back Alaskan Cruise. The northbound trip everyone was dressed for the dining room,even on non formal nights. It was nice to see. The next 7 days (the southbound trip) I would call it

 

"The Clampetts Go Cruising"

 

I saw baseball caps on backwards,in the dining room,and numerous people with jeans and suspenders (no not the Larry King kind) about 4 inch wide.Like a sales associate at Home Depot would wear. This outfit was then finished off with sandals and white socks.

 

I could swear I've seen this guy on my my TV at 4am trying to sell me a lure that "Catches The Big Uns" but I never expected to see him in the dining room.

[iheartbda]

I'll come in on the heels of Lancer, DAVGBSB, and MNfamilycruiser, all of whom I agree with on your points but have a slightly differing opinion, interpretation, take, etc. on one thing.:)

 

I look at the rule versus suggestion a little differently. My feeling is if the cruise lines suggest the formal attire, that is how they would like to see people dressed or perhaps the suggestions are for those who have no idea what constitutes formal attire. Why have any suggestions at all, i.e. formal, informal, country club casual, elegant of whatever any of the classifications are being called? Don't say a word and let everyone dress any they they please? Afterall, it's MY vacation, I paid for it and I'll do as I please?:rolleyes:

 

MNfamilycruiser, like you said, "you are free to choose not to if need be and I'm assuming you mean dress formally." That choice exists for everyone but then they complain that they can't eat in the dining room. They want the formality, cloth napkins, wine glasses, nicely dressed waiters, but don't want to dress to match the ambiance.

 

Two dining rooms or at least areas could be a solution but what would the outcry be if the casual part was also casually outfitted, no tableclothes, waiters in shorts and tropical shorts, etc.?:p

 

We have always gone on lines which had defined formal nights. This year because of itinerary we are going on a "more casual" line. Even though they say you can dress formally if you like, the gowns and the tux will not make an appearance. I know we would be in the definite minority and would feel out of place. From some of the comments that have been made across the boards about people who dress up, I would be wondering if others would think we are wannabes, playing dress up, trying to be someone we are not,etc. I know that shouldn't bother me but it does.:)

[MNfamilycruiser]

I'll come in on the heels of Lancer, DAVGBSB, and MNfamilycruiser, all of whom I agree with on your points but have a slightly differing opinion, interpretation, take, etc. on one thing.:)

 

I look at the rule versus suggestion a little differently. My feeling is if the cruise lines suggest the formal attire, that is how they would like to see people dressed or perhaps the suggestions are for those who have no idea what constitutes formal attire. Why have any suggestions at all, i.e. formal, informal, country club casual, elegant of whatever any of the classifications are being called? Don't say a word and let everyone dress any they they please? Afterall, it's MY vacation, I paid for it and I'll do as I please?:rolleyes:

 

MNfamilycruiser, like you said, "you are free to choose not to if need be and I'm assuming you mean dress formally." That choice exists for everyone but then they complain that they can't eat in the dining room. They want the formality, cloth napkins, wine glasses, nicely dressed waiters, but don't want to dress to match the ambiance.

 

Two dining rooms or at least areas could be a solution but what would the outcry be if the casual part was also casually outfitted, no tableclothes, waiters in shorts and tropical shorts, etc.?:p

 

We have always gone on lines which had defined formal nights. This year because of itinerary we are going on a "more casual" line. Even though they say you can dress formally if you like, the gowns and the tux will not make an appearance. I know we would be in the definite minority and would feel out of place. From some of the comments that have been made across the boards about people who dress up, I would be wondering if others would think we are wannabes, playing dress up, trying to be someone we are not,etc. I know that shouldn't bother me but it does.:)

I don't know about others - but I wouldn't complain about the less formal ambiance. :D I have more practical reasons for wanting to dine in the MDR even if I am not in formal attire.

 

As a mother of 2 younger children, and part of a group (8 people) the MDR works MUCH better for us than the buffet. Sitting and relaxing and being served, talking all together as a group (we don't necessarily stay together throughout the day or evening - dinner is the one time we are all together) - that is a big part of the enjoyment of the cruise for us. My mother CAN'T eat at the buffet due to food allergies, my cousin and her dd DO NOT have formal attire, and really don't want any (no place to wear it after the cruise).

 

The reality of dealing with the needs of a large group means we are compromising. I am just happy we are with a cruise line (RC) that does not have "rules" for dressing (and they obviously don't enforce the suggested dress).

 

I love to see people in formal dress - I think they look wonderful - and would not have any negative opinions because they are "dressed up". We have done it before (wear formal attire) , and will likely do it again another time. There probably are those who have those extreme opinions - but I hope they are few and far between!

[momofmeg]

But I'm out on my balcony drinking my cocktail before dinner and it's too hot! :)

 

Don't dress until you are ready to leave for dinner. Or better yet-why not order room service and eat on your balcony and skip formal night all together since you hate it.

 

There are options for those who hate formal night.

[G'ma]

I had the same experience on my first Carnival cruise last year, it was probably the most formal cruise that I had seen in a while. No frat parties either.

 

MAC

 

That "frat party" comment always gets me laughing. Here, from the "About" website:

 

Carnival Cruise Lines Passenger Profile:

 

Carnival has packaged a cruise experience that appeals to active cruisers of all ages.Although many think the ships' "fun" image is geared to the young, the average passenger's age is 45+. Carnival is a good choice for first time cruisers, couples, singles, and multi-generational families looking for a good time, glamorous surroundings and glitzy entertainment. Anyone looking for a quiet cruise with lots of personal attention should probably look elsewhere.

 

Frat party, indeed!!! Poor Carnival....30 years later and they can't shake the reputation they garnered in the 1970's. Interestingly enough, it seems to be those who have never stepped foot on a Carnival ship (or at least since the '70's) who have this observation. I say "great".... stay away.

[Papasaurus]

I will be wearing a nice sport coat, slacks, dress shirt and tie. In the eyes of the truly formal dressers is that going to be considered tacky dress attire for elegant night. Are there more tuxes that sport coats?

[G'ma]

I will be wearing a nice sport coat, slacks, dress shirt and tie. In the eyes of the truly formal dressers is that going to be considered tacky dress attire for elegant night. Are there more tuxes that sport coats?

 

You will be fine. On formal night, you'll see some in tuxes, some in white formal dinner jackets, some in dark suits, some in what you are wearing, some in military uniforms or Scottish regalia or other native dress.

 

The whole point is "formal" as opposed to slacks and a polo shirt with sneakers or Dockers. The majority of the passengers will make the effort to dress nicely on those special occasions. It's only the "me,me,me" folks who will show up in their favorite jeans and sports shirt or dress more appropriate to shore excursions or a trip to the local pizzeria... Believe me, they are in the minority and they stick out like a sore thumb.

[bakechef]

Of course I've noticed.:rolleyes:

 

DH is one of the hottest males around ....wears as little around the house without being x-rated.:p First cruise he moaned, grumbled,and belly-ached about having to take a suit. Second cruise, I never said a word, he said, "IT'S TUX TIME." He says if it indicates formal, he will dress formally and he was never miserable.

 

There's no reason that formal night should be dropped simply because there are people who don't enjoy it for whatever reason. Why should those who DO enjoy it be denied the experience?

 

Maybe you misunderstood my post, I don't care for formal night but I also don't feel that it should necessarily be eliminated, because I understand many people enjoy it.

 

What I mean is that many talk about how the dining room is air conditioned, but wearing a formal suit or tuxedo, it sure doesn't feel like it, don't people often put more clothes on to get warm?;) That is exactly what happens when I put on a suit, I may run a little hotter than most but I bet many agree. I have sweat my way through my share of formal nights, and am psyched not to have to any more on Carnival.:)

 

MAC

[AmoMondo]

It's one of my favourite oarts of a cruise. There are plenty cruiselines that do casual all the time if people prefer that. I'd be gutted if they were done away with. Just love the opportunity to wear an evening gown. I would not go on a cruise that did not have them. the more the better as far as I'm concerned

[bakechef]

I've been following this thread with some interest...

 

As I see it, this really isn't about "formal night" at all. It is about cultural and social rules. Today's younger people (mostly the under-35's or so) don't really have the benefit of any education in etiquette, or social skills, or much of anything involving interaction with others, as they are too concerned with themselves and what they think they're entitled to from society. Before anyone takes offense at this statement, let me qualify it by saying that it is not a blanket generalization. It is, however, an observation I make, after watching people, in public venues, that fits a majority of those younger people. Are there people in this age-range, and younger, that this statement does not fit? Yes. Are there older people that this statement does fit? Yes. So if this doesn't apply to you, don't get your steam up.

 

A moment ago, I wrote, "what they think they're entitled to from society." That statement, in and of itself, is, as I perceive it, the root of the problem. No one is "entitled" to anything, without first paying the debt to society we all owe, which is treating our fellow human beings with polite courtesy. Today's younger people don't think that way, because they were reared by parents who rebelled against that cultural and social value. They perceive formality as old-fashioned, outdated, and stuffy pretentiousness. What they don't understand is, they don't have either the right to make that judgment, or the experience of having paid their "social dues" to be able to express it. I see this on a near-daily basis, that today's population is so self-centered and selfish, that they will literally step over someone in the street, if it is inconvenient to stop and politely interact. Ask a schoolteacher how many of his or her students say "please", "thank you", or "may I?" and you'll see what I mean. Formality is going the way of the Dodo, because it is a supreme expression of suppressing one's self to conform to societal requirement. Are tuxedos really that comfortable? Heck no, they aren't! Why do we wear them then? Because there are certain situations where it is not only required, but demanded that we set aside our own personal comfort, for the benefit of the greater society. That isn't stuffy or pompous, or even supercilious. It is merely proper behavior under the circumstances.

 

I'll pare down this long winded essay of bologna.

 

How in the heck does wearing a tuxedo benefit the greater society?

 

I do agree on some points, but this is one of the most ridiculous things I have read in a while.

 

Donating time to charity, treating people with dignity and respect, truly loving someone, these are a few examples of benefiting society, I don't see where a tuxedo would, maybe to someone who is superficial it would.

 

Will I dress in a suit out of respect when attending a funeral, wedding, graduation or an awards show? Yes I would but that would be out of respect for the person who invited me. Do I think that dressing up to eat in a cruise ship dining room deserves the same respect NO, this is not about respect, these people want a special occasion to get dressed up, and that's fine, but I shouldn't be told to eat at a buffet, because I am without a tie and jacket, that would be disrespectful.

 

I do feel that many of the current young generation are spoiled and self centered, that comes from being raised in a society of excess with parents who cannot say NO.

 

I am excited to live in a time where people question the status quo, and don't just walk around like robots doing things just because someone told them that it was proper, men used to wear white powder wigs, and ladies wore dresses with hoops and bound with corsets because that is what a proper gentleman and lady would do, sounds pretty silly to me.

 

If you enjoy dressing formal, do so. If you don't have the confidence to dress formally when the majority is more casual, than I feel sorry for you, but that shouldn't be MY problem.

 

MAC

[iheartbda]

Maybe you misunderstood my post, I don't care for formal night but I also don't feel that it should necessarily be eliminated, because I understand many people enjoy it.

MAC

 

I guess we have mutual misunderstanding here.;)

My statement and question about dropping formal night were general ones, not directed at you.:)

[Lancer525]

I'll pare down this long winded essay of bologna.

 

You just forfeited your entire position. I noted that I would support any opinions expressed, and gleefully approve of them, provided there were no attacks... And here you go, attacking. Tsk, tsk...

 

How in the heck does wearing a tuxedo benefit the greater society?

If you have to ask...

 

I do agree on some points, but this is one of the most ridiculous things I have read in a while.

Once again, an attack.

 

Donating time to charity, treating people with dignity and respect, truly loving someone, these are a few examples of benefiting society, I don't see where a tuxedo would, maybe to someone who is superficial it would.

Willfully ignoring the point isn't contributing to the discussion.

 

To explain it in more simple terms: If you voluntarily choose to sidestep, ignore, and willfully violate the rules of polite society, you concede your right to be a part of it. The rules of polite society do not allow people to pick and choose which ones they will follow, and which ones they will ignore.

 

Will I dress in a suit out of respect when attending a funeral, wedding, graduation or an awards show? Yes I would but that would be out of respect for the person who invited me. Do I think that dressing up to eat in a cruise ship dining room deserves the same respect NO, this is not about respect, these people want a special occasion to get dressed up, and that's fine, but I shouldn't be told to eat at a buffet, because I am without a tie and jacket, that would be disrespectful.

You are belaboring a point unrelated to my original statement. You are arguing a red herring. This is a matter of accepting and conforming to the rules of polite society, as they currently stand. Those rules dictate that when one is expected to behave in a specific manner, one does so. Your statement brings in other variables and lines of argument that do not correlate to the original statement.

 

I am excited to live in a time where people question the status quo, and don't just walk around like robots doing things just because someone told them that it was proper, men used to wear white powder wigs, and ladies wore dresses with hoops and bound with corsets because that is what a proper gentleman and lady would do, sounds pretty silly to me.

Non sequitur.

 

No one has suggested that "questioning the status quo" is at issue. No one has suggested that "people walk around like robots because someone told them it was proper". Least of all me. You are both poisoning the well, and committing the fallacy of false logic by saying these things.

 

The issue is a lack of proper social behavior, because it is what SOCIETY says is proper, and not the questioning of these rules. It is not what one person says, but the entire set of rules that we all are supposed to follow. You are clearly stating that only you pick and choose the laws, rules, and regulations you follow. You are demonstrating that you only follow the rules you like.

 

Again, if you have to ask, you don't get it.

 

If you enjoy dressing formal, do so. If you don't have the confidence to dress formally when the majority is more casual, than I feel sorry for you, but that shouldn't be MY problem.

It is as much "your problem" as it is everyone else's, if you choose to be a part of, and to interact with polite society. By choosing to be a part of it, you are agreeing to be bound by its rules of proper behavior, whether you like it or not.

 

And again, for the third time, you have chosen to be snide, supercilious and to attack. You have no idea whether I "lack the confidence" to dress formally or not. You have absolutely less than no right whatsoever to make any judgments about me, just because you feel the urge to dismiss my statement because it conflicts with your personal beliefs. You certainly demonstrate your ignorance and your predilection to denigrate and belittle those who disagree with you. Your "feeling sorry for me" is condescending, arrogant, and uncalled for.

 

While you are entitled to your opinion, I am convinced that you have shown, all by yourself, that it is meritless, as you have chosen to make personal attacks while you argue something else entirely.

 

You sir, are no Gentleman.

[Lancer525]

Lancer, I agree with 95% of what you are saying... all but the last paragraph.

 

I don't think the elimination of formal night will be the end of polite society. Society has changed alot over the years and similar changes have occured and it hasn't ruined us. (powdered wigs for example, offering snuff or a cigar to male guests, even our clothing... people said that by shortening ladies skirts, it would ruin polite society... and that was when they went above the ANKLES, how barbaric!)

 

Let's expand for a moment, if we can, and take a look at this... You say "Society has changed alot over the years, and similar changes have occurred and it hasn't ruined us." Given the state of society today, and comparing it to the days when one could leave one's front door unlocked without fear of home invasion, one could walk down the street in the evening without fear of being mugged, and all of the other social ills that face us today, ranging from corrupt officials, drugs, violence, and many others, wouldn't you honestly say that we haven't all been slightly "ruined" by some of these changes?

 

I wouldn't say that it is carved in stone, but I certainly would debate the issue over a brandy in the lounge.

 

I believe that any diminution of the boundaries that the rules of society sets, is one more step along the road toward a dissolution of that society. They may not be very large steps, but they are steps nonetheless. However, having said that, you are far more accurate than I was, when you say that the elimination of formal night would be the end of polite society. Perhaps not the end, but just one more brick in the wall. I sit corrected.

 

I admire you greatly for choosing to enjoy yourself in your own way, by adhering to the recommended dress code, and for having the courage to step up and say some controversial things. I completely agree that there is too much self-centered behavior in today's society. All one has to do to see it is to go to a shopping center or mall. Everyone moves through the world as if they are the only one in it. I think that we, as a society at large, need to address that issue, or we will eventually descend into that anarchy. I'm sure you can see my point.

 

Thank you for such a great follow up reply! Exceptionally thought-provoking.

[Big Kielbasa]

Thanks for your post Lancer, you said it more eloquently then I ever could. I have posted on this subject and have maintained the same, the thwarting of the dress code is nothing more then the demise of todays society. As you noticed, the argument was very shallow and reverted to nothing more then name calling. That seems to be today's ploy, no discernible argument so I'll toss in a few insults. All his post showed me was a lack of education and tact. The bottom line is: don't want to dress up you can go to the buffet or order room service and allow those who respect tradition to do so.

[bakechef]

You just forfeited your entire position. I noted that I would support any opinions expressed, and gleefully approve of them, provided there were no attacks... And here you go, attacking. Tsk, tsk...

 

If you have to ask...

 

Once again, an attack.

 

Willfully ignoring the point isn't contributing to the discussion.

 

To explain it in more simple terms: If you voluntarily choose to sidestep, ignore, and willfully violate the rules of polite society, you concede your right to be a part of it. The rules of polite society do not allow people to pick and choose which ones they will follow, and which ones they will ignore.

 

You are belaboring a point unrelated to my original statement. You are arguing a red herring. This is a matter of accepting and conforming to the rules of polite society, as they currently stand. Those rules dictate that when one is expected to behave in a specific manner, one does so. Your statement brings in other variables and lines of argument that do not correlate to the original statement.

 

Non sequitur.

 

No one has suggested that "questioning the status quo" is at issue. No one has suggested that "people walk around like robots because someone told them it was proper". Least of all me. You are both poisoning the well, and committing the fallacy of false logic by saying these things.

 

The issue is a lack of proper social behavior, because it is what SOCIETY says is proper, and not the questioning of these rules. It is not what one person says, but the entire set of rules that we all are supposed to follow. You are clearly stating that only you pick and choose the laws, rules, and regulations you follow. You are demonstrating that you only follow the rules you like.

 

Again, if you have to ask, you don't get it.

 

It is as much "your problem" as it is everyone else's, if you choose to be a part of, and to interact with polite society. By choosing to be a part of it, you are agreeing to be bound by its rules of proper behavior, whether you like it or not.

 

And again, for the third time, you have chosen to be snide, supercilious and to attack. You have no idea whether I "lack the confidence" to dress formally or not. You have absolutely less than no right whatsoever to make any judgments about me, just because you feel the urge to dismiss my statement because it conflicts with your personal beliefs. You certainly demonstrate your ignorance and your predilection to denigrate and belittle those who disagree with you. Your "feeling sorry for me" is condescending, arrogant, and uncalled for.

 

While you are entitled to your opinion, I am convinced that you have shown, all by yourself, that it is meritless, as you have chosen to make personal attacks while you argue something else entirely.

 

You sir, are no Gentleman.

 

Glad that you are above attacking the opposition!;)

 

I didn't realize that cruise critic had the capacity to contain that amount of hot air.

 

Enjoy your cynical view of the world and of people, it must add endless hours of joy to your life.

 

You have made many assumptions about me with very little evidence to go on, is that rule of polite society, I think not. Most of the post was general, only the beginning was aimed at you.

 

good day

 

MAC

[bakechef]

Thanks for your post Lancer, you said it more eloquently then I ever could. I have posted on this subject and have maintained the same, the thwarting of the dress code is nothing more then the demise of todays society. As you noticed, the argument was very shallow and reverted to nothing more then name calling. That seems to be today's ploy, no discernible argument so I'll toss in a few insults. All his post showed me was a lack of education and tact. The bottom line is: don't want to dress up you can go to the buffet or order room service and allow those who respect tradition to do so.

 

Would someone with tact ever make such a statement?:rolleyes:

 

MAC

[bakechef]

I guess we have mutual misunderstanding here.;)

My statement and question about dropping formal night were general ones, not directed at you.:)

 

 

no problem.:D

 

MAC

[gin_runner]

I will be wearing a nice sport coat, slacks, dress shirt and tie. In the eyes of the truly formal dressers is that going to be considered tacky dress attire for elegant night. Are there more tuxes that sport coats?

 

A suit, a sportcoat and tie is more common than tuxes. Tuxes seem to account for maybe 1 out of 3 or 4 men on the cruises I've been on. No a tux is not required.