Hand sanitizing/cleaning

[jrw]

Same here. I wash my hands before going to the DR & never use the stuff they want to squirt on my hands. Since I know my hands are clean I dislike using the sanitizer.

Going to the buffet is a little different since I usually touch things along the way & probably pick up some germs in the process.

 

Yep, this is what we do as well.

 

As for what we touch while there, I bring along the little individual packaged wipes. You know, the kind they give out at restaurants that serve messy food. I bring a stash of them, and since I carry a large bag (have to w/my photo gear) it's no trouble to have them handy. I like this much better than the "gloppy" stuff, as another poster called it.

[Ephraim]

These hand sanitizers do NOTHING. Sure, they kill bacteria, both good and bad. They work on some enveloped viruses, but not on un-enveloped viruses. In fact, products like Lysol and triclosan don't really work either. Lysol even publishes that on their website (in the recesses of the website). The only reason for the hand sanitizers is... psychological. Even the CDC says so.

 

There is nothing that is better than washing your hands properly and not quickly and then drying your hands. What the lines should be doing is installing sinks along with soap as you walk into public areas, clearly visible so that people can see if you have or haven't washed your hands. (You should also wash your hands when you walk back into your cabin.)

 

As for triclosan, the antibacterial agent that they put into many antibacterial soaps, not only does it clean the useful bacterial on our body (and is suggested as one of the reasons MRSA has become problematic) but it also contributes PCBs to our water system. There are suggestions that it might also be the reason that whales are now the first animal outside of humans that gets breast cancer. And it is also clear that regular soap does just as good a job cleaning hands without damaging the environment.

[jlp20]

Here is the one product that I have found that actually claims to be effective against the Noro virus......

 

I hope this product does work.

 

But going to the website provided, I find vauge claims with no supporting studies.

 

About $7.00 plus shipping from England.

[Ephraim]

I hope this product does work.

 

But going to the website provided, I find vauge claims with no supporting studies.

 

About $7.00 plus shipping from England.

 

Actually, they are currently testing a product in Canada that is ethanol based and already tested to be effective. Apparently all you have to do after using it wait five minutes. Yup.... just five minutes before it's fully effective. Walking to the bathroom and washing your hands takes less time.

[leonadeb]

Sure as heck I'm going to get flammed for this, but I was unpleasantly surprised not to see anybody cleaning railings, elevators, etc. on the Pacific Princess. What shocked me even more was having cruised on another line you could not go anywhere near into a dining room or buffet without staff on either side of you offering you hand sanitizers....

 

:confused:I was surprised and confused at this as we had previously sailed on the Coral Princess and had the experience that you said you had on another line but when we sailed two different times on Royal Carribean we were shocked by their lack of using hand sanitizer. I wonder if it is more a product of whether there is a particularly higher threat of illness on a certain cruise then on which cruise line does what.

 

My daughter sailed NCL from Greece to Egypt last year and she said they were so strict about hand sanitizing that they wouldn't even let you dish out the buffet food on your own...the staff was handling all of that.

[BruceMuzz]

:confused:I was surprised and confused at this as we had previously sailed on the Coral Princess and had the experience that you said you had on another line but when we sailed two different times on Royal Carribean we were shocked by their lack of using hand sanitizer. I wonder if it is more a product of whether there is a particularly higher threat of illness on a certain cruise then on which cruise line does what.

 

My daughter sailed NCL from Greece to Egypt last year and she said they were so strict about hand sanitizing that they wouldn't even let you dish out the buffet food on your own...the staff was handling all of that.

 

Let's try this again and see if anyone is paying attention:

Do hand sanitizers really work? Yes and no.

 

Carnival Cruise Line had about the same number of NLV outbreaks as all the other mass market lines - until 2003.

Then they started removing hand sanitizers form their ships at the suggestion (not requirement) of the CDC.

From 2004 to today they have had a total of 6 NLV Outbreaks, the lowest in the industry.

 

HAL decided to ignore the CDC recommendations.

They have sanitizer stations everywhere on their ships.

The crew squirt the stuff onto your hands every time you come up the gangway.

They squirt it onto your hands everytime you enter the dining room.

From 2002 until today they have had 36 reported NLV outbreaks. The highest in the industry.

 

RCCL/Celebrity used to have hand sanitizers everywhere, but their numbers of outbreaks continued to increase. In 2006 they had 15 outbreaks; the highest in the industry for that year.

In 2007 they removed the sanitizers. They have had only 4 outbreaks since.

 

Yes, the hand sanitizers do work - IF THEY ARE USED PROPERLY.

But history and experience has proven that the cruising public DO NOT use them properly.

Too many people stop washing their hands when they have the option of using hand sanitizers instead.

 

We cannot legislate cleanliness. So long as we have so many people raised by wolves sailing on our ships. it is safer to take the sanitizers away.

[leonadeb]

Let's try this again and see if anyone is paying attention:

Do hand sanitizers really work? Yes and no.

 

Carnival Cruise Line had about the same number of NLV outbreaks as all the other mass market lines - until 2003.

Then they started removing hand sanitizers form their ships at the suggestion (not requirement) of the CDC.

From 2004 to today they have had a total of 6 NLV Outbreaks, the lowest in the industry.

 

Yes, the hand sanitizers do work - IF THEY ARE USED PROPERLY.

But history and experience has proven that the cruising public DO NOT use them properly.

Too many people stop washing their hands when they have the option of using hand sanitizers instead.

 

We cannot legislate cleanliness. So long as we have so many people raised by wolves sailing on our ships. it is safer to take the sanitizers away.

Very interesting Bruce. Until I got to the part about the hand sanitizers working I was ready to ask the CDC why they are advising using it to help ward off the swine flu...along with frequent hand washing. I'm a cashier and am constantly squirting this stuff on my hands since they put out that advisory...don't know where the money has been.

[yoyosma]

A lot of good the hand sanitizes does after touching an infected menu. :eek:

I wonder if they ever do wipe down the covers?:confused:

It may not kill norovirus, but it will help a lot if the person before you didn't wash their hands after using the bathroom. I have noticed many, many women leaving the rest room without doing so. It does surprise me since we know so much about it's importance.

[jlp20]

.............Yes, the hand sanitizers do work - IF THEY ARE USED PROPERLY.

....

 

As I posted before, this thread comes up about every six months.

 

I self educated myself several years ago on this subject. At that time I posted the pertinent web sites. I was able to locate the info and do the reading in less than 20 minutes. Start with the CDC and follow their lead. Go in knowing the term “GERM” means nothing. Bacteria and virus are totally different things. Lysol is famous for “killing germs” but ignoring to say they have no effect on viruses.

 

Anyway, hand sanitizers were meant to kill bacteria, NOT viruses. Purel and the like is much less than 50% alcohol. This WILL kill bacteria. Using 100% alcohol, it takes about 5 minutes of emersion to kill most virus organisms. Using a large glop of the hand sanitizer, it will evaporate within the first 60 seconds. If you were to put your hand in a pail of alcohol, damage to your skin would start long before any virus would be affected.

[Parrot Mom]

I wouldn't like the feel of being confined in my cabin for either. :D

 

I'M WITH YOU! I'd rather use hand sanitizers, wash my hands, etc... especially when I don't see care taken by the staff...rather than have to spend three days in my cabin.. I don't think I'm germaphobic thinking of the menus..never thought of that.. Since I've never been in a mens room I wonder if the men are as careful....

[mountainhouse]

These hand sanitizers do NOTHING. Sure, they kill bacteria, both good and bad. They work on some enveloped viruses, but not on un-enveloped viruses. In fact, products like Lysol and triclosan don't really work either. Lysol even publishes that on their website (in the recesses of the website). The only reason for the hand sanitizers is... psychological. Even the CDC says so.

 

 

Can you point out where the CDC says so? On the CDC's norovirius factsheet it says, "Use alcohol-based hand sanitizer along with handwashing." On the CDC's H1N1 page, it says, "Wash your hands often with soap and water, especially after you cough or sneeze. Alcohol-based hands cleaners are also effective." :confused:

[Just zis guy]

Hand sanitizers like Purell are alcohol based. These work very well on all bacteria, but viruses are a bit different. They'll inactivate influenza, but not that pesky norovirus.

 

A virus consists of a strand of DNA or RNA that can tell a host cell how to replicate the virus, and a capsid, or protein shell. Some viruses have an additional envelope around them made of lipids. Alcohol based cleaners attack lipids, and so the enveloped (lipophilic) viruses are susceptible to alcohol. These viruses include influenza, herpes simplex, HIV, vaccinia, and Hepatitis B and C.

 

Hepititis A, norovirus, and enteroviruses don't have a lipid envelope, and are not significantly impacted by alcohol based cleaners. A bleach solution applied for 5 minutes, or 0.5% hydrogen peroxide are effective on surfaces. For people, washing of hands with soap for at least 20 seconds and then rinsing well is effective.

 

Pedantically, viruses are not self-reproducing organisms, and do not meet the definition of 'life' from the biology texts, so they are not 'killed'. They are rendered inactive, in the manner that striking an alarm clock with a large mallet renders it inactive. :p

 

 

Summary: Please be so kind as to wash your hands, with soap, for at least 20 seconds before leaving the loo. Wash before hitting the buffet. Carry along your Purell or other favorite and use that as well, but remember it is not a substitute for washing your hands.

[bhopal21]

Can you point out where the CDC says so? On the CDC's norovirius factsheet it says, "Use alcohol-based hand sanitizer along with handwashing." On the CDC's H1N1 page, it says, "Wash your hands often with soap and water, especially after you cough or sneeze. Alcohol-based hands cleaners are also effective." :confused:

 

Nobody can point that out to you because it doesn't exist.

 

Mike:)

[NancyIL]

There were no hand sanitizers to be seen on our April 25 Grandeur of the Seas cruise, UNTIL they suddenly appeared midweek after news of the swine flu gained more attention.

[Ephraim]

Can you point out where the CDC says so? On the CDC's norovirius factsheet it says, "Use alcohol-based hand sanitizer along with handwashing." On the CDC's H1N1 page, it says, "Wash your hands often with soap and water, especially after you cough or sneeze. Alcohol-based hands cleaners are also effective." :confused:

 

The CDC has a number of articles on the effectiveness of these hand sanitizers. For example: http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol12no03/05-0955.htm

 

But there are straight out quotes too "If soap and/or clean, running water is not available, then use an alcohol-based gel (>60% alcohol) [url=http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/global/sanitation/hygiene_promotion.html#one][/url]to clean hands; however, alcohol-based hand sanitizers will not kill all germs (e.g., Cryptosporidium spp.)" see http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/global/sanitation/hygiene_promotion.html

 

Essentially, it's a backup and a psychological help, people react differently if they see it and recognize what they should be doing. Also, the amount used and the length of time used are very important. The first articles I read said that they hadn't tested swine flu yet and didn't know the effectiveness of alcohol on the virus. (Likely it's effective to a certain extent.) I'm not sure if they have tested it fully yet. (Frankly, there is a lot more important testing to do before they worry about alcohol and testing how long it takes to kill the virus in sufficient concentrations.) Basically... nothing beats washing your hands with plain old SOAP.

 

And I don't even want to go into the whole Triclosan debate, unless you think that it's acceptable that man has now made whales susceptible to breast cancer. All because people use "antibacterial" soaps that don't do anything more than just plain soap... but aren't filtered out of the water before it is dumped into the ocean to recycle it. Thousands of years man has managed with a natural product called soap, twenty years of Triclosan and we are giving whales breast cancer.

[gizfish]

As I posted before, this thread comes up about every six months.

 

 

 

Anyway, hand sanitizers were meant to kill bacteria, NOT viruses. Purel and the like is much less than 50% alcohol. This WILL kill bacteria. Using 100% alcohol, it takes about 5 minutes of emersion to kill most virus organisms. Using a large glop of the hand sanitizer, it will evaporate within the first 60 seconds. If you were to put your hand in a pail of alcohol, damage to your skin would start long before any virus would be affected.

 

Just to clarify, for a product to be called a hand sanitizer, it must contain 62% or more alcohol, and Purell (and other brands) do.

[Tatka]

At least sanitizers are available on Princess ships unlike RCCL now.

 

We usually wash hands and are using sanitizers, just to feel cleaner.

[cruiserus]

I was on the same Pacific Princess cruise as Parrot Mom. There was sanitizer to use as you entered the food area of the buffet. Unfortunately, many people marched right by it. I did see the crew wiping down rails, etc. on occasion, usually late evening or during the day when people are off the ship. I was surprised when I didn't see it as you entered the dining room, but the entry on this ship was a bit tight and I'm not sure where they would have put it. As for me, I just make sure I wash frequently with soap and water, but also use the sanitizer if available. Never gotten sick on a cruise yet...

 

BTW, I like that Princess now instructs you in the bathrooms to wash, dry hands with paper towels, and use the towel to open the door. They provided a small waste basket right next to the door for your paper towels.

[mountainhouse]

however, alcohol-based hand sanitizers will not kill all germs (e.g., Cryptosporidium spp.)" see http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/global/sanitation/hygiene_promotion.html

 

Essentially, it's a backup and a psychological help,

 

Certainly handwashing is best, but to call sanitizers "a psychological help", when the CDC refers to them as less than ideal alternatives, is a bit of a stretch. Simply put, when hand washing is not an option, use a sanitizer, since they are effective.

[Parrot Mom]

I was on the same Pacific Princess cruise as Parrot Mom. There was sanitizer to use as you entered the food area of the buffet. Unfortunately, many people marched right by it. I did see the crew wiping down rails, etc. on occasion, usually late evening or during the day when people are off the ship. I was surprised when I didn't see it as you entered the dining room, but the entry on this ship was a bit tight and I'm not sure where they would have put it. As for me, I just make sure I wash frequently with soap and water, but also use the sanitizer if available. Never gotten sick on a cruise yet...

 

BTW, I like that Princess now instructs you in the bathrooms to wash, dry hands with paper towels, and use the towel to open the door. They provided a small waste basket right next to the door for your paper towels.

 

Yes, I thought that was a great idea...until we discovered one of the ladies rooms near the theatre had a broken sink..lol CRUISERUS... yes, it was a great cruise (btw Justin, the young boy was quarantined for three days) and as I said the food was fabulous in the dining room and the ship just perfect size.. As for the buffet..the cleanliness of the tables and the hogging of the tables by readers all day long left much to be desired.. Tables were filthy and Parrot Pop mentioned it to the Maitre d-- who then sent for extra help to clear off dishes and glasses. BTW Parrot Pop in case you didn't know who he was..was in a wheel chair the last two days on the ship and getting off. You might want to read a devastating review on Cruisemates of our cruise..honest..brutually..lol

[Ephraim]

Certainly handwashing is best, but to call sanitizers "a psychological help", when the CDC refers to them as less than ideal alternatives, is a bit of a stretch. Simply put, when hand washing is not an option, use a sanitizer, since they are effective.

 

No... for norovirus they are NOT effective. These sanitizers are alcohol based and norovirus is unenveloped. The effect of their use when there is a norovirus outbreak is essentially psychological... it makes you more aware of your hands, what you touch. But the norovirus is still on your hands.

 

There is an experimental hand sanitizer that is effective against norovirus... but it requires a wait period of five minutes.

 

And even with these hand sanitizers there is an effect of time and amount used to make them effective. Do you read Consumer Reports.... this is what they said today at http://blogs.consumerreports.org/health/2009/05/disinfecting-viruses-in-your-home-preventing-swine-flu-h1n1-virus-washing-your-hands.html

 

Do... Wash your hands vigorously, for at least 20 seconds with soap and hot water after handling laundry, dishes, or any other potentially contaminated house wares.

...

Don't.... Buy "antibacterial" cleaners. Antibacterial agents, such as triclosan, don't kill viruses and may lead to resistant forms of bacteria.

[NancyIL]

At least sanitizers are available on Princess ships unlike RCCL now.

 

We usually wash hands and are using sanitizers, just to feel cleaner.

 

Royal Caribbean DOES have hand sanitizers, and they are now being used on their ships due to the swine flu. Before the middle of last week, I hadn't seen hand sanitizers on RCI ships in several years.

[bhopal21]

Certainly handwashing is best, but to call sanitizers "a psychological help", when the CDC refers to them as less than ideal alternatives, is a bit of a stretch. Simply put, when hand washing is not an option, use a sanitizer, since they are effective.

 

Still waiting on that quote from the CDC aren't you?:rolleyes:

 

And Consumer Reports says,

 

"Stick with simple soap and water and if you can't wash your hands, use an alcohol-based sanitizer with at least 60% alcohol content."

 

Mike;)

[Ephraim]

Still waiting on that quote from the CDC aren't you?:rolleyes:

 

And Consumer Reports says,

 

"Stick with simple soap and water and if you can't wash your hands, use an alcohol-based sanitizer with at least 60% alcohol content."

 

Mike;)

 

Correct, for swine flu... not norovirus.

 

Here's another article from the American Society for Microbiology on Norovirus at http://www.asm.org/Media/index.asp?bid=42835

 

The investigators tested one common liquid antibacterial soap and one popular brand of an alcohol-based hand sanitizer to see how effective they were at removing the virus from the fingers compared to rinsing with water only. They found that washing the fingers with plain water gave the greatest level of norovirus reduction, with an average of about 96% removal. Washing the fingers with an antibacterial liquid soap gave an average of about 88% removal. The alcohol-based sanitizer was not effective at removing the virus from the volunteers’ fingers and only resulted in an average removal of 46%.

 

There's just no point if people's hands are still 54% infected. That's not 54% of people... that's 54% of the each hand. That's not effective.

 

As for the CDC, read at http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dhqp/id_norovirusFS.html

 

Quaternary ammonium compounds are often used for sanitizing food preparation surfaces or disinfecting large surfaces (e.g., countertops and floors). However, because noroviruses are non-enveloped virus particles, most quaternary ammonium compounds (which act by disrupting viral envelopes) do not have significant activity against them.

 

Alcohol does the same thing.

 

But you can read http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5009a1.htm and see for yourself, there is no one reference to alcohol based sanitizers related to Norwalk.

[bhopal21]

These hand sanitizers do NOTHING. Sure, they kill bacteria, both good and bad. The only reason for the hand sanitizers is... psychological. Even the CDC says so.

 

We are still waiting for the CDC statement citing the above, forget Triclosan, Lysol etc.

 

We are all aware that hand washing is the best method to avoid contamination; but hand sanitizers have a place as well.

 

Mike:)