HAL is thinking big for its next-generation ships

[YXU AC*SE]

Talk amongst yourselves :D

 

Scott.

 

source: http://www.cruise-community.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3312&catid=910&Itemid=69

 

HAL is thinking big for its next-generation ships

 

Wednesday, 07 July 2010 06:43

 

Holland America Line is focussing on vessels of around 110,000gt with capacity of 3,000 passengers for its next generation of cruise ships, company executives confirmed.

 

Interviewed aboard the newly christened Nieuw Amsterdam on a maiden three-day cruise in the Adriatic, HAL chief executive Stein Kruse reiterated that fresh orders were still some distance away.

 

At the same time, the company is examining its options in light of the expected completion of the Panama Canal expansion project in 2015. ‘Our size restrictions are driven by the Panama Canal,’ he said.

 

‘We want to be able to move our ships in an inter-dependent way. If we have a ship in Europe and we want her to be in Alaska, we want her to be able to go through the canal.’ After the canal’s enlargement, ‘a 32.8mtr beam will no longer be an issue. The question then is how big do you go?’

 

Pieter Rijkaart, the company’s newbuild director, noted that, due to the impact of the economic crisis, ‘this is the first time we have completed a ship without having a follow-up order.’

 

But he added that ‘when the new Panama Canal opens up there will be opportunities,’ and that 2011 might therefore be the right time to embark on new, and larger prototype. He said HAL is considering a 110,000gt vessel with capacity for 3,000-plus passengers and 1,500-1,600 cabins.

 

Kruse said a number of considerations would play into an eventual decision, perhaps the most critical of which: ‘Is it true to the brand?’

 

He said the appeal of HAL’s mid-sized ships rests on personal service, ample premium space per passenger, and the intimacy of the cruise experience, as well as a huge palette of port calls, including many smaller, more remote destinations.

 

At 86,273gt and with capacity for 2,106 passengers, Nieuw Amsterdam and its sister Eurodam are now the largest vessels in HAL’s fleet. As Kruse noted, however, ‘this ship cannot get to Montréal because of issues with the turning basin and height restrictions.’

 

Building too big, he said, would threaten the basis of HAL’s brand appeal so any judgment must be finely calibrated. ‘The ultimate danger to the cruise business in general is if it becomes commoditised. I don’t want to see our industry go that way. But so far Carnival has been brilliant at well-communicated brand differentiation.’

[Sailkeywest]

Ack!!! I chose HAL for their itinerary (including both Tracy Arm and Glacier Bay, being on the Inside Passage), for the size of their cabins (SC suite to die for), and BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE A GAZILLION PEOPLE ON THEIR SHIPS.

 

One thing that I abhor about other cruiselines is the number of people that they cram into tight spaces, and then to boot, they take away free deck space to put in rock-climbing and pay-for-play activities.

 

For instance: I don't like the idea of a cruiseline putting in basically what is a space for the renting of deck chairs? Why do I have to rent a deck chair, that should be free. And when I looked at what other ammenities are offered at this space (like them deliverring food to you), you still have to pay an extra upcharge for that. Ridiculous, imo.

 

Another for instance: I loved the Golden Princess itinerary for the first cruise of the season leaving out of Vancouver. However, when I thought about getting off the boat with 2600 other passengers, it made me ill. (Zuider has 1900, to me, 700 is a big difference). Also, a number of balcony cabins' bathrooms are quite tight spaces on other cruiselines. The more that I stared at the photos, the more I was like "How the heck am I going to shower in there?"

 

Lastly: cost. I think HAL has fabulous value for the money. From the real OJ and REAL COFFEE to the white linen table service at dinner in the buffet. Other cruiselines suites are quite a bit more costly, for what I percieve as getting less bang for your buck. Also, on the Golden (which is beautiful) only suite guests can order off the restaurant room service menu, which was the kicker for me.

 

Princess, I think you are beautiful and have fabulous personal phone customer service, but I weighed the pros and cons and this is what I came up with.

 

I think you have to decide what aspects of a cruise that are of value to you and make a decision from there. Yes, there other ships out there with glitz and glam, but to me, it is all smoke and mirrors. I want teak decks and real loungers and space/comfort/pampering. I also want my cruise to have a fabulous itinerary rather than taking the shortest and roughest routes possible just to corral people from one port to another.

 

Ok, rant done. Just my 2 cents :P

[Sailkeywest]

P.S. To me, cruising is cruising, to experience the sea and your surroundings, visiting new places and meeting new people. Not a glorified amusement park at sea.

 

If you want to learn rock climbing, take a rock climbing class. If you want to go on an amusement park ride, buy a ticket to Disney. If you want a massively over-the-top huge production of a show, go to Vegas. I personally don't need to bungee jump over the heads of all the other cruisers to enjoy being at sea. OK, really done now :P

 

 

 

P.P.S. In case HAL is listening, my demographic is mid-30's, married, no children. Hubby is a software engineer and I am a nurse.

[AZNative2000]

P.S. To me, cruising is cruising, to experience the sea and your surroundings, visiting new places and meeting new people. Not a glorified amusement park at sea.

 

Very well said! I hope the powers that be at HAL will also consider the "niche" market they currently please with the "smaller" ships and the ambiance aboard them. While the old ships won't suddenly (I hope) disappear, I would hate to see them replaced. I guess it depends on their ideas of what is being "true to the brand".

[Randyk47]

We already don't like...well, don't prefer might be better....the larger Vista class over the R and S class and now an even bigger version. Guess we might get used to it but certainly wouldn't get my vote as a first choice.

[kelleherdl]

I thought Stein Kruse was saying the 'right' things. It was clear that the HAL brand is important in itself and the flexibility of itineraries is important to the brand. That means to me at least (unless a lot of geography changes very fast) that the fleet will continue to have smaller ships. We need to admit that for some areas of operation, like the bread and butter Caribbean, larger ships do make sense. But I doubt there are many 3,000 passenger ships that will sell out longer cruise lengths to more intesting but less travelled ports of call. Pollyanna.... maybe, but looking downstream Carnival will not give up the market niches where it is a major dominating player.

 

Dennis

[lettienets]

If you go over to the Carnival website and look up their ships, the ones listed under "Conquest Class" will give you an idea of the size K Stein is talking about, the 110,000 ton and 3000 passengers

[TracieABD]

I sure hope that if this comes to pass, they will leave their smaller ships in the water and will offer interesting itineraries for them.:)

[3rdGenCunarder]

Ack!!! I chose HAL for their itinerary (including both Tracy Arm and Glacier Bay, being on the Inside Passage), for the size of their cabins (SC suite to die for), and BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE A GAZILLION PEOPLE ON THEIR SHIPS.

 

One thing that I abhor about other cruiselines is the number of people that they cram into tight spaces, and then to boot, they take away free deck space to put in rock-climbing and pay-for-play activities.

 

For instance: I don't like the idea of a cruiseline putting in basically what is a space for the renting of deck chairs? Why do I have to rent a deck chair, that should be free. And when I looked at what other ammenities are offered at this space (like them deliverring food to you), you still have to pay an extra upcharge for that. Ridiculous, imo.

 

Another for instance: I loved the Golden Princess itinerary for the first cruise of the season leaving out of Vancouver. However, when I thought about getting off the boat with 2600 other passengers, it made me ill. (Zuider has 1900, to me, 700 is a big difference). Also, a number of balcony cabins' bathrooms are quite tight spaces on other cruiselines. The more that I stared at the photos, the more I was like "How the heck am I going to shower in there?"

 

Lastly: cost. I think HAL has fabulous value for the money. From the real OJ and REAL COFFEE to the white linen table service at dinner in the buffet. Other cruiselines suites are quite a bit more costly, for what I percieve as getting less bang for your buck. Also, on the Golden (which is beautiful) only suite guests can order off the restaurant room service menu, which was the kicker for me.

 

Princess, I think you are beautiful and have fabulous personal phone customer service, but I weighed the pros and cons and this is what I came up with.

 

I think you have to decide what aspects of a cruise that are of value to you and make a decision from there. Yes, there other ships out there with glitz and glam, but to me, it is all smoke and mirrors. I want teak decks and real loungers and space/comfort/pampering. I also want my cruise to have a fabulous itinerary rather than taking the shortest and roughest routes possible just to corral people from one port to another.

 

Ok, rant done. Just my 2 cents :P

 

Make it 4 cents, because I second everything you said! (Including the PS)

 

Carnival would be foolish to change HAL's branding/style. They've already got Princess and that batch of 3000+ ships. Carnival has always been smart to keep each line with its own identity. I hope they stay smart.

 

The only 3000 pax ships I've been on were QM2, which I like but it's too big. And Crown Princess, which suffered from the squeezing effecct. On CP we met a couple who were long-time Princess Pax from Australia, where they had sailed on the smaller Princess ships. They felt CP was too big. The man said that they've seen Princess take a basic ship (whatever the CP is) and keep finding ways to squeeze in more cabins without adding to the public space. They were not happy with the way Princess was changing. I suspect many on this board would feel the same way about HAL if they got caught up in the big ship trend.

[Diane Rose]

Make it 4 cents, because I second everything you said! (Including the PS)

 

Carnival would be foolish to change HAL's branding/style. They've already got Princess and that batch of 3000+ ships. Carnival has always been smart to keep each line with its own identity. I hope they stay smart.

 

 

Definitely agree. Love the smaller HAL ships, the lower number of passengers and the way we never feel crowded.

 

Diane

[Druke I]

The mnemonic CP has been given to the Sea Princess by Princess Lines. I believe the Crown Princess is KP under their system.

 

Sea Princess is considerably smaller than Crown Princess.

[sabled62]

P.S. To me, cruising is cruising, to experience the sea and your surroundings, visiting new places and meeting new people. Not a glorified amusement park at sea.

 

Sailkeywest, I couldn't have said it better. We left RCCL for that exact reason - ships too big, too much glitz, too many extras to pay for, and way too many people. We don't enjoy cruising on a ship with more than half the population of our whole town. If I wanted the amusement park experience, I would go to an amusement park.!!!

[navybankerteacher]

Carnival Corp. will be making a huge mistake if they give up the niche HAL currently serves. Let NCL RCI serve the yahoos who need amusement parks and shopping malls at sea; and let their own brands: Carnival and Princess continue to serve the not-quite-as-brain-dead "bigger-is-better" crowd. Please do not give up the wonderfully sized S and R ships -- and think about not even continuing the over-sized Vista class.

 

BIGGER is not better.

[GOLDENBONNY]

I would love to see it.We really love Hal,but ships could be bigger for our taste:D Good luck HAL

[GOLDENBONNY]

P.S. To me, cruising is cruising, to experience the sea and your surroundings, visiting new places and meeting new people. Not a glorified amusement park at sea.

 

If you want to learn rock climbing, take a rock climbing class. If you want to go on an amusement park ride, buy a ticket to Disney. If you want a massively over-the-top huge production of a show, go to Vegas. I personally don't need to bungee jump over the heads of all the other cruisers to enjoy being at sea. OK, really done now :P

 

 

 

P.P.S. In case HAL is listening, my demographic is mid-30's, married, no children. Hubby is a software engineer and I am a nurse.

 

I agree with you only for 50% .HAL probably the only line were you can fill cruising old fashion way and we love it,but 110 tonn ships its not too big so for sure people will love it,and they still have small ships for those who dose not:p

[ironin]

BIGGER is not better.

 

... but...

 

BIGGER is cheaper to build (per passenger), to staff, operate, and maintain

 

...and...

 

BIGGER is far more profitable (per passenger).

 

Thus...

 

BIGGER it will be be.

 

:(

[Jemima]

We prefer the R and S size. R class is our favorite. The vista and signature ships are ok, but are bigger than we prefer. Anything over that is definitely too big.

[PROCRUISE]

Carnival Corp. will be making a huge mistake if they give up the niche HAL currently serves. Let NCL RCI serve the yahoos who need amusement parks and shopping malls at sea; and let their own brands: Carnival and Princess continue to serve the not-quite-as-brain-dead "bigger-is-better" crowd. Please do not give up the wonderfully sized S and R ships -- and think about not even continuing the over-sized Vista class.

 

BIGGER is not better.

 

 

Carnival is very skilled at what they do with the multiple cruise lines they own. They understand the niche that HAL fills for many passengers and the unique itineraries that HAL offers. Perhaps that is why we enjoy both HAL and CCL.

[VioletHorse]

We've only been cruising since 2004, and all 8 cruises have been on HAL, on every class of ship from S,R, Vista and Signature. We love HAL.

 

However in June 2010 my DD and I did the 9 Caribbean itinerary on the Caribbean Princess out of NYC (something that HAL no longer offers). The 3100 pax ship was much larger than my favorite ship, the Eurodam. I was expecting mayhem, chaos, and constant overcrowding, and found none.

 

Embarkation at the Brooklyn Cruise Terminal was one the smoothest and most efficient that we've experienced. No crowding, and virtually no lines.

 

Stateroom sizes are smaller than on HAL, but Princess make their public areas much larger, and there are many more venues available for public access. Those public spaces are beautiful.

 

Let's talk about the Sactuary, the "rent a lounger" area. Prior to the cruise, my DD and I decided that this was something that we wanted to do based on our research here on CC. There are no plastic and nylon loungers here, only the most luxurious sun beds that you've every been on, with 6" mattresses that are more comfortable than the stateroom beds (but that's fodder for another thread). The pampering and service that we received was fabulous - 6 attendants:50 pax. There is a nominal delivery charge ($3 PP) for ordering free food from the special healthy spa menu, but this is food that is not available anywhere else on the ship, and it's delicious. You also have the option of going elsewhere to bring food back to the Sanctuary yourself if that's what you want to do. We did order the food a couple of times and felt that it was well worth the delivery charge. There is access to the adult only, outdoor spa pool - it's only a few steps down from the Sanctuary. Frankly the Sanctuary was the best thing that we have ever paid for with respect to onboard purchases, on any cruise ship, ever.

 

The other pools were very crowded on sea days, and chair hogging was rampant. That being said, it was no different than when my DH and I were on the Eurodam last October when we unable to get loungers near the aft pool, and finally, after much searching, found 2 on the deck overlooking the pool.

 

OK, the brown liquid that is purported to be coffee on Princess is vile and undrinkable. No argument there.

 

Disembarking and embarking at the ports was much less congested than anything that we've experienced on HAL, mainly due to the fact that Princess always had 2 gangways available and procedures are in place for directing people through the ship when large numbers of passengers are disembarking at the same time. The lines always move, and no one is cutting the line from other stairwells or corridors. If you attempt to cut the line, either a crew member or a passenger in line will give you a gentle reminder as to where to find the end of the line.

 

Princess knows how to handle a crowd. They certainly know that they can't put a 3000+ pax ship in the water and use the same procedures for passenger handling and comfort as they do a 1500 pax ship.

 

We'll certainly sail Princess again (we did purchase FCDs), although we've got FCDs with HAL and definitely will be sailing with them as well.

[jhannah]

The key question was noted: "Is it true to the brand?" Methinks that is a resounding "NO!"

 

That being said, if the financial numbers look better, then we'll see a bigger class of ship. I also hope they keep the smaller ones going. However, I'm not feeling there is a long future for the S class ships.

[world~citizen]

The key question was noted: "Is it true to the brand?" Methinks that is a resounding "NO!"

 

That being said, if the financial numbers look better, then we'll see a bigger class of ship. I also hope they keep the smaller ones going. However, I'm not feeling there is a long future for the S class ships.

 

 

S class sold us on HAL. R class was fine.

 

The farther away we get from S class, the farther away we get from the magic - for us.

 

When we first sailed the present Maasdam in its inaugural, we met a lot of Mariners who complained that "this Maasdam" was no where near as nice as the previous one they first sailed on. In general, they lamented HAL was going downhill. In contrast, we thoroughly enjoyed the ship, the crew, and the experience.

 

Copper noted on another thread that the times they are a changing. It was ever thus.

 

If this new philosophy resonates and brings as much joy to modern cruisers as the HAL of old brought to us, then good on them.

 

I am going to try to not be an old fart about it, but it will be difficult. :eek:

 

Smooth sailing to you...

[casamariposa]

I love sailing on the Statendam-class HAL ships. They are throwbacks to the ships of old, with enough of the modern day amenities, as far as I'm concerned. The personal space on all HAL's ships is much appreciated. I've been on Carnival and Princess and never had the feeling of being at sea as I am on my beloved HAL ships. In fact, sometimes it's hard to get a view of the ocean...or sniff the sea air...on those other lines' ships unless you have a balcony. If I want Las Vegas, I'll go to Las Vegas. I'm now in a position to take longer cruises. I would never want to be in one of Princess Line's interior cabins on a long cruise. If HAL does, for economic reasons, build larger ships, I hope they will keep the 1200 PAX ships for more exotic itineraries. But with the introduction of lanai cabins, I have the feeling they are going to squeeze every bit of cash out of their devoted passengers. The lanai cabins are another story....

[Cruzaholic41]

BIGGER is not better.

 

How do you know? According to your signature, you have not tried one.

 

Celebrity lovers thought the same thing until they actually tried Solstice Class. Solstice has proven to be a huge hit.

[woodofpine]

As everyone has said, that's the endgame. "Brand" is a rubbish term applied to a rubbish concept; see Andy Warhol's 'Campbell Soup Can' (what size?)

 

If cruisings' pax numbers support it, then bigger ships it be... with smaller ship fares being premium priced for those that really want it (see Prinsendam, and Princesses' Tahitian, Ocean, etc. fares presently to be joined by HAL's S class) It's all about the dinero!

[Australian family]

If they are going to buiild a new ship, why can't they make the atriums bigger and have glass fronted elevators, or elevators on the side of the ship?