Pride Camp Carnival !!What are they thinking?

[alreadypacked]

I think you need to reread my post... I stated UNTIL DISCIPLINED>..

 

I fully understood your post. With all due respect, I merely disagree. Acceptable modes of behavior need to be instilled in kids from day one. All kids will misbehave from time to time, but for me, exposing oneself crosses a line and goes beyond "normal" misbehavior in a child. I'm new to these forums, but I suspect we're getting off track. My apologies.

[Travel Alot]

Seems to me....when there is an "incident" on a cruise ship...wouldn't there be an "incident report" made? Seems strange that the response from the counselors at Camp Carnival was almost non-existent and no follow up from the management. Especially when it could be argued that exposure occurred. Of course there is always my side of the story and your side of the story and then somewhere in the middle is the truth. While I would certainly be distressed if my child made a complaint to me regarding an alleged exposure, I also would concerned if my child was accused wrongly, too.

[alreadypacked]

Are there any security cameras in Camp Carnival?

[trock]

I think you need to reread my post... I stated UNTIL DISCIPLINED>..

 

I fully understood your post. With all due respect, I merely disagree. Acceptable modes of behavior need to be instilled in kids from day one. All kids will misbehave from time to time, but for me, exposing oneself crosses a line and goes beyond "normal" misbehavior in a child. I'm new to these forums, but I suspect we're getting off track. My apologies.

 

No apologies needed I am in complete agreement with you with the slight acception I think at young ages they dont realize the seriousness of their actions..:)

 

I know some will argue that at 10 they should know better but all kids develop differently- and i think this is more so of boys.. I knew of neighbor's kids who liked to run around naked no matter how their parents disciplined them... it was not gratuitous or deviant .. just 'kids'...

But you are right.. we are getting OT

[gatormama]

First: exposing yourself at 10 is never okay; bullying at any age is never okay but just to play devil's advocate maybe they child was autistic or had some special needs. Maybe camp carnival was trying to work with him. Still not acceptable behavior, and he should have been banned from camp carnival for the rest of the trip.

[Julienatul]

I am sorry this happened to your girls. My DD is only 4 but I would have been extremely upset about this as well. This is unacceptable behavior and really makes you wonder about the level supervision these kids are getting in camp. I know they are 10 and dont need as much supervision as the younger group but come on, the camp rooms are not that big and there are 2 counselors assigned to each age group, so it makes you wonder what the counselors are doing. If you send your kids to the camp, you expect it to be adequately supervised.

 

Its unfortunate the security team did not respond like they should have. Obviously this child was doing anything and everything to terrorize and if he was comfortable enough to do it on vacation, he has done it before. He definitely needs serious psychological help. His parents may not even know what he is doing. Since the counselors didnt see they may just have told his parents he was "being mean or scaring the girls". Carnival should not have tolerated this behavior. I work for the child protection team and I examine child victims of sexual assault for a living. You would be surprised how many parents have no idea what their children are doing until they walk in and catch them in the act.

 

Another poster had it right, if you do not get the apology and answer you are looking for, you could always give the story to the press.

 

I appreciate your warning us, I will be much more vigilant now with my DD.

I app

[DocF]

Since we seem to be getting into analysis of childhood behavior and what is or is not "normal", let me throw a couple things into the mix.

 

Behavior that is acceptable amongst a group of similar aged kids who are together all the time falls into a broader frame than that which is tolerated in a group of casual acquaintances or a group of strangers. For example, we might have had pick on Donny day when we were 10. And Donny would have known that it really did not mean a thing.

 

Now in many peer groups of pre-adolescents sexual games of the "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" variety are fairly common and not traumatic experiences.

 

Neither of these is an acceptable form of behavior in a group where all the participants are not well known to each other. Circumstances make a big difference. Fact is, most kids understand this and will behave in appropriate ways in a group like Camp Carnival or a Boy Scout camp or some other activity where they are thrown together with strangers.

 

Those that do not behave appropriately, need guidance and direction, preferably from their parents, if not then from professionals.

 

Now victims of this sort of inappropriate behavior, I am convinced, are harmed more by the parents reactions to it than by the act. If the kids are treated with comfort and support, they will have a better outcome than if the parents react in horror and outrage.

 

I believe the OP, both by his profession and his general demeanor, will do well by his twins. I also believe he needs to pursue this as someone on the ship seems to have dropped the ball.

 

Doc

[happybooker1]

The first time they complained of being bullied, I would instruct them to let me know if it happened again. And I would pass on the word to the Camp counselors. The next time they told me it happened again, I would ask them to point out the boy. I would quietly approach him and in my most 'teacherly' voice I would tell him he was not to bother my child(ren) again. Including speaking to, sitting by, or being at the same table as them.

 

My DS has had several confrontations w/bullies @ playgrounds or other public places. I don't ask 'are you bothering my son?' I just tell the offending child what 'my rules' are. And the rule is: you don't have any encounter with my child again. And I never raise my voice, threaten, or use inappropriate language. I think the bullies are more 'scared' by my calm demenor than anything!

[sharonny]

At the very least the staff should have made an attempt to find out what happened and involve both sets of parents. Example: We've had a situation arise that I did not see yada yada yada........unfortunately it must be addressed since this kind of behavior is unacceptable yada yada if we receive anymore complaints about your child, no more camp carnival. Something to that effect.

 

More than likely it would have ended with "he said, she said" since no adults witnessed but the situation would have been brought to light. The OP would have felt like action was being taken and the the boy might be less compelled to act up.

 

Since it appears that the counselors could have cared less and made you questions the safety of your children. I'd write the letters.

[cruisecop2006]

I made the mistake of assuming that the ships staff where going to follow thru on what they had said. which was the boy was banned from Camp Carnival. I was OK with that. However they never followed thru and pretty much told us thatthe boy was at the camp ,and it was our prerogitive if we didnt want to bring our children back. They were kinda nasty about it.

 

It was not good trust me if most of you kind cruisers where in my shoes you would have flipped out at the lack of action or even concern on the part of the ships staff and security.

 

Im being honest here and as much as i like cruising and i love it, I am really rethinking my opinion on cruiseship safety after this incident.

[sharonny]

I certainly would have flipped out. Your letter will hopefully get them to address the policies of Camp Carnival, Security and good old Customer Relations so that in the future these types of situations will be stopped in their tracks.

 

Now get to writing a really good letter.:)

[DocJohnB]

At the very least the staff should have made an attempt to find out what happened and involve both sets of parents.

 

sharonny,

 

Absolutely . . . . . . . this has to the absolute minimum of what parents should expect in this type of situation.

 

I was not there, so obviously I don't have a clue as to what really went on. But, one would have to at least give some credence to the story told by the girls AND corroborated by their friend. All concerned (kids and parents) should have been called in for a meeting and as "inappropriate behavior" was alluded to, the head of ships Security should have chaired the meeting. He/she then has to have the ability (and intestinal fortitude) to make a decision and to have that decision backed up by his/her superiors. Now cruisecop2006 may not have liked or even agreed with the decision, but at least Carnival would have been seen as having taken some action.

 

If, as presented, the facts were correct (and I so believe they are), the boy would have been banned from Camp Carnival and the parents given instruction that he would be in their "line of sight" for the remainder of the cruise and was to have no contact with the others involved. If they did not agree to that or failed to act accordingly, the whole family would be escorted off the ship at the next port.

 

If it were determined that the girls and their friend were "lying", those parents would get the same set of instructions.

 

IMO it is not only inexcusable for Carnival to take no action, it is legally and morally reprehensible.

[ducklovemama]

I am totally on your side and what he did was very wrong and should not be allowed back in camp carnival. I was on the pride the same week as you. I can't help to think that all the nude paintings and statue of david may have played a role in it some how.Unless children had a real understaning of nude art who knows what they took from it. But as I said the boy was wrong.

[twinklen01]

i find this disturbing. I have a 10(dd) and we will be on our first cruise in Nov. I'm cautious about leaving her in places like this but it never crossed my mind about another child doing this. But its a reminder that yes this does happen. I feel that the people incharge of watching the kids should be taking care of this by talking to the child parents and kids camp manager or chain of camands. This child should have been kicked out for 24 hours and any other problems kicked out for the rest of the cruise. No child should put up with bullying or this type of behavior. I also feel the camp sitters should be written up for not taking action.

[Slimpickins]

Sorry this happened to you, I hope you get the answers you are looking for.

 

When we are the Fascination, my DD7 was playing in the fresh water rinse near the lido deck pool. She was afraid to go in the pool. I thought I saw some kids throw some water at here from a cup in the hot tub. I moved closer to where she was to get a closer look. Well one of the kids did it again. I walked over to the hot tub where he and his buds were and said "I suggest you don't do that again". Slowly, calmly and politely. Needles to say they didn't bother her again. I did not wait to speak to his parents, I ended it right then and there. I know this incident fails in comparison to the OP's, but when it comes to my children I will do whatever it takes.

[Colorado Kat]

To the original poster - I believe you and your daughters. I am so sorry this happened. I also have twin daughters. When they were younger (5-6), I taught them to tell the offending party to stop it. I gave them permission to yell and scream if bullying continued. I made them practice screaming "Stop it" in a closed car. (This will also draw adult attention.)

 

Now that they are 17, they are only allowed in public areas on a cruise ship - absolutely no going into cabins, and nobody in ours.

 

We've seen way too many teens drunk and obnoxious - they have ways of obtaining alcohol.

 

I am truely sorry this happened to your girls. It sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders. Kids can be very resilient - I am sure your daughters will be ok, after some intense discussions. Good luck.

 

Kathy

[pe4all]

cruisecop - when you send your letter, make sure you send it certified/return receipt. That way you have a record it was received by someone at the other end. I have found Carnival is usually good at answering specific items/problems in letters.

I have been back to this thread numerous times a day, as I find this incident (the way it was handled) so disturbing. I have been teaching for 29 years, and "see" literally 200 kids a day in my gym - grades k-6, ages 5-12. Multiply this times 5 days a week, times 40 teaching weeks a year, times 29 years,and I guess I can honestly say the following from experience: in all my years of teaching in my school, we have never had a child expose themselves - especially a 10 year old. This is totally innappropriate behavior, in any culture, at that age. Yes, we have had 5/6 year olds (boys and girls) "discover" their private parts while sitting, and "play" a bit with themselves (in their pants) We gently tell them that this is not appropriate -most times they don't even realize they are doing it- and then quietly speak to the parents. We have had 1 or 2 older kids (11-12 year olds) "kiss" on the playground - again, they are spoken to, parents notified, and the behavior stops. (at least on school grounds:cool:) I am part of the school "Safety Committee", and every incident - no matter how small, must be looked into, mediated, recorded on paper, parents notified, etc. This is for the child's protection, not for the school's! I still find it horrifying that Carnival dropped the ball, and I hope you receive some kind of explanation. I also hope you recorded this incident on the comment card, as they are read after every cruise, and certain items are immediately looked into. This would be one of them!

[halos]

I

 

I remember being a little kid. 8 -10 yrs old.. and we bullied each other and smacked each other and were best friends 5 minutes later.. some boys would flash you.. but none of this made them deviants or criminals.. Isn't this what kids do? They test the boundaries?

 

I am only asking because someone said call the press and if I am reading it correctly I really dont think 'ruining' the life a ten year boy is warranted...

 

I know boys sometimes play rough with each other, but this incident doesn't sound like 'normal' boy play. Don't forget another poster on another thread who was on this same cruise thinks his children were bullied by this same little boy.

Boys exposing themselves in that situation are not acting normally. My younger brother always ran around naked when he was a little kid. We used to call him Jungle Boy or Mogli all the time....but not when he was 10 and there is a difference between a kid not liking clothes, and wearing minimal and having clothes on and intentionally whipping out 'parts' to upset another kid. In most cases when a kid acts like this, something much deeper is going on and this is very sad :(

I would have hoped that once the Mother of these little girls registered a complaint with the CCL Camp staff, that they would have kept a better eye on this child. It is a he said/she said situation, but once someone voices a concern, the staff should take it seriosuly enough to give added attention to the situation.

I feel CCL dropped the ball here.

[cathyoo]

I will admit I put more credence in the OPs story because he said the boy exposed himself to his daughterS. Well maybe not more credence because I can't see little girls lying about this but thought "good it was two girls so it won't be a he said, she said issue".

 

This was not an innocent "show me yours" or playing doctor type thing. First of all 10 is way too old for that kind of behavior. Second this boy had already shown his intent... he wanted to terrorize these girls. Although I do believe the single bully is generally trying to make friends and just doesn't know how. I think the story would have had a more satisfactory ending if the girls had screamed about it right than. I like the poster's suggestion about teaching children to yell "get away from me".

 

I think the suggestion that the art on the ship had anything to do with the exposure absolutely silly. I know how 10 year old boys think.. I had three and two grandsons. Laughing, pointing, make stupid remarks MAYBE... exposing yourself .... way beyond a reaction to ART

[bluehenfan]

Something similar to this happened to my DGrD only in a day care setting. She was 3 1/2and the bully / exhibitionist was 7. Daycare provider assured my family she had spoken to the boys parents and they assured her it would never happen again. My DD informed daycare provider she was never to leave my DGrD alone with this little boy. Less then a week later, my DD was informed that the little boy had once again exposed himself to DGD only this time he was caught exposed and trying to undress my sobbing GD! Daycare provider handled it like, kids will be kids. DD never took DgD back and reported provider. She had her license suspended. Carnival doesn't seem to know or care how serious this situation could be.

[Familyforce6]

I have a feeling that none of the carnival employees like any type of confrontation on the "fun" ship. Maybe they are told to try and not stir the pot. I saw boys climbing up on the OUTSIDE of the slide when the slide was closed off at the bottom, and jumping off from 10 feet up into the pool. It was raining on too. Workers everywhere and not one told them to stop.:confused:

[PaulMedik]

As a parent of three sons, I have had to deal with incidents involving claims of harassment by my sons as reported to me directly by their female play area companions. Our boys play Little League and while one is playing on the field the others are roaming and playing outside of the ball field. On several occasions I have observed girls repeatedly taunting and teasing my sons then running to tell me they were chased or in some way intimidated by my son. I apologize and assure them I will punish him if needed, but I have yet to need to actually punish my sons for their actions. I speak to them and remind them to be respectful and then observe discreetly. What I observe and what is reported to me has not been consistant. After several repeat false claims I then advise the young girls that I have been watching and that they should simply stay away from my sons because my sons were not guilty as charged.

 

My sons have never came to me and complained of mistreatment by a friend or play area companion, because I have taught them to deal with issues themselves. I doubt the day will ever come that I don't discreetly check up on my sons to make sure they are safe as well as behaving themselves. I have observed them agressively appearing to be mean only to discover they were simply resolving an issue on their own.

 

In regards to the OPs issue at Camp Carnival, I can not imagine how an incident could be handled in a satisfactory manner if the incident did not have an adult witness. At younger ages, such behavior may occur and can be explained by differences in perception or intent, but by the age of ten that behavior should not occur. If the incident was witnessed by an adult, then action to immediately remedy the situation should have occured. If it was unwitnessed, then careful, discreet and constant attention should be given to prevent recurrances. It would be haphazard on Carnival's part to take any action against the offending child or their parents if an adult did not witness the incident.

 

Suggesting that the Camp Carnival director should be fired for an incident that may have occured, but was unwitnessed is an odd suggestion. Suggesting that Carnival took no action without actually knowing all of the facts of what research or actions Carnival may have taken is not quite so odd, but is not within normal reason either. Carnival may well have contacted the offending child's parents and Carnival's conversations or directions to those parents are none of the OPs business. It is also possible the incident was witnessed and deemed to be an inaccurate report of the incident by the OPs child. How would Carnival tell the OP that they investigated and found the incident was a non event?

 

My sons are 14, 12, and 8. Their age range has provided me with recent experience watching that particular age range interact and grow in their relationships. I am quite relieved by the fact that I do not have daughters to worry about and can not imagine what I would be like with twin ten year old daughters who had any issues with anybody. I know what a father's love feels like for sons and how protective I feel of them, but if I were thinking of myself protecting daughters, I doubt I would be able to observe and think objectively about anything they came and told me. I have watched parents of daughers literally cringe as their daughter reports something negative to them, and I suspect I would be much more likely to react without a second thought if I were dealing with my own daughters.

 

cruisecop2006, I do not envy the position you are in, but I would ask that you consider that action may have been taken that you are not aware of and that it is also possible that no action was possible. You are a police officer so I am sure that you encounter requests to act on a daily basis that you can not act upon because you either have no proof or the incident was found to be misreported. I am also sure that you have been accused of not caring and of not doing your job, when you actually do care and were simply doing your job. Should you be fired for an incident you could not prove or that you did not act upon because you had no duty to act?

 

Twin ten year old girls. I feel for you. Your life is only going to get more stressful over the next few years I'm afraid. I just have to make sure my sons know to stay away from fathers of daughters and to actually come running to me in those cases if something does come up. I have years of experience judging when to reason and when to react. I hope I am able to convince my sons that sometimes they just have to abandon reason and run. :eek:

 

I wish you the best in your efforts to get this sorted out.

[halos]

Paul, the problem with your logic here is this: The OP complained about this boy and the counselors said they would keep an eye on him...the parents of the boy said he would 'behave better'. The exposure incident happened after the kid was reported. This leads me to believe that the camp counselors were NOT keeping a good enough eye on him.

Not one but THREE girls witnessed this exposure.

 

I have no doubt that your sons may have had the incidents you describe. Girls can be a nuisance. I should know...I had two and am one. ;) BUT claims such as the OP's should not be dismissed as hysterics by 'a parent of a girl'. A young boy could have just as easily been bullied by this young, troubled child as well...and possibly HAS, the only difference might be that a young boy might keep this to his self and not tell anyone....which likely is more damaging. I know you implied you would act differently had you had a daughter...I'm just saying that this is a bad assumption. I would HOPE you would react just as upset if one of your sons had been bullied in this fashion.

 

Bottom line is that once a questionable behavior is brought to the attention of the CCL camp staff, it should be their responsibility to keep a watchful eye on the child in question.

[PaulMedik]

Paul, the problem with your logic here is this: The OP complained about this boy and the counselors said they would keep an eye on him...the parents of the boy said he would 'behave better'. The exposure incident happened after the kid was reported. This leads me to believe that the camp counselors were NOT keeping a good enough eye on him.

Not one but THREE girls witnessed this exposure.

 

I have no doubt that your sons may have had the incidents you describe. Girls can be a nuisance. I should know...I had two and am one. ;) BUT claims such as the OP's should not be dismissed as hysterics by 'a parent of a girl'. A young boy could have just as easily been bullied by this young, troubled child as well...and possibly HAS, the only difference might be that a young boy might keep this to his self and not tell anyone....which likely is more damaging. I know you implied you would act differently had you had a daughter...I'm just saying that this is a bad assumption. I would HOPE you would react just as upset if one of your sons had been bullied in this fashion.

 

Bottom line is that once a questionable behavior is brought to the attention of the CCL camp staff, it should be their responsibility to keep a watchful eye on the child in question.

 

 

Halos,

 

I agree that questionable behavior should be monitored and reports should be taken seriously. If I implied other wise, I'll have to blame it on lack of sleep; I'm a night shift person you know. It's past my bed time now. ;)

 

My sons have experienced and dealt with bullies as I am sure just about everyone has at some time or another. Some of us have even been bullies at some point. If my sons come to me and tell me that they cannot deal with a situation, then I will offer them advice and take action as needed. I do honestly feel that I would be less objective if I had daughters though. :o

 

I did miss reading where three girls witnessed the exposure.

[45014]

I'm sorry that I may be repeating a previous post. I think that I would have insisted that the cruise line contact the parents and have a face to face meeting with your girls and you and the boy and his parents. Security should have handled it.