Live/Silver Cloud: Norway Coast/Fjords July 1-16 Reports

[DOCJOC]

Terry,

I am a new member . I am extremely impressed with your patience in answering the question " How do you get those pictures" . We have recently disembarked from the Cloud ( Reprising the transatlantic in reverse at the end of the month) and checked into this blog . I see you have been answering this question almost from the start of your posting .

I add my thanks for the posting overall .

[TLCOhio]

Terry, I am a new member . I am extremely impressed with your patience in answering the question " How do you get those pictures" . We have recently disembarked from the Cloud ( Reprising the transatlantic in reverse at the end of the month) and checked into this blog . I see you have been answering this question almost from the start of your posting. I add my thanks for the posting overall.

 

Welcome to these Cruise Critic boards. Appreciate your nice comments. It's been fun doing these live/blogs, getting comments and questions, etc. People answering such questions has helped me in the past. This includes for doing our first cruise Silversea or how to post pictures on this board in a larger size, etc. Assume you had a safe and trans Atlantic crossing on "our" Cloud.

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

Did a June 7-19, 2011, Solstice cruise from Barcelona that had stops in Villefranche, ports near Pisa and Rome, Naples, Kotor, Venice and Dubrovnik. Enjoyed great weather and a wonderful trip. Dozens of wonderful visuals with key highlights, tips, comments, etc., on these postings. We are now at 69,286 views for this live/blog re-cap on our first sailing with Celebrity and much on wonderful Barcelona. Check these postings and added info at:

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1426474

[Jason12]

Wow what a fantastic review/blog we have booked a seven night cruise to Norway for our 25th annerveriory August 2013 and after reading your review we can not wait, I am a wedding photographer and I must say your photos are very good, composition and exposure are spot on, think I will need to take my SLR on this trip.

 

Jason

[Adirondack1]

Very new to this...not sure how to post... would like to send a private email to anyone who has gone on the Baltic Cruise for more information. Our friends and my husband and I are looking at this trip for next summer.

[TLCOhio]

Very new to this...not sure how to post... would like to send a private email to anyone who has gone on the Baltic Cruise for more information. Our friends and my husband and I are looking at this trip for next summer.

 

Jason12: Wow what a fantastic review/blog we have booked a seven night cruise to Norway for our 25th annerveriory August 2013 and after reading your review we can not wait' date=' I am a wedding photographer and I must say your photos are very good, composition and exposure are spot on, think I will need to take my SLR on this trip. Jason [/quote']

 

Appreciate the kind and nice comments from Jason, especially the good ratings for my pictures from a professional photographer. Good luck on your August 2013 25th anniversary cruise in Norway. Let me know any added questions!!!

 

For Karen, I will send you shortly an e-mail. I'm happy to share more information and answer any additional questions. One of the reasons for posting on these boards, as we answer questions here, is that others can share, see the discussions, learn more, etc., etc. Some folks are "shy" and/or not sure on what they are seeking to know and ask. As they read some of the "back and forth" between others, they realize that all of us started out less knowledgeable and experience. The only way to learn is to research, ask questions, keep digging deeper and deeper, etc.

 

Feel free to post and ask more. The only "dumb question" is the one you don't ask.

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

Did a June 7-19, 2011, Solstice cruise from Barcelona that had stops in Villefranche, ports near Pisa and Rome, Naples, Kotor, Venice and Dubrovnik. Enjoyed great weather and a wonderful trip. Dozens of wonderful visuals with key highlights, tips, comments, etc., on these postings. We are now at 74,053 views for this live/blog re-cap on our first sailing with Celebrity and much on wonderful Barcelona. Check these postings and added info at:

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1426474

[Adirondack1]

Terry- I can not find my way a round cruise critic very well. Question for you. Trying to decide on a cruise for 2013. The fjords of Norway looks fabulous but of course we'd be missing out on St. Petersburg. Your thoughts? Not sure how I can communicate with you directly. any advice on that as well :) Karen

[dusababy]

Terry- I can not find my way a round cruise critic very well. Question for you. Trying to decide on a cruise for 2013. The fjords of Norway looks fabulous but of course we'd be missing out on St. Petersburg. Your thoughts? Not sure how I can communicate with you directly. any advice on that as well :) Karen

 

 

Karen I've been cruising with SS since 1996 and whenever anyone asks about my favorite itinerary #1 is NORWEGIAN FJORDS. It is a breathtaking cruise. St. Petersburg is special in its own way but for grandeur and eye-popping vistas -- it's the fjords for me.

[duct tape]

Ditto, Dusababy...FJORDS!

[Adirondack1]

Please tell me which ports and what side trips you enjoyed on the Fjord Silver Cloud cruise. Thanks! Karen

[Adirondack1]

Thanks so much- I'm sold. Finally found your photos and it looks fabulous!

[Adirondack1]

Thanks! I finally found the "thread". Any other information on this cruise-especially side trips would be great!

[Stumblefoot]

Terry, this thread is like Pavlov's dog experiment for me. I see it pop-up and try as I might to not click on it and read the new post, I just can't resist. Of course, then I have to go back and look through the pics and the salivating begins anew. Thanks for creating a thread that is truly "cruise candy" for the senses.

[duct tape]

terri, you have now become immortal.

 

 

 

 

 

thanx.

[Adirondack1]

Terry- I'm from South Bend Indiana a fellow Midwesterner. Is it proper cruise critic protocol for me to give you my email address so we could communicate that way? Karen

[TLCOhio]

Terry- I can not find my way a round cruise critic very well. Question for you. Trying to decide on a cruise for 2013. The fjords of Norway looks fabulous but of course we'd be missing out on St. Petersburg. Your thoughts? Not sure how I can communicate with you directly. any advice on that as well. Karen

 

Adirondack1: Thanks! I finally found the "thread". Any other information on this cruise-especially side trips would be great! Thanks so much- I'm sold. Finally found your photos and it looks fabulous!

 

Adirondack1: Fjords. Please tell me which ports and what side trips you enjoyed on the Fjord Silver Cloud cruise. Thanks! Karen

 

Stumblefoot: Terry' date=' this thread is like Pavlov's dog experiment for me. I see it pop-up and try as I might to not click on it and read the new post, [b']I just can't resist[/b]. Of course, then I have to go back and look through the pics and the salivating begins anew. Thanks for creating a thread that is truly "cruise candy" for the senses.

 

duct tape: terri' date=' you have now become immortal. thanx. [/quote']

 

WOW!! So thrilling to read ALL of these super nice comments. Glad that the so delightful duct tape spelled "immortal" correctly. Would hate to be confused with "immoral" or worse.

 

Appreciate Stumblefoot having those wonderfully interesting, unique comments on "thread is like Pavlov's dog experiment for me . . . the salivating begins anew". Glad to be "truly 'cruise candy' for the senses". That's a unique way of summarizing things. Will share with my wife and see if that impresses her. Doubt it. She knows me too well after 40 years of being married.

 

For Karen, glad that the fjords are winning. To be totally honest, I super loved St. Petersburg/Russia, plus other cities in the Baltics, including charming Copenhagen, Tallinn, etc., etc. Much of it is all above YOUR personal interests. I really like history, seeing it up close and personal, plus the world-class architecture, art, etc. On our 2008 Baltics cruise with Crystal, we had three days in St. Petersburg that allowed doing Moscow for one day, plus an excellent two days for private touring through Anastasia in seeing the Peterhof, Hermitage, Catherine's Palace, two unique Cathedrals, etc. On my personal scale of interests, we live on a 1.4 wooded acre ravine lot with a flowing creek and scenic hills that's in the middle of Columbus near the Ohio State University campus and the downtown. Wonderful setting each day that kind of spoils you on nature!! So nature and wildlife are important to me, but the Norway fjords and coast up to the North Cape were not quite my first, must-do choice. But our very good friends were very much into doing this type of adventure. Clearly, it worked out super, super well for us with our great weather, the nice people and excellent staff on the ship, spectacular scenery, etc., etc.

 

Norway Coast Favorites?: I cannot narrow it down to just and only one place as the top "best" for our July 2010 trip. It's a photo-finish with my favorites being for three different places. Here they are:

 

1a. Bird Island near North Cape: Our independent drive and then charter boat out to the bird island near the North Cape was so, so unique and special. The puffins, other birds, seeing the reindeer on the way, etc. It was a huge WOW!!!, what an experience!!!

 

1b. Lofoten Islands: We so loved these islands and fortunately Silversea gave us two different stops here. Doing a driving down to the end of these islands was so special and interesting.

 

1c. Bergen: We had incredible great weather in this historic city with such unique architecture and a scenic setting of water, mountains, great views, people, interesting activities, etc.

 

On my live/blog, I gave many more details and lots of pictures for why these three were so super, super wonderful. Plus, of course, more place were extra great, too!! The close runner-ups included when our Captain sailed up the small, narrow fjord in the Lofoten Islands, the Flam rail adventure, the history/architecture of Trondheim, views in and around Alesund, going up-country on our scenic way to Geiranger, etc., etc. Plus the many great experiences on the ship with the other passengers and staff, before the cruise doing Tivoli at night in Copenhagen, dropping by Windsor Castle between flights at Heathrow enroute, etc.

 

You get the idea, right? I can go on and on!! And did on the live/blog. Tell us, Karen, more about your personal interests, travel style, past Europe travels, other likes, etc. Happy to share more, answer added questions from you and others, etc. Below are just four visuals to summarize why those three stops (and other) were our top, best-of-the-best favorites.

 

Posting over 70,000 views!! Glad so many have dropped by, asked questions, made comments. Keep it coming!! Happy to share the fun we had and keep the wonderful .

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

This live/blog is doing well, too: Did a June 7-19, 2011, Solstice cruise from Barcelona that had stops in Villefranche, ports near Pisa and Rome, Naples, Kotor, Venice and Dubrovnik. Enjoyed great weather and a wonderful trip. Dozens of wonderful visuals with key highlights, tips, comments, etc., on these postings. We are now at 81,517 views for this live/blog re-cap on our first sailing with Celebrity and much on wonderful Barcelona. Check these postings and added info at:

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1426474

 

 

This is one of my many puffin visuals, showing their bright orange feet, plus their cute and unique beaks. We had a private boat from is the harbor in Gjesvaer near the North Cape.:

 

 

 

Here’s a close look at these historic Bergen Hanseatic merchant warehouse building fronts, people taking pictures, etc. Great and unique history AND architecture!:

 

 

 

From the portside control area, here is the view as our ship sailed up this narrow 300’ wide passage in the Trollfjord as a part of the Lofoton Islands. :

 

 

 

We went to the end of the road as our “adventure” in the dramatic Lofoten Islands with our rental car. We stopped in a village called “A”. In their alphabet, this “A” has a small “o” above the letter. This is a simple name for a charming fishing town with spectacular scenery. We brought along box lunches from the ship and dined on a picnic table on the wooden dock with water and sights all around us. This was our dining view with the busy and noisy birds providing entertainment!!:

 

[Stumblefoot]

Appreciate Stumblefoot having those wonderfully interesting, unique comments on "thread is like Pavlov's dog experiment for me . . . the salivating begins anew". Glad to be "truly 'cruise candy' for the senses". That's a unique way of summarizing things. Will share with my wife and see if that impresses her. Doubt it. She knows me too well after 40 years of being married.

Love you man. Can't wait for your next cruise, regardless of the ports of call. I know it will be like riding shotgun on a fantastic voyage. Keep up the great work!

[Adirondack1]

The cruise we've decided on is shorter than yours: a 7-day June 28, 2013 Copenhagen to Copenhagen with stops in Flam, Gudvangen, Kristiansund, Hellysylt, Geiranger, and Bergen. We're also going with friends who we saw Alaska with last summer on the Silver Shadow. We have been to England but no where else in Europe-want to go to many places...job, money, and a lake house in the Adirondacks where the best months are June, July, and August ( being a school teacher that if the only time I can travel) have kept us close to home. Last year's Alaskan cruise with Silversea was a huge splurge for us but we loved it so much we're going to start saving for another. The cities of St Petersburg, Helsinki, Stockholm etc. sound fascinating but we all agreed that the natural beauty of the fjords won out...plus did you see your fellow cruise critic buddies all said FJORDS?!

[TLCOhio]

Love you man. Can't wait for your next cruise, regardless of the ports of call. I know it will be like riding shotgun on a fantastic voyage. Keep up the great work!

 

Adirondack1: The cruise we've decided on is shorter than yours: a 7-day June 28' date=' 2013 Copenhagen to Copenhagen with stops in Flam, Gudvangen, Kristiansund, Hellysylt, Geiranger, and Bergen. We're also going with friends who we saw Alaska with last summer on the Silver Shadow. We have been to England but no where else in Europe-want to go to many places...job, money, and a lake house in the Adirondacks where the best months are June, July, and August ( being a school teacher that if the only time I can travel) have kept us close to home. Last year's Alaskan cruise with Silversea was a huge splurge for us but we loved it so much we're going to start saving for another. The cities of St Petersburg, Helsinki, Stockholm etc. sound fascinating but we all agreed that the natural beauty of the fjords won out...plus did you see your fellow cruise critic buddies all said FJORDS?! [/quote']

 

I love the super wise and creative comments from Stumblefoot. Right now our next cruise is for Jan. 20-Feb. 3, 2014, for Sydney to Auckland, NZ. My wife has another year to go before retiring from her school nurse job so that we can do this "adventure" down under in these fascinating and interesting areas during the early winter time period. For this summer we have a second grandson due in Charlottesville, Va. for around August 1, plus doing a major master bath remodeling, etc. Maybe another cruise will happen before NZ-Australia. Will see. BUT, we have to take care of the cash flow priorities, other family and my work needs, etc.

 

For Karen, I wish you could do more in going farther north than the stops you have planned on this seven-day cruise. BUT, there's only so much time and money. We didn't go to Gudvangen and Kristiansund, but we super loved Flam, Hellysylt, Geiranger and Bergen. Keep planning, let us know any other questions, etc. Happy to share more. Below are Geiranger and Flam sample visuals to keep you excitement level high, HIGH!!

 

Karen has lots of great future potentials and options to explore in Europe. We have done twenty two different countries there. So much to see and experience in the Baltics, Med, Greek Island, Turkey, etc.

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

Did a June 7-19, 2011, Solstice cruise from Barcelona that had stops in Villefranche, ports near Pisa and Rome, Naples, Kotor, Venice and Dubrovnik. Enjoyed great weather and a wonderful trip. Dozens of wonderful visuals with key highlights, tips, comments, etc., on these postings. We are now at 81,517 views for this live/blog re-cap on our first sailing with Celebrity and much on wonderful Barcelona. Check these postings and added info at:

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1426474

 

 

From our early July 2010 visit to the highly-rated Sognerfjord, here is one of the sights from Flam and riding the railroad there.::

 

 

 

From the Geiranger overlook vista, here is one example of the memories you can capture and take home. This is a closer look at a couple of people out on one of the lower look-out points with the Silver Cloud down on the water of the fjord.:

 

[Nonio]

Hi Terry

I so enjoyed your posts and photos of Dubrovnik that I decided to look to look at your Norwegian one as I am setting off for there tomorrow (doing a back to back cruise).

 

Your verve and obvious enjoyment are very contagious and the great photos really bring it all to life.

 

It is a very generous thing to do so 'thank you very much'. I now feel ready to set off ..with a light heart...

[TLCOhio]

Hi Terry, I so enjoyed your posts and photos of Dubrovnik that I decided to look to look at your Norwegian one as I am setting off for there tomorrow (doing a back to back cruise). Your verve and obvious enjoyment are very contagious and the great photos really bring it all to life. It is a very generous thing to do so 'thank you very much'. I now feel ready to set off ..with a light heart...

 

Appreciate your super kind comments. Enjoy your great B2B cruising on the Queen Victoria from Southampton. Lots of sea days, plus two days in in Copenhagen and St. Petersburg, plus Stockholm, Tallinn, Helsinki, Oslo and Kristiansand; back to Southampton, then La Coruna/Spain, Dubrovnik, Venice, Split, Corfu, Oporto/Portugal and then back to Southampton. WOW!! Don't you need me to travel along as your official photographer? Post here and let us know how things go, what you loved the most, etc. Have Portugal on my future, to-do list.

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

[Needhamite]

Well a full year had gone by so I guess I have to admit to myself that I am not going to get around to preparing the full-fledged review I planned for the Silver Whisper Norwegian Fjords cruise of June 2011. I do feel obliged, however, to report that my wife and I both feel that it was probably the most satisfying cruise we have taken to date. As magnificent as all of Terry-in-Ohio's pictures are from his trip in 2010, they really don't do the place full justice. We were amazed by the vistas, particularly on the Lofoten Islands. Due to a limited maritime strike, we made both of our Lofoten calls in Leknes. That meant that on our second call, we were over an hour away from Svolvaer, but that bus trip was the happy opportunity to see some of the most spectacular scenery we have ever encountered.

 

Our delight with the trip was certainly due in no small part to the spectacular weather. In sixteen days we had almost no rain and most of that was while we were at sea. Even Bergen was dry and sunny. The only unfortunate weather was at North Cape which was completely socked in with fog when we arrived at around 11:00 pm on June 25. There were dozens of buses which had converged on the parking lot but their hundreds of passengers did not get to look up to the Midnight Sun nor down on the Bering Sea from the cliff edge. A few hours later, however, the fog had lifted enough that we got to look up to the cliff top from the water level as sailed past Nordkapp as the beginning of our return journey. Also, we did have four nights above the Artic Circle so that gave us three other opportunities to experience the Midnight Sun and all three were clear and very photographable.

 

Of the various excursions we enjoyed on this voyage, the "Overland to Gudvangen" from Flåm and the "Thamshaven Railway/Løkken Mines" in Trondheim were particularly well worth the time and the money. We also had no problem navigating cities on our own. Bergen and Ålesund are two places where we got to see everything we wanted without having to be shepherded around in buses. Note: If the weather is clear enough to take the Fløibanen train up the mountain overlooking Bergen [highly recommended], buying your ticket at the Tourist Info Center near the Fish Market is the right thing to do. With tickets in hand we were able to walk right by the hundreds of tourists waiting in line to buy their tickets at the doors to the station. This easily saved us at least 30 minutes of slow shuffling in line.]

 

The cruise portion of our vacation was pretty much as expected from Silversea. That is to say, mostly "Excellent" with a couple of "Outstandings" and a couple of merely "Very Goods". Although this particular itinerary is fairly relaxed and, of course, Silversea accommodations are more than comfortable, we still were very happy that we arrived in the embarkation port (Copenhagen) several days in advance of the cruise. This ensured that we didn't have to worry about travel delays causing us to miss the ship and gave us time to fully adjust to the time change. Copenhagen is a gracious and intellectually stimulating city to visit. Like in all of Norway, we didn't encounter a single person who did not speak English.

 

If anyone has any specific questions, I would be happy to respond as best I can.

[TLCOhio]

Well a full year had gone by so I guess I have to admit to myself that I am not going to get around to preparing the full-fledged review I planned for the Silver Whisper Norwegian Fjords cruise of June 2011. I do feel obliged, however, to report that my wife and I both feel that it was probably the most satisfying cruise we have taken to date. As magnificent as all of Terry-in-Ohio's pictures are from his trip in 2010, they really don't do the place full justice. We were amazed by the vistas, particularly on the Lofoten Islands. Due to a limited maritime strike, we made both of our Lofoten calls in Leknes. That meant that on our second call, we were over an hour away from Svolvaer, but that bus trip was the happy opportunity to see some of the most spectacular scenery we have ever encountered. Our delight with the trip was certainly due in no small part to the spectacular weather. In sixteen days we had almost no rain and most of that was while we were at sea. Even Bergen was dry and sunny. The only unfortunate weather was at North Cape which was completely socked in with fog when we arrived at around 11:00 pm on June 25. There were dozens of buses which had converged on the parking lot but their hundreds of passengers did not get to look up to the Midnight Sun nor down on the Bering Sea from the cliff edge. A few hours later, however, the fog had lifted enough that we got to look up to the cliff top from the water level as sailed past Nordkapp as the beginning of our return journey. Also, we did have four nights above the Artic Circle so that gave us three other opportunities to experience the Midnight Sun and all three were clear and very photographable. Of the various excursions we enjoyed on this voyage, the "Overland to Gudvangen" from Flåm and the "Thamshaven Railway/Løkken Mines" in Trondheim were particularly well worth the time and the money. We also had no problem navigating cities on our own. Bergen and Ålesund are two places where we got to see everything we wanted without having to be shepherded around in buses. Note: If the weather is clear enough to take the Fløibanen train up the mountain overlooking Bergen [highly recommended], buying your ticket at the Tourist Info Center near the Fish Market is the right thing to do. With tickets in hand we were able to walk right by the hundreds of tourists waiting in line to buy their tickets at the doors to the station. This easily saved us at least 30 minutes of slow shuffling in line.] The cruise portion of our vacation was pretty much as expected from Silversea. That is to say, mostly "Excellent" with a couple of "Outstandings" and a couple of merely "Very Goods". Although this particular itinerary is fairly relaxed and, of course, Silversea accommodations are more than comfortable, we still were very happy that we arrived in the embarkation port (Copenhagen) several days in advance of the cruise. This ensured that we didn't have to worry about travel delays causing us to miss the ship and gave us time to fully adjust to the time change. Copenhagen is a gracious and intellectually stimulating city to visit. Like in all of Norway, we didn't encounter a single person who did not speak English. If anyone has any specific questions, I would be happy to respond as best I can.

 

Appreciate the excellent summary and sharing by our Boston area friend, Needhamite. Like you, we were very fortunate with enjoying generally great weather. YES, guilty as charged, pictures and words cannot do full justice to ALL of the beauty, charm and unique sights to do and experience in these areas. Don't be shy! Both of us are happy to answer any added questions. In general, as our Captain said, July is the best, most ideal month to visit these areas.

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

Did a June 7-19, 2011, Solstice cruise from Barcelona that had stops in Villefranche, ports near Pisa and Rome, Naples, Kotor, Venice and Dubrovnik. Enjoyed great weather and a wonderful trip. Dozens of wonderful visuals with key highlights, tips, comments, etc., on these postings. We are now at 89,789 views for this live/blog re-cap on our first sailing with Celebrity and much on wonderful Barcelona. Check these postings and added info at:

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1426474

[joysav]

Great trip report and photographs, and really looking forward to going up

around Scandinavia soon.

 

Unfortunately the better half has broken down after perfect health for 67 years.:o

 

Keyhole on his knee

Serious work on the left and next week on his right shoulder

and a hip replacement in a couple of months,

But he should be right for another 20 years after all of that. :D

 

I have spent a fair bit of time trying to pick the right ships for us and have

come to the conclusion of these in no particular order

 

For B2B and long trips

Marina and Riviera "Asian Restaurant and the Oceania Suites"

Silver Spirit " Asian Restaurant and the Silver Suites"

 

and for shorter trips

Silver Shadow, and Silver Whisper "Silver Suite"

 

Our perfect Ships would be around 3 Silver Spirit size ships with Oceania Suites.

 

The one thing I have noticed on Oceania ,Silver Seas and Seabourne is how

the MDR seems to be underused, and on the smaller ships a lot of the posters

seem to like to eat at the pool grills etc.

 

From down here in Oz the World has moved on and one Mediterranean Restaurant

should do on most ships . In my humble opinion of course :p

 

The other thing I find really strange is the people who design these Ships don't

put enough good suites down low and in the middle ( Center of Gravity )

Deck 7 on Silver Shadow/Whisper is close but even better if it was down on

Deck 6

 

Joy

[newlondon]

Terry, It's great to see your pictures again. DW and I loved this trip, as you may remember from way earlier in this thread we took it either 1-2 years earlier than you on the Wind. I also have many pics but have absolutely no idea how to post them on CC so others can enjoy them. Mine are all stored in Picassa- and just to lend enjoyment I'm a Canon fan.

Btw, in Bergen the rain came down sideways, but, at the North Cape, it was sunny and 70f and we enjoyed the midnight sun.

 

Adirondack1, I don't know what your time frame is, but when we took this trip we flew directly to St. Pete and after 3 days returned to Copenhagen for the cruise. With the exception of being pick-pocketed in Russia it was exactly right

[jpalbny]

Newlondon:

 

Post #32 in this thread has explicit instructions on how to do this using picasa albums. Enjoy!

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1622136