Have I Entered the Country?

[sail7seas]

If I am on a cruise ship that ties up in a port in a country other than the one from which I embarked the ship, have I entered that country if I do not leave the ship?

 

Does the foreign country have 'jurisdiction' over me if I never cross the gangway?

 

I am asking this as a general question of interest to me but that arose from a comment on another thread here on HAL CC relating to yellow fever shots.

 

Thanks.

[BruceMuzz]

For most countries on this planet, as soon as your ship enters their territorial waters, everyone onboard is subject to their legal system.

 

It makes no difference that you do not leave the ship in port.

 

Due to overlapping jurisdiction based on the registry and flag of the ship, there are certain legal "grey areas" that are often sidestepped if possible. It sometimes can get extremely complicated, debating international maritime law versus local law.

 

When your foreign flag cruise ship enters a US Port, the US Customs and Immigration people are not very shy about searching you and your cabin without warrant or cause if they feel the need.

[Maryandi]

The answer is Yes. When you go to check in for the cruise, the desk person will not let you board unless you have a visa for that country (where required). Even if you were in a wheelchair and never leave the ship - that visa is still required or they do not let you on the ship.

 

The 'territorial waters' around each country is considered their territory and they can board ships, etc. The USA has such restrictions also.

[sail7seas]

Thanks, BruceMuzz.

The main reason this peaked my interest was a comment (paraphrased here), that if a person cannot have yellow fever shot for medical reasons, HAL will permit the guest to sail with an appropriate doctors letter explaining the medical reason but a country which requires the shot may not permit the person ashore, may refuse the letter and MAY vaccinate on the spot. That disturbed me. If the guest is not leaving the ship due to denial by the 'host country', can they actually force this guest to take a vaccination that could injure his health and, indeed, could kill them?

 

 

 

[mudscraper]

There was a thread on CC a couple years ago where numerous cruisers were denied boarding on embarkation day in Florida because the didn`t obtain their visas for Brazill (I believe) using the excuse that they wouldn`t get off the ship in Brazil. I believe it involved around 100 passengers. I don`t recall which cruise line.

[sail7seas]

I am not talking about failure to have a Visa and HAL refusing boarding. I am interested about someone who has boarded, is on the ship and arrives in a (any) foreign port. What jurisdiction does that port have over a guest who remains aboard making no attempt to leave the ship?

[fann1sh]

Sail, BruceMuzz's comment about legal "grey areas" is as close as you're likely to come to an answer.

 

Countries with laws like this aren't going to publicly admit, "Well...no....we won't actually board the ship and wrestle the pax to the ground to inoculate him." Loss of face, loss of sovereignty. They're going to maintain, "According to our laws, we could."

 

A self important minor official could certainly posture about it, creating chaos in their wake and a flurry of calls to diplomatic and legal higher ups.

 

"Does a nation have the right to do this, even if it results in death?" would only be definitively decided by a court, after the fact.

 

Cold comfort to the passenger.

[sail7seas]

Thanks, Patricia. Great response and I'm sure you have it exactly right.

 

[Essiesmom]

Princess did an interesting twist on this on our 1999 SA cruise. We boarded in Buenos Aires, going to Manaus with multiple stops in Brazil. There were quite a few on the ship who had done the previous cruise from Valpariaso. One woman - not sure if she boarded in BA or was already onboard - did not have a visa for Brazil. They put her off the ship the next day in Montevideo and she had to get her Brazil visa there and make her way to our next stop, Rio de Janiero, at her own expense. EM

[Crusing Bob]

The whole purpose of having the shot before you leave is to protect you when in a country where yellow fever is known to be an issue. You are not bringing it in but you could contract it depending upon where you happen to be in that countryside. I do not believe you have to prove you had the shot since it's entirely up to you to protect yourself. I have traveled all over the world and to some areas where if you were going to be around a farm or where mosquitoes are prevalent or some other concerns, then you need to do as recommended and that is what I have done but I also have no adverse reactions to consider.

[matondo]

Having lived on the dark continent for a number of years where quite a few countries require the yellow fever shot; normally, when there is an irregularity with the vaccination card, paying to have the vaccine might be required but we have never heard of someone acutally having to take the shot.

[Essiesmom]

The whole purpose of having the shot before you leave is to protect you when in a country where yellow fever is known to be an issue. You are not bringing it in but you could contract it depending upon where you happen to be in that countryside. I do not believe you have to prove you had the shot since it's entirely up to you to protect yourself. I have traveled all over the world and to some areas where if you were going to be around a farm or where mosquitoes are prevalent or some other concerns, then you need to do as recommended and that is what I have done but I also have no adverse reactions to consider.

This is not the whole story. Sometimes you must have a record of having had the shot, because after visiting a country where yellow fever is endemic, you visit another country where it is not. And they don't want you to bring it in. So they require people coming from that endemic country to have had the shot. EM

[Crusing Bob]

But in response to Sail's point, if someone's life would be threatened by having the shot, they would be entitled to stay aboard without having a shot and if they travel on to another country there would be a record by the ship that this person never left the ship. I think this is the whole point.

 

I do stand corrected though that other countries would need to be assured that this person had the shot if they intend to enter their country and had visited a country where yellow fever or some other disease could be contracted and no vaccine had been administered.

[chrispb]

This is not the whole story. Sometimes you must have a record of having had the shot, because after visiting a country where yellow fever is endemic, you visit another country where it is not. And they don't want you to bring it in. So they require people coming from that endemic country to have had the shot. EM

That's quite correct. It is one of the questions on visa forms for some countries "have you been to one of the following countries within the last 6 months" (I seem to recall 6 months anyway). If you tick the yes box then you will be required to show your vaccination certificate as proof.

[whogo]

That's quite correct. It is one of the questions on visa forms for some countries "have you been to one of the following countries within the last 6 months" (I seem to recall 6 months anyway). If you tick the yes box then you will be required to show your vaccination certificate as proof.

 

Here is a quote from the Consulate General of Brazil in Chicago's website:

 

Applicants who have visited certain countries and territories within 90 days prior to applying for a visa/entering Brazil are required to present a Yellow Fever International Certificate of Vaccination upon entering Brazil.

http://www.brazilconsulatechicago.org/en-2-10-0.html Their list of countries is here: http://www.brazilconsulatechicago.org/en-2-10-11.html

 

There seem to be a lot of cruisers who do not get the vaccine just because they are aged. I do not see that as being a reason on the CDC website. They just list infants under six months, pregnant women, those with egg allergies, and those with immunosuppressed conditions.

[sail7seas]

But in response to Sail's point, if someone's life would be threatened by having the shot, they would be entitled to stay aboard without having a shot and if they travel on to another country there would be a record by the ship that this person never left the ship. I think this is the whole point.

<snip>

 

 

 

Thanks, Bob. That is exactly my point.

[USN59-79]

We have cruised a number of times to South America and Asia where cholera, yellow fever and other shots were recommended or required. We have the shots and shot records, but I don't ever remember being asked to show the shot record to anyone. Even in Brazil where they came aboard and photographed and fingerprinted all the passengers. Does anyone remember having to turn in their shot record along with their passport?

[jhannah]

Wow. I always was under the impression that a passenger wouldn't be considered "in the country" until s/he set foot on terra firma. I understand about being in territorial waters; but how can that be considered "IN" the country?

 

I doubt even the most radical country would come aboard a passenger ship and force vaccinate a stay-aboard person who had no immunization record.

[iancal]

I believe that if you are in terr. waters then you are in country. Lots of discussion about that now but it has nothing to do with human rights and everything to do with mineral rights-especially oil.

[baldydj]

If I embark in Vancouver on Holland America on a cruise to Mexico, and not get off the ship in San Diego before going to Mexico, what country am I in?

[ricki]

For those who are unable to take the Yellow Fever injection, a physician's letter of explanation is required. There were several people who, for various reasons, were unable to take the inoculation on our cruise that stopped in Brazil. I do know that part of the reason that Yellow Fever vaccine was required was that this cruise was going to stop in Barbados and THEY require anyone coming from a country where Yellow Fever is endemic (Brazil) to have the vaccine.

 

We took it and had no reaction except a slightly sore arm for one day.

 

Ricki

[bishop84]

For most countries on this planet, as soon as your ship enters their territorial waters, everyone onboard is subject to their legal system.

 

It makes no difference that you do not leave the ship in port.

 

Due to overlapping jurisdiction based on the registry and flag of the ship, there are certain legal "grey areas" that are often sidestepped if possible. It sometimes can get extremely complicated, debating international maritime law versus local law.

 

When your foreign flag cruise ship enters a US Port, the US Customs and Immigration people are not very shy about searching you and your cabin without warrant or cause if they feel the need.

 

BruceMuzz, a very good answer! I have seen some cruisers who have found out the hard way that they have entered a country even without leaving the ship. When it comes to CBP not being shy IIRC they, in common with most customs officials worldwide, do not need a warrant on ships or even when they are ashore in the USA. However most CBP I have met appear to be very professional when it comes to searches (unlike another federal agency that likes to hang round airports and harass travelers).

[Twickenham]

Wow. I always was under the impression that a passenger wouldn't be considered "in the country" until s/he set foot on terra firma. I understand about being in territorial waters; but how can that be considered "IN" the country?

 

Because you've been cleared by the country's immigration service. All passengers on a ship need to be cleared by immigration officers before anyone is allowed off at a port of call.

[DizzyDallasDi]

Wow. I always was under the impression that a passenger wouldn't be considered "in the country" until s/he set foot on terra firma. I understand about being in territorial waters; but how can that be considered "IN" the country?

 

I think you're confusing "in" the country and "on" the country. ;)

[wander]

At least a few years ago there was a medical clinic about a mile from the port that specialized in giving shots such as yellow fever cruisers needed. I be they raked the money in with a somewhat captive "audience". On our first trip to SA for which we needed YF shots taxis full of cruisers left the ship to the clinic with folks needing the shot to board. They had not believed the notice sent by the cruise line (Princess) long before the cruise.