Engineering Soundness of HAL

[VioletHorse]

Granted some passengers would still ignore this, but what about the passengers who do not really know and understand the consequences for these particular acts. I didn't know how inteconnected an open balcony door was to all those other cabins. Or realize that occasional funky smell can come when someone else up the line flushes ....rocks :confused: ... down the toilet up the line.

 

So how can those who need to know this, who would follow the requirements better (these are not really rules -- they are requirements before agreeing to board this ship and share this space with 1000 plus other passengers) get the message. I think they should address all three of these issues, short and sweet , at the lifeboat drill.

 

Just remind everyone when we are all together for the first time what the new ship environment demands that are different from land based vacation abodes. Get everyone to realize their cabins are interconnected and what they do with both the plumbing and the ventilation affects many other people and we are all in this together .

 

They do a good job on hand washing and lots of people "get it". They need to add these too -- or at least a special announcement to the verandah cabin passengers about the doors, but even the other passengers in inside and window cabins need to also know their problems with their cabins may in fact come from some of the surrounding verandahs and to watch out for this if they get to know their cabin neighbors.

 

Here too is another thought -- because HAL allows smoking in their cabins do some smokers in the verandah cabins leave their doors open to air them out and then cause these A/C problems around them?

 

There should be some sort of short video about all of this too that gets played at certain times and even before the first few shows, just like airline passengers get. We are all in this together and a little extra cruise protocol education can go a long way.

 

We sure don't like the consequences of any of these recurrent Big Three problems (hand-washing--balcony doors--waste disposal in toilets), so I think it could not be worse to get bombarded a little bit with some prevention messages. I know hearing the hand-washing announcements over and over again has made using the sanitizers now automatic behavior and just part of the ship board routine now.

 

Being asked to think about what people put down their toilets is a little less appealing, but I think this can be handled with some charm and humor to get the point across - particularly heightening the awareness about the differences being on a ship - some sort of "Now That You Are On a Ship and You Will Need To Do a Few Things Differently".

 

I agree with the specific announcements about hand-washing, balcony doors, and toilet etiquette. However to make them effective you've got to have a captive audience who have nothing else to do but to pay attention to them.

 

My DD and I took our first non-HAL cruise this past June on the Caribbean Princess. Princess does their safety drills differently. They do not have any assembly on outside decks, but rather have assigned muster stations at various venues throughout the ship (Theater, restaurants, lounges). Our station was the Crown Grill (Pinnacle Grill equivalent). Everyone was seated at tables and booths. There were crew/staff positioned strategically throughout the restaurant. People chatted quietly until the announcements commenced. The loss of anonymity stopped the stupid comments, whistle blowing and general lack of attention that we've seen at every safety drill on HAL. Anyone who made a comment in this venue quickly realized that all eyes were on them since it was very easy to see who was talking. Everyone was silent.

 

After the general info about the safety drill was given, the captain then proceeded to read the Riot Act to the parents of the many children who were on that cruise. In no uncertain terms he told the parents that they were responsible for their children's behavior, and would have to deal with him if their kids misbehaved. Apparently it worked since all we saw on that 9 day cruise were well behaved kids.

 

I'd like to think that there was compliance with the captain's speech about the children's behavior due to the fact that everyone was forced to listen to it, based on the physical set up of the safety drill in smaller, indoor, comfortable venues that took the group/mob mentality out of the picture. It resulted in people actually listening to the announcements. I also think that unless HAL went to a similar model for their safety drills, all the announcements about hand washing, balcony doors and toilets would largely fall on deaf ears. And anyone who ever stood on the sunny side of the deck for a drill in Ft. Lauderdale knows how physically uncomfortable it can be. There's nothing more that you want to do but get out of there as quickly as possible, which certainly is another huge distraction.

 

To be honest, I probably would pay as much attention to a video about these issues as I would to the video of the port shopping rep (I don't watch TV on a cruise - that's something that I can do at home). And I haven't attended the Captain's welcome aboard party in several years. The safety drill is the only place where those rules can be stated so that everyone hears them at the same time. The trick is to get everyone to digest it and realize that it does pertain to them.

[SwissMyst]

You can't be serious!?!?!? What a festive and uplifiting opening act that would make. :rolleyes:

 

Perhaps the Captain's welcome aboard champagne toast would be another viable venue? The Chief Engineer could pronounce the do's and don'ts of proper toilet flushing, complete with a PowerPoint presentation containing graphic photos :eek: of the consequences of improper flushing techniques.

 

Then, the Hotel Manager could expound on the expected horrors when balcony doors are propped open. This would be accompanied by a few short passenger-made videos of sweat-soaked husbands and wives trying to dress for formal night in overheated cabins. Of course, these poor heat exhausted souls would eventually give up on donning the formal wear and opt for the more practical attire of shorts, tee-shirts, flip flops and ball caps to hide their wilted hair. :cool:

 

We should take note of the "overheated cabin" issue and never look down on those wearing such attire on formal nights ever again...they may have been victims of the dreaded "Veendam-like a/c catastrophe." ;) A public service announcement of this type may be the catalyst that changes the way people think about those who are improperly dressed on formal night....pity would be taken on them instead of contempt. :D

 

Mocking and dismissal of real problems is not the answer either. If any of this can be prevented ahead of time by public service announcements, just like we are now getting about hand washing, why the automatic derision and exaggerated rejection of this common sense idea and distorting how this was presented in a helpful context?

 

Can you back up a bit and re-read what was offered because we keep seeing issues of malfunctioning A/C, clogged toilets and funky smells getting reported over and over again.

 

Each of these issues appears to be tied also to passenger behavior, as much as it might have to do with internal ship maintenance issues. Please, be more helpful when benign suggestions for prevention based upon passenger behavior are suggested.

 

We listen to announcements about hand-washing that is related to bathroom habits and prevention of some pretty disgusting intestinal conditions and it does not "ruin" someone's vacation having to listen to these warnings. Yet, you make it sound like it would be too disgusting to remind people to always keep balcony doors closed and not use toilets for improper waste disposal that clogs up systems up and down the line a bad thing? Please explain.

[iancal]

I suspect that the issue is similar to the ongoing challenge that HAL seems to have with drydock, ie HAL want to keep it ships on revenue duty as much as possible. HAL ships coming out of drydock have been a customer satisfaction disaster lately probably because too little time was budgeted for too much work. Similarly, HAL may know what the A/C engineering challenge is but have decided on the trade-off between repair and revenue. Revenue won out....and they will deal with the customer complaints from those poor souls who end up in the hot cabins.

[SwissMyst]

I agree with the specific announcements about hand-washing, balcony doors, and toilet etiquette. However to make them effective you've got to have a captive audience who have nothing else to do but to pay attention to them.

 

My DD and I took our first non-HAL cruise this past June on the Caribbean Princess. Princess does their safety drills differently. They do not have any assembly on outside decks, but rather have assigned muster stations at various venues throughout the ship (Theater, restaurants, lounges). Our station was the Crown Grill (Pinnacle Grill equivalent). Everyone was seated at tables and booths. There were crew/staff positioned strategically throughout the restaurant. People chatted quietly until the announcements commenced. The loss of anonymity stopped the stupid comments, whistle blowing and general lack of attention that we've seen at every safety drill on HAL. Anyone who made a comment in this venue quickly realized that all eyes were on them since it was very easy to see who was talking. Everyone was silent.

 

After the general info about the safety drill was given, the captain then proceeded to read the Riot Act to the parents of the many children who were on that cruise. In no uncertain terms he told the parents that they were responsible for their children's behavior, and would have to deal with him if their kids misbehaved. Apparently it worked since all we saw on that 9 day cruise were well behaved kids.

 

I'd like to think that there was compliance with the captain's speech about the children's behavior due to the fact that everyone was forced to listen to it, based on the physical set up of the safety drill in smaller, indoor, comfortable venues that took the group/mob mentality out of the picture. It resulted in people actually listening to the announcements. I also think that unless HAL went to a similar model for their safety drills, all the announcements about hand washing, balcony doors and toilets would largely fall on deaf ears. And anyone who ever stood on the sunny side of the deck for a drill in Ft. Lauderdale knows how physically uncomfortable it can be. There's nothing more that you want to do but get out of there as quickly as possible, which certainly is another huge distraction.

 

To be honest, I probably would pay as much attention to a video about these issues as I would to the video of the port shopping rep (I don't watch TV on a cruise - that's something that I can do at home). And I haven't attended the Captain's welcome aboard party in several years. The safety drill is the only place where those rules can be stated so that everyone hears them at the same time. The trick is to get everyone to digest it and realize that it does pertain to them.

 

You have offered some excellent suggestions here. Thank you. I hope HAL gives this some serious consideration. Ships are different environments and we all do need to get some reminders about what is required (not suggested) when our individual actions have such material impacts on people all over the ship, that we may not have even considered before.

 

The captain is in total command of all of our lives as soon as we board, so any changes like this have to be presented first from the top down for best effectiveness. But certainly reading all the information presented here, I know I have learned a lot more about all this interconnectedness of ships systems, than I have ever emphasized gotten onboard. And I think this is a deficiency.

 

Yes, I have seen the sign to keep doors closed on the balcony doors and we never thought about leaving them open in the first place, but I had no idea how other cabins were so intimately connected and that one open balcony door could cause so much A/C havoc to all the other interconnected cabins.

 

Do smokers air out their verandah cabins with good intention and not really understand they are fouling things up for others well beyond their own confines when they keep their own balcony doors open?

 

Sleepers who do like fresh air at night but who don't know they are making other cabins miserably hot well beyond their own important concerns for themselves? Home flushing habits that if exercised on a ship might well invade others all around them that they don't even know or see.

 

The fact this is a vacation and meant to be carefree as much as possible, doesn't take away these serious mutually cooperative requirements anymore than sitting through airplane safety lectures and always checking no matter how often we have flown, where exactly is that exit located nearest us.

 

Again, thank you for your very helpful suggestions and experiences on other ships that can be a model for changes at HAL.

 

BTW: in all our HAL trips we have never had plumbing or AC problem so chances are most people will not, and most people are exercising proper behavior already because this is very seasoned traveller crowd on HAL ships. But no one can ignore problems, isolated or not, continue to be of concern and there is a passenger behavior part of each of them that does deserve looking into more preventive actions being taken that include all of us, even if we personally have never experienced the problems. But I think we all would like to know everything is being done so hopefully we never will.

[SwissMyst]

I suspect that the issue is similar to the ongoing challenge that HAL seems to have with drydock, ie HAL want to keep it ships on revenue duty as much as possible. HAL ships coming out of drydock have been a customer satisfaction disaster lately probably because too little time was budgeted for too much work. Similarly, HAL may know what the A/C engineering challenge is but have decided on the trade-off between repair and revenue. Revenue won out....and they will deal with the customer complaints from those poor souls who end up in the hot cabins.

 

Those poor souls in the hot cabins may well be connected to those unknowing souls who have forced their balcony door to stay open for any number of reasons. This possibility also very much has to be on the table too as we hope HAL finds solutions for this recurrent problem.

[Ship's Wake]

I suspect that the issue is similar to the ongoing challenge that HAL seems to have with drydock, ie HAL want to keep it ships on revenue duty as much as possible. HAL ships coming out of drydock have been a customer satisfaction disaster lately probably because too little time was budgeted for too much work. Similarly, HAL may know what the A/C engineering challenge is but have decided on the trade-off between repair and revenue. Revenue won out....and they will deal with the customer complaints from those poor souls who end up in the hot cabins.

 

Agreed - this is a plausible scenario.

[dan40]

I'm curious about the engineering soundness of HAL as it relates to passenger comfort.

All cruise forums contain complaints about ships and their operations.

However, these complaints tend to fall into the subjective area of service (including excursions and entertainment) and food.

This forum has it's share of those issues, but also contains a fair number of AC and bathroom concerns.

These concerns seem to be (a) more objective--my AC didn't work, I had no hot water, and my toilet didn't flush and (b)

more ongoing and unrelenting than let's say a bad meal or bad waiter.

Is there an issue with the engineering soundness of the HAL fleet?

 

 

Imagine any large city with a set of buildings about 14 stories high, one block wide and three blocks long. At any given time there will be an occasional A/C problem, hot water problem, etc. A cruise ship is that big and it doesn't just sit there on the street. It moves constantly, sometimes being shaken by large waves [ive experienced 40 footers] and always being shaken by small waves. And it is being used by 2000 to 3000 mostly new tenants each week. And salt water is highly corrosive and hates everything. Ask anyone that has ever owned a boat in salt water.

 

It is amazing that ships don't have more problems.

[bob brown]

The question of engineering blame for a/c and mechanical problems can get very complicated....you must consider the designer and builder of the ship, the builder of one or more subsystems involved, the maintenance commitment of the cruise line, the actual skill and performance of the technicians working on the ship in question.....it all can make it hard to assess actual blame for a failure.

[SwissMyst]

All being said well and good, but still if one does get a genuinely clinker cabin and not just a temporary repairable glitch situation, what is the obligation of the cruise line to that passenger?

 

Because I do think also the passenger has an obligation to the cruise line to not foul up complex and important ships systems with their own careless and independent choices that cause trouble for others. And one obligation is to accept there can be these almost predictable temporary and repairable glitches because ships are ships and the passenger chose a ship.

 

The truly unfortunate situation are those who have done nothing to foul up their own A/C or plumbing systems but are on the receiving end of careless actions by others or internal systems failures that exceed the ability of the ship to repair them and they are asked to accept this materially inferior cabin situation for the duration of their trip, as has been asserted here.

 

Should they be offered a free trip home, a replacement cabin if available no matter where it is located, a discount, particularly when the replacement cabin is of lesser quality, or just accept they drew the unlucky straw this time and suffer around it? We agree, ship happens. But then what when one is truly affected in this material and objective way for the entire duration of their trip? ("Too hot" and "I could not sleep" are not objective complaints.)

[DizzyDallasDi]

Mocking and dismissal of real problems is not the answer either. If any of this can be prevented ahead of time by public service announcements, just like we are now getting about hand washing, why the automatic derision and exaggerated rejection of this common sense idea and distorting how this was presented in a helpful context?

 

Can you back up a bit and re-read what was offered because we keep seeing issues of malfunctioning A/C, clogged toilets and funky smells getting reported over and over again.

 

Each of these issues appears to be tied also to passenger behavior, as much as it might have to do with internal ship maintenance issues. Please, be more helpful when benign suggestions for prevention based upon passenger behavior are suggested.

 

We listen to announcements about hand-washing that is related to bathroom habits and prevention of some pretty disgusting intestinal conditions and it does not "ruin" someone's vacation having to listen to these warnings. Yet, you make it sound like it would be too disgusting to remind people to always keep balcony doors closed and not use toilets for improper waste disposal that clogs up systems up and down the line a bad thing? Please explain.

 

Emphasis mine...

 

Not worth my time or effort.

[PaulMCO]

The question of engineering blame for a/c and mechanical problems can get very complicated....you must consider the designer and builder of the ship, the builder of one or more subsystems involved, the maintenance commitment of the cruise line, the actual skill and performance of the technicians working on the ship in question.....it all can make it hard to assess actual blame for a failure.

 

Especially considering that HAL and its engineers has redesigned the ship several times with additions that go beyond the original shipbuilders design.

 

Yes there could be design issues or marginal HVAC systems that are now causing problems because of the design changes. You certainly do not here about these issues on the Vista class (newer) ships??

[prescottbob]

Ethnic jokes do not qualify as adult humor.

 

I am sure you would not appreciate it we dumped on the Dutch.

 

...Dutch "dump". I understand from prior posts that 'he'

also enjoys the humor of someone like Don Rickels (me too).

 

IMO, it would be great if folks didn't take themselves too seriously.

 

In the Don Rickels example, everyone was 'open game' regardless of race, color, creed or sexual orientation.

 

Somehow we laughed and found ourselves without anger or hatred.

 

Enjoy. Life is too short.

 

Bon Voyage and Good Health!

Bob:)

[Copper10-8]

...Dutch "dump". I understand from prior posts that 'he'

also enjoys the humor of someone like Don Rickels (me too).

 

IMO, it would be great if folks didn't take themselves too seriously.

 

In the Don Rickels example, everyone was 'open game' regardless of race, color, creed or sexual orientation.

 

Somehow we laughed and found ourselves without anger or hatred.

 

Enjoy. Life is too short.

 

Bon Voyage and Good Health!

Bob:)

 

Dutch Dump you say? Hey now Mr. Bob, the interior plumbing is working fine here! No need for prune juice yet;)

[RedmondCruiser]

Rather than blame the engineering staff for the AC problems, a new cabin catagory should be coined.

Make all the cabins with ongoing AC problems a class

ACCR room. "Air Conditioned Challanged Room" set it up at a low low price and market it. They can even get a complementary fan and sweat rags. That way at least you get what you paid for.

[dan40]

Rather than blame the engineering staff for the AC problems, a new cabin catagory should be coined.

 

Make all the cabins with ongoing AC problems a class

ACCR room. "Air Conditioned Challanged Room" set it up at a low low price and market it. They can even get a complementary fan and sweat rags. That way at least you get what you paid for.

 

 

Ahhh, An OBSTRUCTED A/C cabin!!:D:D

[krusin']

It's a nice idea but even if they sign such a 'considerate behaviour contract' some selfish people will still do exactly as they please and too bad if it impacts on someone else's comfort, enjoyment or even health. It's also impossible to enforce without intrusive "policing" and the overworked HAL staff have enough to do already.

 

If the OP's "engineering" issues are really a euphemism for yet another thread about A/C problems it's been discussed to death elsewhere and the concensus seems to be that any problems that do exist are caused for the most part by the inconsiderate behaviour of other passengers. I think HAL could and should be a lot more proactive in enouraging everyone's cooperation on these particular issues. A lot of people genuinely don't understand the impact of leaving a verandah door open because they aren't being told clearly or often enough.

 

On our first cruise we thought how wonderfull to hear the waves as we dozed off to sleep so we left the door open. What a surprise when the smoke alarm went off at 3 A.M.! The resulting fog set it off!

Never again - turn off the A/C.

[iancal]

There can be lots of reasons and I am certain that HAL would like to 'trade' a little on the notion that some cabins are hot because other passengers have left their balcony doors open.

 

The follow up question that I would have for HAL in this instance is does this situation occur on other ships in their fleet because I have not heard of it. I am not sure if it happens with any degree of regularity on other ships. If the answer is no, then that nice explanation that appears to put the blame on other cruisers falls to the bottom of the ash pit.

 

The bottom line is that some luckless poor souls who have saved for their vacation and are potentially using up valuable vacation days from work are stuck in cabin environment that takes the lustre off their vacation and probably destroys their predisposition to sail on HAL again....this is a shame.

[bepsf]

I'm wondering if the Rotterdam's post dry Dock cruise and the complaints could be why the Westerdam did not go back into service immediately after it went through Dry Dock a few months later.... It did an empty cruise of the Med I believe....

 

Joanie

 

Nope - it was a Charter cruise.

[IRL_Joanie]

Nope - it was a Charter cruise.

 

Question for you regarding that Charter. Was she one of the ships that was supposed to be in South Africa and instead the same people who did not need her there take her as a Charter??

 

I mind is old, and I am blond... I think I remember reading that a few months ago but....Cannot remember details today:(

 

Joanie

[Copper10-8]

Question for you regarding that Charter. Was she one of the ships that was supposed to be in South Africa and instead the same people who did not need her there take her as a Charter??

 

I mind is old, and I am blond... I think I remember reading that a few months ago but....Cannot remember details today:(

 

Joanie

 

You've got her (Westerdam) mixed up with Noordam. Westerdam did a German-organized charter to South Africa for the football World Cup, stayed there (Port Elizabeth, SA) as an accomodation/hotel ship under charter and sailed back to Europe as a charter before picking up her regular schedule.

Noordam was supposed to do the same thing but the German organizer cancelled her (I'm sure at a hefty penalty/cost) prior to the start of the WC. She was the one who sailed part of the Med, Eastern Atlantic, Bay of Biscay, English Channel and North Sea w/o pax, before going in a (moved up) dry-dock in Hamburg, Germany