It's Official: Cunard Re-flags Ships in Bermuda, Launches Weddings at Sea

[brigittetom]

 

As for the earlier comment if it was too expensive, no passengers, no jobs for crew. It's like saying its like saying it's ok for sweatshops to employ poorly paid people because it means at least they have a job.

 

 

Rick, I do not mean that at all. I'm just simply saying...Cunard is the most expensive choice for the Caribbean trip. We, as many others, can decide to cruise other lines because they are so much cheaper. It's not our job to keep Cunard in business. As they decide to enforce more rules that we don't agree with, we will move on to other lines. It's Cunards job to keep their crew well paid...not ours.

[Louise D]

It would be interesting to know how much fares would have to rise to pay a decent wage to all the crew on the basis of equal pay for equal work.

 

Cunard fares were a lot higher prior to the 2000s, such that I believe that in the 1990s a Mauretania round the world would be the cost today of a very high-end balcony or even Princess Grill. In those days, they had a lot of skilled crew on board, including very highly trained patissieres, sweet makers etc. who made the goods from scratch rather than brought in bulk pre-prepared items which they do alot on board today. Presumably people with those types of skills demand a fairly good wage and also presumably Cunard is not prepared to pay it.

 

It used to be said in those days that one around the world fare in the top-end cabin on the QE2 paid all the fuel costs of the voyage, although I think that must be an exaggeration.

 

However, they were charging me around $1500 per day on the last World Cruise so I thought (maybe wrongly) it was enough to pay crew decent wages.

[edgeoftheworld]

If the change of registry achieves the following;

no increase in staffing costs

an additional income from weddings

 

can we therefore take it that there will be no price increases nor cuts in services/quality?

[Whitemarsh]

In those days, they had a lot of skilled crew on board, including very highly trained patissieres, sweet makers etc. who made the goods from scratch rather than brought in bulk pre-prepared items which they do alot on board today. Presumably people with those types of skills demand a fairly good wage and also presumably Cunard is not prepared to pay it.

 

I'm pretty sure they make everything from scratch, even now. I cannot remember where I read or viewed it, but they were making a big deal about it.

[Louise D]

Hi Whitemarsh,

 

I was just looking at a website frequented by some of the former crew of QE2 (better not mention the name) but one was talking about how for $10 the confectioner would make you a bouquet of a dozen red roses all made out of sugar, leaves included. He had leaf molds for over a 100 different plants. He also mentioned that the bakers would make bread like alligators for the midnight buffets. He then said that in those days

it was all done on the ship. But now it is bought frozen. He added that all those specialities have been lost.

 

So I am just referring to what was said by a former crewman of QE2.

[ovccruiser]

It would be interesting to know how much fares would have to rise to pay a decent wage to all the crew on the basis of equal pay for equal work.

 

I know a group of 4* hotel in the UK charge around £150.00 per person per day dinner bed and breakfast. Now, they have no engines to run to move their clients from port to port, and certainly no where near the level of staff needed to run a cruise ship. My price guess for lowish grade cabin would be in the order of £200 to £250 per person per day. I am not up to 5* hotel ratings so cannot compare a 5* price. The reason for the move could also be to maintain their pricing structure. If they paid EU rates to their staff, tips would probably dissappear or would need to be incorporated into the cruise price

[Leucothea]

I agree they were between a rock and a hard place - all the more reason to come out fighting - addressing the issue head on - explain that Bermuda has been British much longer than there's been a Cunard (or a USA or UK, for that matter).....

 

 

But it's an issue of Symbolism; very important.

[guernseyguy]

But it's an issue of Symbolism; very important.

 

Yes - all the more reason why, if the business case is strong, address the perceived negatives - don't hide behind 'our guests (sic) are too thick to work out HOW we can now offer Weddings at Sea"

[transatlantic fan]

I honestly think that Mr Shanks should resign as last week on Television he stated THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN TILL SPRING 2012 his words not mine.

[YachtieRick]

It would be interesting to know how much fares would have to rise to pay a decent wage to all the crew on the basis of equal pay for equal work.

 

Cunard fares were a lot higher prior to the 2000s, such that I believe that in the 1990s a Mauretania round the world would be the cost today of a very high-end balcony or even Princess Grill. In those days, they had a lot of skilled crew on board, including very highly trained patissieres, sweet makers etc. who made the goods from scratch rather than brought in bulk pre-prepared items which they do alot on board today. Presumably people with those types of skills demand a fairly good wage and also presumably Cunard is not prepared to pay it.

 

It used to be said in those days that one around the world fare in the top-end cabin on the QE2 paid all the fuel costs of the voyage, although I think that must be an exaggeration.

 

However, they were charging me around $1500 per day on the last World Cruise so I thought (maybe wrongly) it was enough to pay crew decent wages.

 

 

The UK minimum wage is around $10.00 an hour. So your basic crew (Laundry, Waiters etc) should be on $3000.00 basic salary a month for the 10 hours a day they are contracted for (normally work 2-6 hours overtime per day bear in mind). Most are on anything from $300-$900 a month basic.

If all crew were on the minimum wage, the monthly salary bill for QM2 would be $3.5m.

The scary thing is that the Junior Officers aren't on much more then the minimum wage.

 

So as you can see, a ship being British registered has a bit impact. Probably the same reason why you don't see many US registered cruise ships.

[Norfolk Brit]

In addition to the minimum wage, presumably Cunard could also have fallen foul of the European Time Directive?

 

Mary

[zider]

It will be interesting to see what AIDA cruise line will do for they are German are part of Carnival & are Flagged in Italy! So the E.U. rules also applies to them as well.

[YachtieRick]

In addition to the minimum wage, presumably Cunard could also have fallen foul of the European Time Directive?

 

Mary

 

The UK law states the working time limits as 48 hours per week, and whilst the crew onboard are contracted for 70 hours per week basic (10 hours per day) the law has an exemption for "sea transport worker, a mobile worker in inland waterways or a lake transport worker on board sea going fishing vessels"

 

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/WorkingHoursAndTimeOff/DG_10029426

[Norfolk Brit]

the law has an exemption for "sea transport worker, a mobile worker in inland waterways or a lake transport worker on board sea going fishing vessels"

 

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/WorkingHoursAndTimeOff/DG_10029426

 

Many thanks for that; most interesting. Sorry, at the time I posted, I didn't have time to look at the Directive in detail.

 

Mary:)

[eroller]

It would be interesting to know how much fares would have to rise to pay a decent wage to all the crew on the basis of equal pay for equal work.

 

 

 

 

While not quite apples to apples, a good comparison would be to look at operating expenses of PRIDE OF AMERICA, the only large US flagged cruise ship in the world. She is operated by NCL and cruises around the Hawaiian Islands.

 

Because she is US Flagged, she must adhere to all US laws regarding labor as well as US Coast Guard regulations which arguably may be the most stringent in the world. She is also subject to paying US taxes.

 

The Captain of PRIDE OF AMERICA is quote as saying that operating expenses of POA are equivalent to four of NCL's foreign flagged ships. Yes, FOUR!

 

With POA, NCL has to pay Federal and State income tax, as well as Social Security and contribute to Medicare. In addition they have to follow US labor laws which include a minimum wage and work rules such as overtime. As you know, almost all crew members work more than a 40 hour work week, and on PRIDE OF AMERICA overtime is very common. NCL must also deal with a US work union, which most POA crew members are part of.

 

All this being said, NCL continues to operate POA as a US flagged ship and my understanding is she does quite well these days. When NCL had three ships in Hawaii it almost broke them, so that was obviously too much. Take a look at fares for POA. They are more expensive than the foreign flagged ships, but certainly not outrages. Of course POA has the benefit of it's foreign flagged sisters no doubt subsidizing much of the extra expense of operating the Hawaii cruises, but even so NCL continues to find value in operating Hawaii cruises and with the POA remaining US flagged. Of course Cunard doesn't have the benefit of a large foreign flag fleet to subsidize operations of a UK flag, but no doubt Carnival Corp. does. Unfortunately I have to surmise that no other Carnival Corp. brand is willing to subsidize Cunard!

 

My understanding is that Carnival Corp. brands are fiercely competitive with each other, each trying desperately to be the most profitable within the Corporation and no doubt the light in MA's eyes! I think the only thing MA responds to these days is $$$. ;-)

 

Ernie

[guernseyguy]

I think the only thing MA responds to these days is $$$. ;-)

 

Ernie

 

Good! That's his job. Without that there would be no QM2.

 

On the other hand, those entrusted with the stewardship of Cunard should (in my view, if they wish to continue to market on 'heritage') think about $$$ AND Cunard heritage. $$$ is the goal. 'Heritage' was a key strategy....not so sure any more...

 

And Ernie - yes, I am doing a 'Winter Crossing' - but not on Cunard....

[Underwatr]

All this being said, NCL continues to operate POA as a US flagged ship and my understanding is she does quite well these days. When NCL had three ships in Hawaii it almost broke them, so that was obviously too much. Take a look at fares for POA. They are more expensive than the foreign flagged ships, but certainly not outrages. Of course POA has the benefit of it's foreign flagged sisters no doubt subsidizing much of the extra expense of operating the Hawaii cruises, but even so NCL continues to find value in operating Hawaii cruises and with the POA remaining US flagged. Of course Cunard doesn't have the benefit of a large foreign flag fleet to subsidize operations of a UK flag, but no doubt Carnival Corp. does. Unfortunately I have to surmise that no other Carnival Corp. brand is willing to subsidize Cunard!

The key advantage would seem to be the ability to run a Hawaii cruise of about 1 week duration, as it takes over a week to move to a foreign port and back (example - 4 days in each direction from LA to Hawaii).

[eroller]

Good! That's his job. Without that there would be no QM2.

 

 

 

And Ernie - yes, I am doing a 'Winter Crossing' - but not on Cunard....

 

 

 

Part of his job, absolutely. Unfortunately it seems profits are the only thing Carnival Corp. responds to or is concerned about. Personally I have a belief that successful long term, viable, and profitable companies have the ability to think beyond the next quarter's profit statement. Sometimes I question this about Carnival far more so than other companies I do business with.

 

Yes without Carnival there would be no QM2. While I love QM2 the world would not come to an end without her, and frankly I couldn't care less what happens to QE or QV. Nice ships, but production line and nothing special. Having one great ship in a massive fleet of mediocre ships seems a high price to pay.

 

Ernie

[edgeoftheworld]

The UK minimum wage is around $10.00 an hour. So your basic crew (Laundry, Waiters etc) should be on $3000.00 basic salary a month for the 10 hours a day they are contracted for (normally work 2-6 hours overtime per day bear in mind). Most are on anything from $300-$900 a month basic.

If all crew were on the minimum wage, the monthly salary bill for QM2 would be $3.5m.

The scary thing is that the Junior Officers aren't on much more then the minimum wage.

 

So as you can see, a ship being British registered has a bit impact. Probably the same reason why you don't see many US registered cruise ships.

 

UK NMW currently equals ~$9.70

 

however, there is an accommodation offset available, which is worth ~1hours pay. so for 10hours work an employer would pay for 9hours.

 

currently meal provision cant be offset, but did Cunard/Carnival, & any other cruise lines, even try & negotiate on this?

 

 

as for the basic pay that the crew are on, what is the additional amount paid to them from the 'service charge' which dosnt show in the employers pay figures?

[eroller]

The key advantage would seem to be the ability to run a Hawaii cruise of about 1 week duration, as it takes over a week to move to a foreign port and back (example - 4 days in each direction from LA to Hawaii).

 

 

Yes absolutely an advantage, and for now at least one that NCL continues to support. As I mentioned they do have the advantage of a large foreign flagged fleet that helps subsidize the additional cost of the Hawaii operation.

 

So bringing this back to Cunard, what would the advantage be of keeping the ships flagged in the UK? For one Cunard would hold true to it's marketing of offering a traditional British experience on what one would assume are on British flagged ships. Of course we all know most of that marketing is perception. After all the ships are built in Italy and France, and owned by a parent company based in Miami headed by an American. Soon even the UK registry will be history, making that perception created by marketing even more important.

 

Personally I don't think there is enough of an advantage to keep Cunard ships under a UK registry. I fully understand the financial implications of doing so and frankly it would place Cunard at a competitive disadvantage. While I'm disappointed by the decision, I certainly understand it. As I've mentioned before, my beef is the way Cunard has handled this entire debacle. They have been deceptive and insulting to their customer base, showing them no respect what so ever. I've lost respect for Cunard over this, and even worse I no longer trust their management team or feel valued as one of their customers.

 

Ernie

[Cosmic Rays]

We disembarked Queen Elizabeth on Sunday morning..................

 

We overheard Capn. Wells announcing to the Grills passengers at a private cocktail party for them in the Queens Room on Friday night the news of the changes............. I was amazed at the jeers and boos to which the Captain said it was for £££$$$ reasons.

 

The following morning all the lifebelts had been repainted HAMILTON!!! Thank goodness I had taken a photograph of a lifebelt a few days earlier showing SOUTHAMPTON!!!

 

Sad I'm afraid......................

[moniquet]

It was on ITV news this evening and the real reason was stated as being the Equality law by the Reporter. Cunard should now tone down it's hype when advertising it's Britishness as it could find itself breaking the UK. Trades descriptions Act or fall foul of the Advertising standards authority.

[Underwatr]

What they may do is play up the Cunard history without explicitly saying anything about the current status one way or the other. Maybe even show photos of the ensign flying, which isn't legally deceptive.

[Leucothea]

It was on ITV news this evening and the real reason was stated as being the Equality law by the Reporter. Cunard should now tone down it's hype when advertising it's Britishness as it could find itself breaking the UK. Trades descriptions Act or fall foul of the Advertising standards authority.

 

It is going to feel odd being on the new Bermudan QM2. Nothing against Bermuda; I have always enjoyed all cultures, and socializing with people of all cultures. But I also like to keep my own. There hasn't been a British Empire in a long, long time, so there's no danger of that. In a multi-cultural world, all cultures and their histories should be celebrated, including British culture and history. Cunard was a part of British history, and to brush it off is prejudicial (at least on a subliminal level) I feel.

[Salacia]

Morally, I am having difficulty accepting this industry is based upon discrimination in payment of wages to crew members. There should be the same wages for all who perform the same type of work. These same type of arguments were used in many countries of the world to deny equal wages to women and force women back into the home after the troops came back from WW2.

 

All of us who have been on Cunard know that some of these non-European crew have the heavy burden of supporting many extended family members back home.

 

If it is indeed true these practices are entrenched in Cunard and other shipping lines then I am personally taking a stand and I am not going to travel with any such shipping lines with these practices anymore. Presumably it means that I have to avoid lines which are flagged in Bermuda, the Bahamas, Panama, Monrovia etc.

 

It may be that there will not be any choices left for cruising, but so be it. There are other holiday options.

 

Hear Hear.