Jones Act Violation?

[defaultet]

I have a very simple question, but have not seen the answer anywhere online. The Passenger Services Act (Jones Act) prevents one from traveling between two different U.S. ports unless there is a stop in a DISTANT foreign port. If one travels round-trip from the same U.S. port it's okay as long as the ship stops in any foreign port.

 

Fair enough. But what happens if it's on 2 different cruise lines? Would it be okay to take a 1-day cruise from Seattle to Vancouver on one cruise line and then take a 1-day cruise back to Seattle on a different cruise line? Actually, in that case maybe would be okay since it would effectively make the trip round-trip Seattle and the cruise stopped in Vancouver.

 

But let's say you take a 1-day cruise from Seattle to Vancouver on Holland America. Then the next day you take a 3-day cruise from Vancouver to San Diego on Princess. Is that a Jones Act violation if it's on two different cruise lines? Would the cruise lines be responsible, or would the individual be responsible for violating the law? Would such an itinerary raise any flags with Customs/Immigration or other government officials? Or would it even be noticed?

 

I'm just curious. Living in Seattle I know people who have done various oddball itineraries like this on 2 different lines. If they did the itinerary on the same line it would be a Jones Act violation, but it seems like if it's on 2 different lines one is unlikely to get in trouble.

[spongerob]

People book different cruise lines or different ships with the same cruise line frequently. There is no violation as long as it's a different ship.

[paul929207]

It is my understanding that since you would be changing cruise lines, it would be okay

[defaultet]

@spongerob,

 

So if it's the same line but 2 different ships that would be okay? Interesting was not aware of that. But that would make sense I guess.

 

Is there any wording in the actual Act that specifies that two different lines and/or two different ships is okay? I've been trying to see if I can find the text of the Act online but haven't really been seeing anything.

 

Thanks.

[Travelcat2]

I have a very simple question, but have not seen the answer anywhere online. The Passenger Services Act (Jones Act) prevents one from traveling between two different U.S. ports unless there is a stop in a DISTANT foreign port. If one travels round-trip from the same U.S. port it's okay as long as the ship stops in any foreign port.

 

Fair enough. But what happens if it's on 2 different cruise lines? Would it be okay to take a 1-day cruise from Seattle to Vancouver on one cruise line and then take a 1-day cruise back to Seattle on a different cruise line? Actually, in that case maybe would be okay since it would effectively make the trip round-trip Seattle and the cruise stopped in Vancouver.

 

But let's say you take a 1-day cruise from Seattle to Vancouver on Holland America. Then the next day you take a 3-day cruise from Vancouver to San Diego on Princess. Is that a Jones Act violation if it's on two different cruise lines? Would the cruise lines be responsible, or would the individual be responsible for violating the law? Would such an itinerary raise any flags with Customs/Immigration or other government officials? Or would it even be noticed?

 

I'm just curious. Living in Seattle I know people who have done various oddball itineraries like this on 2 different lines. If they did the itinerary on the same line it would be a Jones Act violation, but it seems like if it's on 2 different lines one is unlikely to get in trouble.

 

Interesting, but strange question. What cruise line does a 1 day cruise from Seattle to Vancouver? Also, if you are going from Seattle to Vancouver, you are going out of the country to a foreign port (not sure where you have read the term "distant" foreign port). No matter how you look at it, Vancouver is a foreign port -- one which requires a passport to enter. Suggest you contact either the cruise line or a TA. . . . . what you are asking, IMHO, is beyond the scope of the average traveler.

[Travelcat2]

I have a very simple question, but have not seen the answer anywhere online. The Passenger Services Act (Jones Act) prevents one from traveling between two different U.S. ports unless there is a stop in a DISTANT foreign port. If one travels round-trip from the same U.S. port it's okay as long as the ship stops in any foreign port.

 

Fair enough. But what happens if it's on 2 different cruise lines? Would it be okay to take a 1-day cruise from Seattle to Vancouver on one cruise line and then take a 1-day cruise back to Seattle on a different cruise line? Actually, in that case maybe would be okay since it would effectively make the trip round-trip Seattle and the cruise stopped in Vancouver.

 

But let's say you take a 1-day cruise from Seattle to Vancouver on Holland America. Then the next day you take a 3-day cruise from Vancouver to San Diego on Princess. Is that a Jones Act violation if it's on two different cruise lines? Would the cruise lines be responsible, or would the individual be responsible for violating the law? Would such an itinerary raise any flags with Customs/Immigration or other government officials? Or would it even be noticed?

 

I'm just curious. Living in Seattle I know people who have done various oddball itineraries like this on 2 different lines. If they did the itinerary on the same line it would be a Jones Act violation, but it seems like if it's on 2 different lines one is unlikely to get in trouble.

 

This may be the oddest question I have seen in 5 years! What cruise line does a 1 day/night cruise from Seattle to Vancouver (you can drive or take a bus from Seattle to Vancouver)? IF such a line exists, the passengers are definitely going to a foreign port -- one that requires a passport to enter. IMHO, if there were an issue of violating some obscure act, I would simply take a cruise from Vancouver to Seattle (again, if such a thing exists). Very strange indeed. If this is a serious post, I suggest contacting your TA or cruise line and asking this question.

[defaultet]

@Travelcat2,

 

There are a number of cruise lines that will do 1-4 day sailings. These are marketed as "coastal" cruises, but are more properly considered repositioning cruises. Holland America and Princess do them, among others. It's a way to move the cruise ship from A to B and still make some money. So, when Alaska season ends a lot of cruise ships will move down to San Diego or L.A. to begin Mexico cruises. As opposed to the ship being empty for a few days the lines create and market these "coastal" cruises.

 

Anyway, if one was on Holland America and did a 1-day from Seattle to Vancouver, then did a 3-day cruise to San Diego (still on Holland America) that would be a Jones Act violation. Because unless the sailing is round-trip from the same U.S. port (ex. round-trip Seattle Alaska cruise) the law says that the ship would have to dock in a distanct foreign port. So, Mexico or Canadian ports do not count as distant, distant would be South America for example.

 

I wasn't clear on what happens if the sailings are on two different lines and/or ships, but according to what some people are posting it should be okay.

[ASeaPrincess1]

So, to be clear, THIS is a violation, right?

 

Seattle/Alaska 7-day R/T............then

Seattle/Vancouver 1-day........then

Vancouver-LA 5-day

 

Same ship....13 days total. 3 separate cruises.

[wrp96]

So, to be clear, THIS is a violation, right?

 

Seattle/Alaska 7-day R/T............then

Seattle/Vancouver 1-day........then

Vancouver-LA 5-day

 

Same ship....13 days total. 3 separate cruises.

 

 

Correct it is a violation because it is a cruise from Seattle to LA (doesn't matter how the cruiseline sells it) without a stop in a distant foreign port.

[njhorseman]

Interesting, but strange question. What cruise line does a 1 day cruise from Seattle to Vancouver? Also, if you are going from Seattle to Vancouver, you are going out of the country to a foreign port (not sure where you have read the term "distant" foreign port). No matter how you look at it, Vancouver is a foreign port -- one which requires a passport to enter. Suggest you contact either the cruise line or a TA. . . . . what you are asking, IMHO, is beyond the scope of the average traveler.

 

You're wrong. Closed loop cruises require a call at a foreign port. Open jaw cruise requires a stop at a distant foreign port. Vancouver, while a foreign port, does not qualify a distant foreign port. "Distant foreign port " is defined in the law.

 

There are any number of posters on Cruise Critic who understand the scope of the question and can answer it.

[Essiesmom]

You can do it on two different cruise lines, and it will still be a violation, but because you are on two different lines, it is not likely that it would be caught. If you were trying to do it on two different ships of the same line, the booking agent/system would catch it and cancel one. EM

[SeattleCruiselover]

You're wrong. Closed loop cruises require a call at a foreign port. Open jaw cruise requires a stop at a distant foreign port. Vancouver, while a foreign port, does not qualify a distant foreign port. "Distant foreign port " is defined in the law.

 

There are any number of posters on Cruise Critic who understand the scope of the question and can answer it.

 

This is correct. The nearest distant foreign port to Seattle is the ABC Islands (Aruba, Bonaire and Curacao), though I'm not at all certain that Siberia might not qualify as well.

[Talisker92]

OK here is the scoop-The Jones act was to prevent a thing called cabotage, in which a foreign flagged vessel is not allowed to take passengers just between 2 US ports. This was to "protect" the US shipping industry, which is non-existant. Almost all, if not all, major cruise lines are flagged in Nassau, Panama,etc.-called "flags of convenience". This exempts them from US labor laws such as minimum wage.

The word "distant" is confusing-the real requirement is that it be a foreign port. As an example, a HAL ship going from San Diego to Hawaii stops at Ensenada (a foreign port).

NCL ships that cruise Hawaii have to go to Kiribati (a foreign port).

I hope this clears things up

[Cuizer2]

You can do it on two different cruise lines, and it will still be a violation, but because you are on two different lines, it is not likely that it would be caught. If you were trying to do it on two different ships of the same line, the booking agent/system would catch it and cancel one. EM

 

If you are on two different ships it would not be a violation. The law refers to a ship, meaning a single ship. A foreign flagged ship could take someone from Seattle to Vancouver. A different foreign flagged ship could then take that same person from Vancouver to Los Angeles. Neither foreign flagged ship violated the PVSA (which is NOT the same as the Jones Act).

[Cuizer2]

This is correct. The nearest distant foreign port to Seattle is the ABC Islands (Aruba, Bonaire and Curacao), though I'm not at all certain that Siberia might not qualify as well.

 

Siberia is a distant foreign port under the PVSA.

[Cuizer2]

OK here is the scoop-The Jones act was to prevent a thing called cabotage, in which a foreign flagged vessel is not allowed to take passengers just between 2 US ports. This was to "protect" the US shipping industry, which is non-existant. Almost all, if not all, major cruise lines are flagged in Nassau, Panama,etc.-called "flags of convenience". This exempts them from US labor laws such as minimum wage.

The word "distant" is confusing-the real requirement is that it be a foreign port. As an example, a HAL ship going from San Diego to Hawaii stops at Ensenada (a foreign port).

NCL ships that cruise Hawaii have to go to Kiribati (a foreign port).

I hope this clears things up

 

You have your facts wrong. The law that concerns passengers ships is the PVSA, which is NOT the Jones act. It prevents transport between two US cities unless there is a stop at a distant foreign port. Not just any foreign port will do. There are no distant foreign ports in North or Central America. A cruise from Seattle to Los Angeles stopping in Vancouver would violate the PVSA.

 

The ships going from San Diego (and Los Angeles) to Hawaii do stop in Ensenada, but they return to San Diego (or Los Angles) thus making the cruise a round trip or closed loop cruise. Closed loop cruise require a stop at at least one foreign port (any foreign port) if any port stops are made (a CTN does not require a stop at a foreign port).

[smeyer418]

a trip on the same cruise ship even distinct segments is considered one voyage no matter how many trips the cruise company charges for so the entire cruise must comply for any passenger so sailing. So Seattle to LA without a distant foreign port in between is a violation.

 

 

Its an interesting question about the same cruise line as opposed to the same ship. No cruise line advertises these. I am sure that any subterfuge by a cruise line having a different ship meet people to avoid the law would be eventually a violation. Its clearly legal to do this on two different cruise lines who were not conspiring to violate the law....

 

and finally as I was recently corrected the Vancouver to Seattle ship run would be covered by a passport card or enhanced driver's license besides a passport.

[Twickenham]

There was a thread a while ago on the HAL board where it was debated at great length whether such a combination on 2 separate ships, but the same line (or different lines) would in fact be a violation of the PVSA. I believe one of the posters was going to attempt to get some official confirmation one way or another, but I don't think an answer was ever posted, or in any case I never saw it.

 

The exact wording of the Passenger Vessel Services Act:

 

No foreign vessel shall transport passengers between ports or places in the United States, either directly or by way of a foreign port, under a penalty of $300 for each passenger so transported and landed.

 

As far as I'm concerned, the way it is worded, it applies to an individual vessel. As long as more than one vessel is involved, a journey such as what you propose would be perfectly legal.

[Cruisin' Chick]

OK here is the scoop-The Jones act was to prevent a thing called cabotage, in which a foreign flagged vessel is not allowed to take passengers just between 2 US ports. This was to "protect" the US shipping industry, which is non-existant. Almost all, if not all, major cruise lines are flagged in Nassau, Panama,etc.-called "flags of convenience". This exempts them from US labor laws such as minimum wage.

The word "distant" is confusing-the real requirement is that it be a foreign port. As an example, a HAL ship going from San Diego to Hawaii stops at Ensenada (a foreign port).

NCL ships that cruise Hawaii have to go to Kiribati (a foreign port).

I hope this clears things up

 

 

Actually I believe NCL no longer does the Hawaiian cruises that go to Kiribati. The NCLa cruises are exempted from the PVSA rules as NCL managed to get a manipulation of the law that allows them to count the Pride ship (used to be three of them) as American-flagged. So that ship sticks around the islands.

 

You have your facts wrong. The law that concerns passengers ships is the PVSA, which is NOT the Jones act. It prevents transport between two US cities unless there is a stop at a distant foreign port. Not just any foreign port will do. There are no distant foreign ports in North or Central America. A cruise from Seattle to Los Angeles stopping in Vancouver would violate the PVSA.

 

The ships going from San Diego (and Los Angeles) to Hawaii do stop in Ensenada, but they return to San Diego (or Los Angles) thus making the cruise a round trip or closed loop cruise. Closed loop cruise require a stop at at least one foreign port (any foreign port) if any port stops are made (a CTN does not require a stop at a foreign port).

[smeyer418]

There was a thread a while ago on the HAL board where it was debated at great length whether such a combination on 2 separate ships, but the same line (or different lines) would in fact be a violation of the PVSA. I believe one of the posters was going to attempt to get some official confirmation one way or another, but I don't think an answer was ever posted, or in any case I never saw it.

 

The exact wording of the Passenger Vessel Services Act:

 

 

 

As far as I'm concerned, the way it is worded, it applies to an individual vessel. As long as more than one vessel is involved, a journey such as what you propose would be perfectly legal.

 

 

when I graduated from law school, we were reminded that you didn't also get a crystal ball. What you quote could easily be interpreted to include more than one ship from the same cruise line being prohibited from indirectly doing what was directly prohibited: as the intent by congress was to surely prohibit someone providing transportation between two different US ports irrespective if it was on more than one ship from the same cruise line. The term "vessel" could be found not to mean individual ship as an example but any vessel owned by the same cruise line or by cruise lines acting in concert.

 

As many know most people assumed that the American Disability Act would not apply to foreign flagged cruise ships stopping at US ports but the US Supreme Court to the surprise of many, found otherwise.

[smeyer418]

BTW here is an interesting(for me anyway) discussion on an issue where judges and commentators can reasonably disagree..

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/14/us/14gps.html?hpw

[spongerob]

Interesting, but strange question. What cruise line does a 1 day cruise from Seattle to Vancouver? . . . . what you are asking, IMHO, is beyond the scope of the average traveler.

It's actually pretty easy to understand if you know your geography and understand the definitions.

 

US port - any port in the United States including Hawaii and Alaska.

NEAR foreign port - any port outside the United States but still in North or Central America

DISTANT foreign port - a foreign port located anywhere outside the US except North and Central America (those are the NEAR ports)

 

A foreign flagged ship cannot allow passengers to embark at one US port and disembark at a different US port unless certain conditions are met. It does not matter how the trip is segmented. The only concern is where you get on the ship and where you get off.

 

Passengers cannot disembark a ship permanently at a different US port than their port of embarkation unless the ship first stops at a DISTANT foreign port. It has to be outside North or Central America, in other words.

 

Passengers can visit a US port along the way so long as the trip includes any foreign port call, but cannot permanently disembark. In other words, you can get off, but have to get back on before the ship leaves.

 

Cruise lines have to do short 1 and 2 day repos on the west coast so that they remain in compliance when it's time to move the ships back to the Caribbean or Southern California during the winter. So, a ship based in Seattle will do an overnight to Vancouver, boot everyone off, and load a new bunch for the trip from Vancouver to LA, or San Fran, or San Diego.

 

People often try to book both cruises and are told, "No, you can't do that!" by the cruise line since the total trip (Seattle-LA, for example) does not include the DISTANT port call. People will either stay a day or two in Vancouver and get a different ship from the same company, or book a return trip with a different cruise line. Either way it's okay because it's not the same ship.

 

Technically I believe that you are required to stay overnight if you take two different ships but I don't think it is possible to enforce as long as you use different cruise lines.

[ASeaPrincess1]

Correct it is a violation because it is a cruise from Seattle to LA (doesn't matter how the cruiseline sells it) without a stop in a distant foreign port.

That's what I thought...........:(

Bummer.......that would make a cool little B2B2B with only a one-way flight from LA to Seattle...........cruise back down.......:cool:

[wrp96]

That's what I thought...........:(

Bummer.......that would make a cool little B2B2B with only a one-way flight from LA to Seattle...........cruise back down.......:cool:

 

 

What a lot of people do is book the roundtrip Alaska cruise, then look for the one way on another ship a day later. If you time it correctly it can work out to a nice trip.

[scottbee]

That's what I thought...........:(

Bummer.......that would make a cool little B2B2B with only a one-way flight from LA to Seattle...........cruise back down.......:cool:

 

Yes, but you could...

SEATTLE - RT

Bus/Train/Plane SEATTLE-VANCOUVER

VANCOUVER-LA