Idea for HAL's next new ship

[Gerd]

…

 

Hello "InTheWASide"

 

I cannot believe what Stein Kruse mentioned in your posted article – because its just the opposite what he said during its Nieuw Amsterdam first sailing…..?

 

But one think is strange in this story, and because we are sailing HAL since 14 years I should know where I talk about:

 

HAL vessels are perfect around the day – not to much animation, if any, but empty/dead after 10 a clock in the night. And this is forced by its actual HAL evening concept.

 

Before there was one high-light place of the evening entertainment – and this was the CrowsNest.

 

The major point is, on the MS Nieuw Amsterdam, there is even no more a dedicated place for those marvelous Filipinos Danse Orchestras.

This entitled Crows Nest Band did play in the there with feeling and pleasure, and they do for me a much better job then the HAL Cats can do…..:)

(With a exception, that’s where Jenny is the vocal).;)

 

 

This initiates me to make a comment about almost all latest new vessels on the marked. If I see all those publicized pictures, I must admit, that I do not like what I see.

 

I must admit, that especially the published pictures shows me a remarkable derivation from Cruise Vessel interior and ambiance, into an Art Deco appearance.

Because if I compare the interior on the old Ms Noordam, the actual Ms Prinsendam, and then the MS Nieuw Amsterdam, then those from other brand latest vessels are much to "Design " then stunning for me.

 

But the interior of the old vessel I would also not exactly copy.

 

It’s just somewhere between I would place the furniture, lounges, bars and so on.

Actually, the today given ambiance by this deco products is for me too much colored, more plastic and cold, then classic (even if it is wood, or other expensive stuff).

I do not feel myself home in those too much designer style products.

 

 

And another think on those new vessels do alienate me.

 

I do have strong doubts, that one really need on a cruise ship such kind of thinks like an ice-arena, an boxing-ring, roller-skates, surfing-pool and other gadgets in this directions.:confused:

 

=> And finally, does the cruise marked really needs to have any single vessels with as much as possible cabins, and al to be a party ship with loud music and twirling passengers around ?

 

 

Telling this, how – and with what kind of stuff – equipment – animation - attraction HAL will get people around the vessel, and especially after 10 PM ?

 

And what HAL will do with all its loyal, and older repeating passengers, do they will kick them out ??

 

 

Happy cruising

 

G E R D

 

 

[kazu]

something to keep in mind, not all of Hal's loyal passengers are 'old' and ready to die off. Many people have started cruising at a much younger age and have chosen HAL. The longer itineraries on any ship will always have an older demographic because those are the people with the time (whether it be vacation time or retired):D

[Sophiebaby]

I just disembarked the ms Rotterdam after a 30-day cruise. My opinion is that the "R" class is sheer perfection!:)

[3rdGenCunarder]

Posted by Barante:

There is also another possibility, of course, but not very likely. That HAL would be separated into two divisions: One developing a new HAL product with bigger ships and new entertainment concepts and some of the smaller ones deployed for a different, perhaps more traditional, niche.

 

I don't think this will happen. Carnival already has so many divisions that splitting HAL doesn't make sense. Unfortunately, Carnival likes "economy of scale," which usually means larger ships. HAL's niche has been smaller ships compared to Carnival's other mass-market lines. I would hate to see that change.

 

Posted by Gerd:

 

I must admit, that especially the published pictures shows me a remarkable derivation from Cruise Vessel interior and ambiance, into an Art Deco appearance.

Because if I compare the interior on the old Ms Noordam, the actual Ms Prinsendam, and then the MS Nieuw Amsterdam, then those from other brand latest vessels are much to "Design " then stunning for me.

 

 

I wouldn't call it Art Deco. Some of the old classic liners like SS France were Deco. I think what we're seeing now is a trend that has no name, unless you can call "Over the Top" a design movement. But I agree. They are trying so hard to get your attention that designers are close to turning "eye catching" in to "eyesore."

 

Posted by Gerd:

I do have strong doubts, that one really need on a cruise ship such kind of thinks like an ice-arena, an boxing-ring, roller-skates, surfing-pool and other gadgets in this directions.:confused:

 

=> And finally, does the cruise marked really needs to have any single vessels with as much as possible cabins, and al to be a party ship with loud music and twirling passengers around ?

 

 

I think ice rinks, surfing pools, climing walls are silly. Like the decorations, they're ways to get attention. But I guess some people like them, or the cruise lines wouldn't keep putting them on ships. And as for the party ships with loud music, yes, this is a very successful way to do business. Lots of cabins means lots of fares paid. And lots of partying means the bars take in a lot of money. This is not my idea of a good cruise, but it is what some people want.

 

HAL has a loyal following. I think the ambiance of the ships and the lifestyle aboard have as much to do with it as the itineraries. If they make too many changes, loyal Mariners will stick with them only so far, and then they may feel they have to look elsewhere.

[Boytjie]

Enough with this ship-sharing/cloning among lines!

 

Unfortunately that means more expensive to build unique ships.

[Boytjie]

Howabout the " Uberdam"? :D

 

Deeyamdam. :D

 

Bigdam.

[Boytjie]

One thing to consider if HAL stays with ships smaller that most other lines - they will be easier to fill as charters compared to the mega-ships. Atlantis may have been able to charter the Allure of the Seas this past February but I don't 6,000 passenger charters are easy to pull off a lot.

[sail7seas]

Lots of good points made here.

From the conversations we've had on various ships, I think it likely the next HAL ships will be in the 105,000 ton range.

 

Keeping in mind the enlargement of the Panama Canal, there are more options for large ships.

 

What saddens me is that it seems likely if a buyer can be found, the "S" and perhaps "R" ships will leave the fleet.

 

Money is made on larger ships, we are told.

From a personal perspective, I am grateful DH and I have been able to find much to love aboard the larger ships than we ever expected. While we will always have a strong attachment to the very special Maasdam, we certainly love Noordam and surprised ourselves to like Eurodam plenty well to have sailed five cruises on her.

 

I think the message for some of us long time HAL cruisers is that we love the crews and people of HAL and some (many ?)can adapt to the changes in the ships.

 

For our own reasons, we love the Caribbean 10-12 day cruises and 7 day b-to-b's for 14 days but it seems there are fewer sailings scheduled from FLL each winter. We tried to make a Westerdam booking this week for a fall cruise and could not. She won't be in FLL until later in the season.

 

HAL will build ships that will meet the needs of the projections they plan for their itineraries. Of course, world events can change everything in an instant but I speculate HAL wants more longer, more costly per diem cruises than the usual Caribbean runs. They need ships with enough acitivities and venues and comforts to meet expectations and attract those who are willing to pay for more costly cruises. We've watched HAL evolve through our years of cruising and there's no doubt the direction has changed... some for the better and some perhaps not exactly what we would have personally chosen to change.

 

I don't know how to run a cruise line but HAL certainly does. They've done it well for a great many years and I have confidence they have their finger on the pulses and know what they need to do to remain profitable and appealing.

 

Eurodam and from all I've heard/seen re: Nieuw Amsterdam are well on their way to meeting HAL's needs to (apparently) not quite there yet. I think 100,000 ton may get them 'there'.

 

JMO .......

[RevNeal]

HAL seems to be on the upward swing in incremental steps, not in huge leaps. I could easily be wrong, however my guess would be that the Line will add a new ship (or series of ships) in the ~2500 passenger range enabled by going to a post-panamax design that takes advantage of the new Panama Canal locks. In other words, the ships would have a wider beam than the current maximum, would be only a little longer, and probably wouldn't be any taller than the current Signature class.

 

I wouldn't be too happy with this, but it's probably coming. This being said, I don't think that adding a new series of ships means that HAL will automatically jettison it's smaller S ships if/when it adds even newer/larger vessels to the fleet. That assumption was proven wrong when the S-class ships were retained and upgraded even as the two Signatures were entering service. The S and R ships are growing in importance as being ships that (1) can be chartered, (2) can offer service in areas of the world where the larger ships can't go, (3) can offer service in markets where the larger ships would be more difficult to fill. In other words, keeping the S and R ships provides the Line with a great deal of flexibility in the kinds of cruise experiences they offer, the kinds of itineraries they can service, etc. This is a "good thing" in my opinion.

 

As of right now, relative to the economy and market-load, HAL is carrying a over-supply of cabin-space. This can be seen in their discounting of some cruises so-as to fill cabins that would otherwise sail empty at a higher price-point. I don't expect this situation to last forever, however. As the world-wide economy -- not to mention the US economy -- moves into a growth-zone over the next 48 months (sooner or later), I would expect HAL's cabin-load-glut to diminish as its supply/demand dynamic shifts back into higher profitability. This will mean (1) an increase in costs for those of us who love to cruise, (2) hopefully an increase in the quality of service and product, and (3) a move to meet the increased demand with more supply. Hence, new ships.

 

To hit the supply/demand up-tick on the edge, and not lag behind the curve, it will be necessary for HAL to move from the pre-planning to the design and buildings phases sooner rather than later. Announcing a new series sometime this year, laying keel in mid/late 2012, and then launching in late 2013 or early 2014 would not be unreasonable (not based upon prior projects). This means that HAL has a few more years to continue to increase fleet staffing levels so-as to meet the demand when the day comes that they have to staff a MUCH larger ship as the first of several.

[ironin]

I hope you are ultimately proven right about the ship size, Sail! There doesn't seem to be much hope they will build smaller or even continue with the latest generation.

 

The gargantuan new-builds for other lines just don't appeal to me. Their destinations turn out to be rather pedestrian, too, because there are only so many ports that can accommodate them. (Has anyone here ever tendered off a 3000+ passenger ship? What was that like?)

 

As I think you did a fine job summing up my feelings, so I'll just quote the parts that hit home for me:

 

I think the message for some of us long time HAL cruisers is that we love the crews and people of HAL and some (many ?)can adapt to the changes in the ships...

 

HAL will build ships that will meet the needs of the projections they plan for their itineraries. Of course, world events can change everything in an instant but I speculate HAL wants more longer, more costly per diem cruises than the usual Caribbean runs. They need ships with enough acitivities and venues and comforts to meet expectations and attract those who are willing to pay for more costly cruises. We've watched HAL evolve through our years of cruising and there's no doubt the direction has changed... some for the better and some perhaps not exactly what we would have personally chosen to change.

 

I don't know how to run a cruise line but HAL certainly does. They've done it well for a great many years and I have confidence they have their finger on the pulses and know what they need to do to remain profitable and appealing.

[cruz chic]

As of right now, relative to the economy and market-load, HAL is carrying a over-supply of cabin-space. This can be seen in their discounting of some cruises so-as to fill cabins that would otherwise sail empty at a higher price-point. I don't expect this situation to last forever, however. As the world-wide economy -- not to mention the US economy -- moves into a growth-zone over the next 48 months (sooner or later), I would expect HAL's cabin-load-glut to diminish as its supply/demand dynamic shifts back into higher profitability. This will mean (1) an increase in costs for those of us who love to cruise, (2) hopefully an increase in the quality of service and product, and (3) a move to meet the increased demand with more supply. Hence, new ships.

 

To hit the supply/demand up-tick on the edge, and not lag behind the curve, it will be necessary for HAL to move from the pre-planning to the design and buildings phases sooner rather than later. Announcing a new series sometime this year, laying keel in mid/late 2012, and then launching in late 2013 or early 2014 would not be unreasonable (not based upon prior projects). This means that HAL has a few more years to continue to increase fleet staffing levels so-as to meet the demand when the day comes that they have to staff a MUCH larger ship as the first of several.

I sure would like to see some of these great prices. For the cruise I've got booked for next Feb. with Princess I got a balcony cabin for a few hundred more then HAL was charging for their obscured oceanview. There is something wrong with that. You must be getting some fine prices in the US because I can't duplicate them in Canada....even if I book in USD.

[m steve]

There are so many baby boomers to join them or replace them so there will always be a market for the type of cruising HAL offers. The only things I would like to see on a new ship is a supper club like Carnival offers in place of the boring Pinnacle. And maybe a small intimate show room that offers cabaret type entertainment

[lettienets]

Carnival has two big ships in the 3500 people class, the Dream and the new Magic launched in May in Europe for the summer and next year the Breeze. I have been on Dream for a TA in 2009 am doing a 12 day Med on Magic in Oct. The Carnival "big" is not like RCI big, no central promenade where hundreds converge. No 5500 people and zip lines. The public decks on these new ones on Carnival are actually really nice because they are divided up into sections where you can have some nooks and crannies as well as bigger bars where there is entertainment with bands or karoke, martinis, casino (mostly non smoking on the new ones, very small smoking section) etc. There are wraparound promenade decks on these three new ships as well, on the level with an Ocean Plaza which has places like the computer hub areas (which are scattered around the ship). All decks except those above the Lido, you can walk from stem to stern, not like some of their older ships (where because of the two levels of two dining rooms you had to go up and over). The biggest increase in noticable space is the number of decks with cabins. Public areas are still longer and have more activity points. There is a totally adult pool. There are sections for kids and waterworks if that is your thing and sports activities are on their own. You don't even know these places are around if you aren't wanting to do those activities. I think having minigolf, basketball and stuff is great if that is what you want. But if you like reading in a quiet place you will find one (libraries are terrible though but I hear there is a nice one on the new Magic)

After my cruise in Oct on Magic I can report back on that one.

[kazu]

Carnival has two big ships in the 3500 people class, the Dream and the new Magic launched in May in Europe for the summer and next year the Breeze. I have been on Dream for a TA in 2009 am doing a 12 day Med on Magic in Oct. The Carnival "big" is not like RCI big, no central promenade where hundreds converge. No 5500 people and zip lines. The public decks on these new ones on Carnival are actually really nice because they are divided up into sections where you can have some nooks and crannies as well as bigger bars where there is entertainment with bands or karoke, martinis, casino (mostly non smoking on the new ones, very small smoking section) etc. There are wraparound promenade decks on these three new ships as well, on the level with an Ocean Plaza which has places like the computer hub areas (which are scattered around the ship). All decks except those above the Lido, you can walk from stem to stern, not like some of their older ships (where because of the two levels of two dining rooms you had to go up and over). The biggest increase in noticable space is the number of decks with cabins. Public areas are still longer and have more activity points. There is a totally adult pool. There are sections for kids and waterworks if that is your thing and sports activities are on their own. You don't even know these places are around if you aren't wanting to do those activities. I think having minigolf, basketball and stuff is great if that is what you want. But if you like reading in a quiet place you will find one (libraries are terrible though but I hear there is a nice one on the new Magic)

After my cruise in Oct on Magic I can report back on that one.

 

We will be looking forward to your report. :)

[Pettifogger]

I'm certainly not an expert on what the economic future holds for the cruise industry, but my best guess is that the recovery will not take us all the way back to the boom times any time soon, so planning for gradually increasing occupancy rates and fares for the existing fleet, rather investing in new ships, would be the judicious thing to do for the next year or two.

[RevNeal]

[quote name='lorekauf']I sure would like to see some of these great prices. For the cruise I've got booked for next Feb. with Princess I got a balcony cabin for a few hundred more then HAL was charging for their obscured oceanview. There is something wrong with that. You must be getting some fine prices in the US because I can't duplicate them in Canada....even if I book in USD.[/QUOTE]

Looking back to July 2010 and my "Top of the World" cruise aboard the [I]Prinsendam[/I], the total price I ended up paying for an outside mid-ships cabin FOR TWO was 65% LESS than what I had been quoted for an INSIDE mid-ships cabin for ONE person when I originally booked. The sharp decline in the price was due to the fact that the ship wasn't selling fast enough, so they started cutting the price to move the volume. Granted, the final Price I paid was still expensnsive -- the [I]Prinsendam[/I] commands a very high premium because she's still so popular -- but it ended up being much cheaper than it originally looked like it was going to be ... and that was even true when I added a second person.

Looking to this Fall's 17-day Western-Med and Transatlantic Crossing aboard the [I]Noordam[/I], the price I'm paying for an I category inside cabin with a single supplement is slightly less than $2500. That's about $147 per-day, [I]inclusive of the 150% single supplement.[/I]

I'm not saying that HAL is cheap ... I'm saying that we're paying relatively LESS for many of our cruises these days than we will be paying in just a few years when the economy improves and HAL can effectively move cabins at a high price. Sometimes one has to be very selective to find the cheaper prices. The Alaska Cruises next May are horrendously expensive for a single person. :(

[blueboro]

I know many HAL folks say they would not sail on a ship with 3,000 passengers. We recently sailed on Nieuw Amsterdam and on the Solstice last year. We loved them both. We actually found that the 2,800 pax Solstice seemed less crowded than the 2,100 pax NA...especially in the buffet and pool areas. We did tender on the Solstice and found it was about the same as when we tendered on the NA. However, in Grand Cayman we used lifeboats on the NA and had nice, large tenders on the Solstice. The space ratio on both ships is excellent and that is a determining factor for me.

[arzz]

While on board the Prinsendqm last month what we were told was that

1 - the current belief is that HAL will continue, somehow, to have at least one ship of the Prinsendam class even if it should come to pass that the Prinsendam, at some point in the future, could no longer be refitted to continue to comply with the next set of changes in the SOLAS requirements -- that a replacement for her would be found. (we really hope that to be true)

AND

2 - whether we like it or not, the next HAL new builds will be larger (take a deep breath) -- too large to go through the current Panama Canal locks -- the new locks for the larger vessels are set to open in 2014 and HAL will not roll these ships out until then --

The reasoning presented behind this position is that HAL's presence in Alaska is very important to the line. Alaska is getting crowded and competitive. As such the larger ships are getting priority for the docking space in Alaskan ports and the smaller ships are being forced to less favorable positions in port or even tendering. HAL feels the huge new builds are necessary to maintain their position in Alaska -- yet HAL feels that any ship of theirs must be able to pass through the Panama Canal in order to be repositioned elsewhere when Alaska is out of season.

Please do not shoot the messenger here but that is what we were told.

[cruz chic]

[quote name='RevNeal']Looking back to July 2010 and my "Top of the World" cruise aboard the [I]Prinsendam[/I], the total price I ended up paying for an outside mid-ships cabin FOR TWO was 65% LESS than what I had been quoted for an INSIDE mid-ships cabin for ONE person when I originally booked. The sharp decline in the price was due to the fact that the ship wasn't selling fast enough, so they started cutting the price to move the volume. Granted, the final Price I paid was still expensnsive -- the [I]Prinsendam[/I] commands a very high premium because she's still so popular -- but it ended up being much cheaper than it originally looked like it was going to be ... and that was even true when I added a second person.

Looking to this Fall's 17-day Western-Med and Transatlantic Crossing aboard the [I]Noordam[/I], the price I'm paying for an I category inside cabin with a single supplement is slightly less than $2500. That's about $147 per-day, [I]inclusive of the 150% single supplement.[/I]

I'm not saying that HAL is cheap ... I'm saying that we're paying relatively LESS for many of our cruises these days than we will be paying in just a few years when the economy improves and HAL can effectively move cabins at a high price. Sometimes one has to be very selective to find the cheaper prices. The Alaska Cruises next May are horrendously expensive for a single person. :([/quote]
The prices are MUCH higher this year and for 2012. I have to be at work at certain times of the month so I need to plan my vacation around that. If I could go at any old time it might be different. A friend from the US is going on a cruise in Aug. Just for fun I checked the price on the cruise. She got a price for the 2 of them for $1800 for a balcony. The price I got was $2600 for one for an oceanview. Clearly, you folks are getting better prices then Canadians. This is not the first time I've heard this story. If the are Canadians out there that are getting the same prices I'd love to know how.

[JAMS1]

approx 1000 passengers max, love 600-800 passenger ships

With Aft Cabins for at least 3 decks, love those aft cabins
no bath, but with a slightly larger shower

Non Smoking, its a Dream!

[Zyzygy]

As I don't have to confuse my opinions with mere facts, I believe that the price of oil will determine future ship designs.

If larger ships can operate at lower fuel costs per passenger, then larger ships will be built.

If smaller, faster ships can be made more fuel efficient (perhaps hydrofoils or some other new technology such as a combination of wind/sail/fuel), then smaller ships will be built.

I'm not sure about Windstar's fuel consumption advantages from combining wind and motor power, but if smaller ships can save fuel through wind power and still be dependable in completing their itineraries, they will be built.

I would also like to submit "Hooverdam" as a possible name for the behemoth pictured by the OP.

[iancal]

Nope. We are pricing an early Med cruise on Noodam. The price we have so far is about 35 percent higher than two other alternatives-I think the Star Princess and the Celebrity Equinox. Have not got details on OBC yet from the, but based on initial pricing I am not getting a good price on Noordam.