Looking for a Good Moscow-St. Petersburg Cruise

[King of Cool]

Coral

 

“I think cruisers tend to get in some rutt - where they think they want to visit somewhere and then immediately start to ponder "can I cruise there" and IMO…”

 

Please do not stereotype cruisers.

 

We have:

 

* Gazed at the stars from horizon to horizon amongst the red gums on the banks of the Darling River back o’Bourke and guzzled beer with Irish girls at the Louth Races;

* Marvelled at Nature's splendour and human endeavour as we struggled for breath on the train trip from Cusco to Machu Picchu;

* Driven around SE Iceland in the driving rain before soothing our bodies in the warmth of the Blue Lagoon;

* Trembled with fear in a taxi up the Khyber Pass from Peshawar to Dara as gun makers tested their weapons over our heads;

* Climbed the Cuillins on the Isle of Skye and Haystacks in the Lake District and Rob Roy's Glacier in New Zealand and Kim's Lookout on Lord Howe Island and played golf at 7000 ft at Gulmarg in Kashmir;

* Walked along Hadrian's Wall and had fish and chips at "the best fish and chip shop" in England at Whitby;

* Camped in the freezing cold of the Rocky Mountains and licked ice cream at the Calgary Stampede;

* Witnessed the gathering of the tribes at Mount Hagen in New Guinea and munched hamburgers on 76th St New York.

* Indulged ourselves in wonderful wines and food in Provence and wept at the multitudes of white crosses at Omaha beach in Normandy.

 

And done a thousand other things.

 

And we also love cruising and I am sure that many, many other cruisers who have done much, much more also love cruising.

 

And if we are in some sort of rut please dig us a trench.

 

PS. This is a CRUISE forum. The question was “Looking for a Good Moscow-St. Petersburg Cruise”.

 

Coral, you are entitled to your opinion and what you say about SPB – Moscow is quite possibly correct. But don’t you think the people who are considering travel by land will find much better information on Trip Advisor and other travel sites than here and those that use this site are more interested in questions relating to travel by boat?

 

до свидания

[Coral]

Please do not stereotype cruisers.

 

 

The OP asked if there is European quality river boat cruising in Russia and the fact is there isn't - not even close. Some referred to their "best ship in Russia" the equivalent of Motel 6. There has been a lot of frustration about Russian River cruising the past several years on this board and several others for various reasons (quality of boat, quality of food, time spent in ports, etc...). This all relates to the question the OP was asking. I doubt the OP who wants a European type river boat cruise would put up with Motel 6 accommodations or having to search for toilet paper daily which many have experienced in Russia on the ships.

 

I am a cruiser but after experiencing this type of cruise and speaking with several others - this is not the best way to see Russia. Especially those who have experienced both to know the difference.

 

You gave the example of camping in Canadian Rockies and going to the Calgary Stampede. If someone really wanted to cruise there (which isn't possible but an extension of a land trip after a cruise would be) - I am sure you would strongly recommend land travel there. You probably would not recommend people take the train from Vancouver to Banff (Calgary) - (in order to see Banff or Calgary) and get off there and catch a flight back and not see the area but technically they could say they have been there.

 

Yes - I do think that sometimes cruisers do need to look outside of the box and realize that while cruising does have some benefits - some places are best viewing outside of a ship (Russia is one of them). Italy is a great example. I know a ton of people who have said they wanted to see Italy and go on a cruise. After spending one day in Rome, one day in Florence and one day in Venice - they really have not seen Italy and they come back spending thousands and barely saw anything in these cities. They wish they had done the land trip to begin with and spent 4 plus days in each of the areas. I have heard this a ton. Unfortunately many don't make it back. It is sad when you speak with cruisers who spend one day in Rome and spend more time in a bus then at the sites and really have no clue what they saw because they don't have any quality time at any particular place there and everything runs together.

 

The people on my Russian river trip had no clue what they were missing. It is pretty sad as they will never return and missed some of the best places to see in Russia. They also had no idea they were only going to spend 1.5 days in Moscow based on misleading literature. Everyone I spoke to on my trip was clueless and wished they had done the trip otherwise. There are several reports of people coming back this summer saying "I wish I had known" and they would have booked the trip differently if they had known.

 

Getting back to what the OP asked for: Perhaps up to the standard of European river cruise ships? Or is that just too much to ask for?

Yes - unfortunately that is too much to ask in Russia. They are probably best to find that out before they spend $10K on a cruise there.

[CaribbeanIsland]

I had a conversation with a travel agent. The advice was actually do a land based tour instead.

 

The dock for the cruise ships are over an hour from the city center. So it's a lot of time spend on buses each day.

 

That's not to mention the condition of the ship's lodging when compare with hotels.

 

Your travel agent is correct.

 

I agree with Coral's comments about Russia 100%.

[4774Papa]

"The people on my Russian river trip had no clue what they were missing. It is pretty sad as they will never return and missed some of the best places to see in Russia."

 

Coral, please tell us what are the best places to see in Russia.

[maryann ns]

Well this is an excellent, lively debate!

 

We are primarily land tourists, but I did love our cruises, and was thinking of a river cruise in Russia. Thanks to many of you for setting me straight. A Baltic cruise on Azamara may move up on my bucket list to compete with a land tour.

 

Land tours may take more planning, but they are worth it.

[rogerdawhip]

I have been on two Russian river cruises from Moscow to St Petersburg and one Russian land tour. For me, the river cruises were so much better than the land tour. Leisurely traveling by river and not having to check in and out of hotels is the way to go. The only problem is the company I cruised with (GT Cruises) is no longer in business. The ships were on the Motel 6 scale but we had 4 days in both Moscow and St Petersburg with stops in Uglich, Krostroma, Yaroslavl, Goritsy, Kizhi and Mandrogal. I cannot find a current cruise line that has a similar itinerary. Most to not include Krostorma, Yaraslavl, and Mandrogal. As many have said, Russian river cruises are not for everyone but for me they were great.

[4774Papa]

I have been on two Russian river cruises from Moscow to St Petersburg and one Russian land tour. For me, the river cruises were so much better than the land tour. Leisurely traveling by river and not having to check in and out of hotels is the way to go. The only problem is the company I cruised with (GT Cruises) is no longer in business. The ships were on the Motel 6 scale but we had 4 days in both Moscow and St Petersburg with stops in Uglich, Krostroma, Yaroslavl, Goritsy, Kizhi and Mandrogal. I cannot find a current cruise line that has a similar itinerary. Most to not include Krostorma, Yaraslavl, and Mandrogal. As many have said, Russian river cruises are not for everyone but for me they were great.

Vantage has three days in Moscow and four in STP with stops in Uglich, Yaroslavl, Goritsy, Kizhi and Mandroga.

[shoshona2]

Hi again 4774Papa,

 

After taking AMA's Katarina last September, I have to agree that your river boat cruise was so much better than our experience. As Coral has stated, AMA only gave us one and one-half days in Moscow and a tour of the gardens of Peterof and Monplaisir in St. Petersburg. We had toured the Palace in Peterof previously, but the other people on our tour did NOT realize what they missed by not seeing Peterof Palace. AMA had the nerve to charge to go into Catherine's Palace. That day there were no tours which were included, except they threw in the Ballet at the Hermitage at night to make something free that day. The food was awful -- I lost weight which is something that has NEVER happened in over 40 cruises. I ate my own Oats 'N Honey bars when I got hungry or the cheese and crackers that was sparingly placed on a back buffet during dinner. The wine was flowing like water at dinner which I guessed was to keep everyone happy. The diesel smells in the room they used for entertaining and meetings with the guests was unbearable. The sewerage smells weren't so great either. For a ship which was supposed to be completely redone and luxurious, it was certainly a BIG disappointment. We NEVER heard back from AMA. They lost many customers from our sailing.

 

Sheila

[King of Cool]

Coral

 

If someone really wanted to cruise there (which isn't possible but an extension of a land trip after a cruise would be) - I am sure you would strongly recommend land travel there….Everyone I spoke to on my trip was clueless and wished they had done the trip otherwise.

Coral, I think you missed my point. I course I would recommend land travel to the Rockies. My point is that you can successfully do both cruising AND land tours and you are not in a rut if you choose a cruise - as pointed out by maryann ns and rogerdawhip.

 

One thing this thread HAS done is considerably lower my expectations of the Russian River cruise - after receiving so many good reports both from reviews on this site and by word of mouth so I look forward with interest to which I believe was the most correct and promise to report back on our findings next year.

 

But as I said before all travellers know that there is give and take and the more you put into any travel experience the more you get out of it. And there is also an old adage when you are in a rut - stop digging and that is what I think I will do.

[franski]

Well - we are booked with Uniworld next May - and are truly looking forward to it.

 

On our 1st river cruise (also with Uniworld) the CD commented on cruising in Russia. He was clear in his explanation that Russia would not be the level of luxury found on river boats in Europe - but was a unique experience. That is what we are looking for.

 

Perhaps my expectations are not as high as some, but I am looking for a clean cabin, private bathroom and interesting travelling companions. I understand that the menu includes lots of beets, potatoes and cabbage - so am glad that the ship is non-smoking!!! Open flames could be a risk in such a gas-rich environment...:D

 

We discussed a Baltic cruise as we are travelling with friends, but could not easily get to Moscow in the time frame we would be docked in Russia. We get 2+ days in Moscow - including one entire "free" day - so anticipate that we will be able to see some of the sites not included in our city tour.

 

I will post after I return. Will I be missing "something" by doing a river cruise instead of a land tour? Most likely - but this is still the way I want to travel.

 

Fran

[cruzingrama]

Fran

We went on the Uniworld trip last June (I think I remember your name from that thread)

I believe you have realistic expectations and won't be disappointed. Our cabin had a full balcony, and as we were traveling with friends, from Sarnia, ONT spent a lot of time on them each day watching the river go by. Actually it was a good excuse to have a glass of wine which we had brought on board~!

We had a clean room, the maid didn't speak English, but she did a great job anyway.

Our meals were decent, and we weren't anticipating American food, and got to try some delicious local fare. I happen to like beets, potatoes, and cabbage!

I know you will have a great time!

 

Lynette

tlglotz @ sbcglobal. net

[shoshona2]

Hi Fran and Lynette,

 

I'm sure Fran will have a good time on Uniworld with their new ship to Russia. I know that Ron Pope said it was good, except for his wife getting ill with ecoli which had hit Europe last June. Uniworld put them up in a 5 star hotel in Moscow since the ship wasn't ready. I believe it was the Ritz Carlton. I only wish that our ship had beets, potatoes and cabbage and I would have been a happy camper. It was really inedible and I was not expecting American food. If there wasn't the cheese plate offered on the back table, I would have only eaten my oak and honey breakfast bars for 12 days for dinner. I really needed to lose some weight and I did. Remember, AMA promised a luxurious cruise and we believed them. By the time the reviews came out, we couldn't cancel or we would have lost $12,000. We never got a chance to enjoy our balcony except to put the umbrellas out there to dry. But, we loved our experience with the young Russian people who worked on the ship. Most of them were in College and were leaving the ship in September to return to school. We also loved our interaction on the Metro with the people who gave us their seats when they heard us speaking Enlish. We also loved our experience having brunch at a Russian home. It was also a good thing that it was our 3rd time in St. Petersburg. We were promised two full days in Moscow and when the docs came we were to arrive in Moscow at 1:00 P.M. on day 1. Thus, we were rushed like crazy to get in as much as we could see in a day and one half.

 

Sheila

[SabreSailor]

I guess I really opened Pandora's Box with this thread - but I thank all of you for your candor!

 

On our overnight in the early 2000s on the Maasdam in St. Petersburg, we did FIVE excursions from the ship: a city tour with St. Peter and Paul's, Peterhof, a folkloric evening at the St. P. Music Hall, Catherine's Palace, and lastly the Hermitage (in which four hours spent is like drinking from a fire hose). But we got a very good feel - again, a sampler of St. P. and it sounds like we saw more than you'd see on a river cruise. I don't mind beets, potatoes, and cabbage, but I've heard that many of the entrees were either not prepared well, of poor quality, or just "inedible" as I've heard here from some.

 

Again, thanks for your input - as much as I would like to see more of Russia, I think we might wait for a few years and see what develops....

[4774Papa]

I guess I really opened Pandora's Box with this thread - but I thank all of you for your candor!

 

On our overnight in the early 2000s on the Maasdam in St. Petersburg, we did FIVE excursions from the ship: a city tour with St. Peter and Paul's, Peterhof, a folkloric evening at the St. P. Music Hall, Catherine's Palace, and lastly the Hermitage (in which four hours spent is like drinking from a fire hose). But we got a very good feel - again, a sampler of St. P. and it sounds like we saw more than you'd see on a river cruise. I don't mind beets, potatoes, and cabbage, but I've heard that many of the entrees were either not prepared well, of poor quality, or just "inedible" as I've heard here from some.

 

Again, thanks for your input - as much as I would like to see more of Russia, I think we might wait for a few years and see what develops....

On our Vantage river cruise, we stayed in a great hotel one mile from the Hermitage and saw much more than you listed above. In addition to what you listed, we went to the Ballet (Swan Lake), took a canal boat cruise, saw Pavlosk and Church of Spilled Blood.

[King of Cool]

On our Vantage river cruise, we stayed in a great hotel one mile from the Hermitage and saw much more than you listed above. 4774Papa

 

I guess you can get a sparrow with a bow and arrow too Papa?

 

Tick, tick tick.

 

If you were to spend three minutes by each exhibit in the Hermitage, it would take you three years to see them all:

 

http://www.travelallrussia.com/tours-to-moscow/treasures-of-two-capitals-moscow-and-st-petersburg3-tour40.html

 

Wow a lot of ticks there!

 

Don’t ask me how many places we saw in Vienna or Budapest on our River Cruise last year – most have faded from memory. On the whole cruise we probably saw hundreds of buildings and were given thousands of facts but don’t ask me to quote any names or dates.

 

But what I do remember is the overall experience and some of the people who we were privileged to meet and get to know and the wonderful professional crew on the boat and the excellent guides and how everything went like clockwork.

 

And it was a just a few experiences that stood out like standing underneath the balcony where Hitler made his speech in Linz and the horrific House of Terror in Budapest. And walking around the huge rally grounds in Nuremburg and sitting drinking champagne on the top deck as the brilliant scenery of the Rhine Gorge floated past. And struggling up some of the hills on the 30 km bike ride and then stopping with the whole group at a beer garden and feeling part of a team and being disgusted when a lady in the party had the contents of her bag snatched in some German city or other and how embarrassed the local guide was.

 

I guess what I am trying to say in this debate on one cruise v another or cruising v land is some people don’t gauge their holiday by how many places they ticked off. Maybe you don’t either.

 

I should have thought of this before with Coral but if the Russian River Cruises are below par compared with other river tours then surely the same applies to land tours. In other words EVERYTHING in Russia is possibly below par to what western travellers are used to? - maybe not. Anyhow, we have already lowered our expectations of a Russian River Cruise and will make allowances for how their country is progressing in this new found democratic world.

But I am sure that when we return we will not judge our tour on how many exhibits we saw at the Hermitage or whether we did a canal boat ride (the canal boat ride in Amsterdam was most forgettable) or even the Church of Spilled Blood. We will judge it from the overall experience. I do not know how that will turn out but I do know that it will not be based on quantity.

 

I’m glad you enjoyed the Vantage Tour – sounds very well organised.

[at_nyc]

But what I do remember is the overall experience and some of the people who we were privileged to meet and get to know and the wonderful professional crew on the boat and the excellent guides and how everything went like clockwork.

 

I guess what I am trying to say in this debate on one cruise v another or cruising v land is some people don’t gauge their holiday by how many places they ticked off. Maybe you don’t either. .

There's a difference between "ticking places off" vs missing an important sight! Will you go to India and right by Agra but not see the Taj Mahal? Then say it's a good tour of India because you've met some interesting American in the trip? :rolleyes:

 

What about a "best tour" of the corn field of Indianna, because the author met the love of life on the bus and got married as a result? And everyone else should consider tour of Indiana?

 

You've completely missed the point Carol was making, which is some tours get to see more and/or more in depth, while others skimp the surface and/or miss important and iconic sights. While not every one cares about more or in depth and those are happy to take a shorter tour for less. But to say seeing less is somehow a better tour is... ignorant.

[franski]

King of Cool... I must say that I do agree with your comment about the canal cruise in Amsterdam being "most forgettable"... Been there, done that - won't bother again if we end up in Amsterdam again. :D

 

I have heard, however, that canal cruise in St. P. is really interesting - and worth the extra cost. We are hoping to do that when we visit. What time of year are you going? We are leaving home on May 29th - and will post when I return --> so can offer an opinion (for what it is worth...)

 

at_nyc - how does one decide what is an "important sight"? Perhaps people going to India are going for other reasons - and really do not care if they see the Taj Mahal. The same applies IMHO in Russia.

 

There is so much to see, that you need to identify your "must see" items, and realize that you won't see everything. I enjoy the overall experience - and if I am able to check off some "important" sights along the way - that is good. But - if I gauged the trip on my ability to see "places" then I think I would feel a sense of disappointment when I returned.

 

Not everyone wants in-depth --> that has become obvious as you read postings here. I personally like it when a guide gives lots of detail - but many find it boring. This is no different than trying to please everyone who wants to visit Russia. Not everyone would enjoy a river cruise - but many might.

 

There are some here that have posted their discouraging thoughts on river cruises in Russia. But - not everyone wants a land cruise. The OP asked for opinions on a good Moscow to St. Petersburg cruise. It would be really a shame if all of the negative posts turned her off the process - instead of offering options or opinions that she might use to decide if she wants to travel in this way, and/or how to decide on a cruise line.

 

Fran

[Coral]

 

Is there a cruise line/ship that makes this trip that has a decent size cabin (say 175 sq ft with a fixed bed, a decent size head, good sanitary conditions, and good food? Perhaps up to the standard of European river cruise ships? Or is that just too much to ask for?

 

The answer to the OP question is still "NO". No one has been able to come up with a ship that compares to the European cruise ship standards. They just don't compare.

 

I should have thought of this before with Coral but if the Russian River Cruises are below par compared with other river tours then surely the same applies to land tours. In other words EVERYTHING in Russia is possibly below par to what western travellers are used to? - maybe not. Anyhow, we have already lowered our expectations of a Russian River Cruise and will make allowances for how their country is progressing in this new found democratic world.

 

The answer to this is "no". The hotels are very nice in Russia. They also have mid-range and low range hotels but they also have luxury hotels in Russia. The food I ate outside of the boat was quite good in Russia. It is funny - everyone on our boat accepted the fact that "food in Russia is bad" when in fact, food is Russia can be quite good. On my first trip, I never once compared about the food we ate on our land trip. When I ate off the ship this last time, the food was fabulous. There is a lot of money in Russia now (especially Moscow and St. Petersburg) and a lot of high end places to eat. I went into a gourmet grocery store in Moscow that blows away any grocery store I have been to in my town (granted I don't live in a large town).

 

 

You've completely missed the point Carol was making, which is some tours get to see more and/or more in depth, while others skimp the surface and/or miss important and iconic sights. While not every one cares about more or in depth and those are happy to take a shorter tour for less. But to say seeing less is somehow a better tour is... ignorant.

 

Thanks!

[Coral]

On our Vantage river cruise, we stayed in a great hotel one mile from the Hermitage and saw much more than you listed above. In addition to what you listed, we went to the Ballet (Swan Lake), took a canal boat cruise, saw Pavlosk and Church of Spilled Blood.

 

"The people on my Russian river trip had no clue what they were missing. It is pretty sad as they will never return and missed some of the best places to see in Russia."

 

Coral, please tell us what are the best places to see in Russia.

 

Hi,

 

Your trip was unique in that you did a land portion on your cruise in Moscow and St. Petersburg. Vantage has not always done hotels - I think this year was their first year. In the past GCT did it (for a year or two) and there were many years where no one did hotels and boats were the only choice. You miss a lot when you are spending 4 plus hours per day commuting back and fourth. You definitely benefited from staying in a great location. No doubt about it.

 

Unfortunately right now, I don't have the time to post comparisons where we missed out on AMA vs my land trip (I had more time over Christmas break). A lot of it was drive by sights (not even getting out of the bus to take a picture) or if we did get out, we couldn't actually go in the building to see inside the building. Other things were missing large portions of places such as when I saw at Peter and Paul Fortress missed what I had previously seen at the site, same with Peterhof, Victory Park, etc... I have posted numerous things that I saw on my land trip that we missed on the river boat but right now I don't have time to go through and repost or refind my comments. If (when) I do have time, I will try to find my comparisons.

 

While I think your trip definitely benefited from hotels, having sailed on the Tolstoy - I don't think it would fit the qualifications for what the OP was asking (look back to the OP where he asked for 175 square foot cabin with real beds). I do have to say the Tolstoy was a very clean ship and if you read my original review of the Tolstoy - I did not complain about the ship itself (the food, another story and it is possible you had entirely different food company, etc... on your sailing as you indicated your food was quite good).

 

Sorry I can't fully answer your question right now as my time is much restricted at the moment.

[Coral]

I've read several threads of cruises on this itinerary that complain uniformly about tiny cabin size, tiny bathrooms, poor quality food, ships in need of refurbishing, less-than-sanitary conditions, etc.

 

Is there a cruise line/ship that makes this trip that has a decent size cabin (say 175 sq ft with a fixed bed, a decent size head, good sanitary conditions, and good food? Perhaps up to the standard of European river cruise ships? Or is that just too much to ask for?

 

King of Cool

There are some here that have posted their discouraging thoughts on river cruises in Russia. But - not everyone wants a land cruise. The OP asked for opinions on a good Moscow to St. Petersburg cruise. It would be really a shame if all of the negative posts turned her off the process - instead of offering options or opinions that she might use to decide if she wants to travel in this way, and/or how to decide on a cruise line.

 

Fran

 

The OP asked if there was similar Russian River boat trips in Russia similar to Europe? The answer is still no. The closest would be Pappas which stated in hotels for most of the cruise. The cruise portion of his trip (Tolstoy) does not meet the cabin wishes the OP asked for - I know this first hand as I have been on this ship.

 

Franski - from what I understand - you have yet to go to Russia. It would be wrong to mislead the OP into saying there is when that is what they are looking for. There are a lot of people who sailed on AMA (Sheila and others) who thought they were getting something similar and paid a good amount of money for their trip and felt they were greatly mislead and came back with a negative experience of the ship.

 

I have received over a dozen emails personally from people this year who wished they had taken my advice and felt they were cheated on their Russian River cruise and wished they had listened to my advice and did a land trip. These people were specifically AMA and Viking individuals (I do think Viking does better with food compared to AMA). They felt this was a once in a lifetime trip to Russia and felt they missed so much on their trip due to taking a river cruise (and all the negatives associated with it such as inferior tours, long commutes into town, drive bys for photo opportunities, mislead brochures, etc...)

 

I (and these other people) wished that there had been more accurate information on Russian River cruises before I spent $$$$. Just for the record, my Russian River cruise was the most expensive per person I have ever paid for a cruise (thankfully I didn't have the option to spring for a balcony and paid extra for that). It is sad when my "inexpensive" high school trip there was far superior in every way (we saw more, we had better accommodations, we had better food and it cost less even comparing the years in between).

[webfoot]

Has anyone taken the Grand Circle Russian trip? One of my friends has booked this and I told her I'd see if anyone on the board has taken that trip!

 

Thanks! Happy New Year!

[paul929207]

Has anyone taken the Grand Circle Russian trip? One of my friends has booked this and I told her I'd see if anyone on the board has taken that trip!

 

Thanks! Happy New Year!

We did in September, 2010 and had a wonderful time. We had three days plus in both Moscow and St. Petersburg with six days sailing in between.

[shoshona2]

Hi Coral,

 

Don't be discouraged by some remarks by other people. I fully agree with everything you have said on this board!!! We were completely mislead by the brochure and our calls to AMA. By the time we realized what we had bought, it was too late to cancel. There were many, many "drive bys" and people missed seeing so much. When one spends the kind of money we and our friends did to see the sights, we expect to visit the sights not drive by. One really needs three or four days in Moscow and four or five days in St. Petersburg. Thank goodness, we had been to St. Petersburg before and filled in with what we missed. If it had it to do all over again, I would fly to each of the two cities and hire a private guide. We used Red October when we were on a ship many years ago and had a wonderful two days in St. Petersburg.

 

Happy New Year to you and your family.

 

Sheila

[King of Cool]

at_ nyc There's a difference between "ticking places off" vs missing an important sight! Will you go to India and right by Agra but not see the Taj Mahal? Then say it's a good tour of India because you've met some interesting American in the trip?

 

What about a "best tour" of the corn field of Indianna, because the author met the love of life on the bus and got married as a result? And everyone else should consider tour of Indiana?

 

You've completely missed the point Carol was making, which is some tours get to see more and/or more in depth, while others skimp the surface and/or miss important and iconic sights. While not every one cares about more or in depth and those are happy to take a shorter tour for less. But to say seeing less is somehow a better tour is... ignorant.

 

Now at_nyc There are a few strawman arguments and cherry picking of text being put up here misrepresenting my thoughts.

 

Please show me where I said "seeing less is somehow a better tour".

 

I also said “And it was a just a few experiences that stood out like standing underneath the balcony where Hitler made his speech in Linz and the horrific House of Terror in Budapest. And walking around the huge rally grounds in Nuremburg and sitting drinking champagne on the top deck as the brilliant scenery of the Rhine Gorge floated past.”

 

When I went to Agra and I can assure you that when I was there I waited until late at night to also see it by moonlight rather than trying to find some interesting Americans to talk about how the New York Yankees are going.

 

There were however some interesting and very hospitable Indians there and I remember them vividly because later when I was sick they gave me their only bare bed to sleep on and all the food they possessed in the world for breakfast. I think I remember that just as much as seeing the Taj Mahal by moonlight.

 

My point at_ nyc is that you can try and see TOO MUCH and a successful tour should not be assessed on how many churches to go through or how many Madonnas and Child you have counted. It doesn’t for me anyhow and yes it IS the overall experience and everything that entails.

 

Sure there is a balance although some people like Coral apparently want to trek around from dawn to dusk taking in the sights and then duck into one of those fine Russian Hotels for a quick sleep whilst some ignorant people like me are happy to rush back to our leaky run down boat for our cold plate of borsch and dry bread.

 

Now I know Coral is very busy at the moment and wouldn’t have the time to point out what we are going to miss when we do our boot camp cruise rather than a comprehensive luxury land tour but perhaps you can?

 

This is the itinerary again:

 

http://www.vikingrivercruises.com.au/rivercruises/russia-volga-waterways-moscow-stpetersburg-2012/itinerary.aspx

 

 

Frankski What time of year are you going? We are leaving home on May 29th - and will post when I return --> so can offer an opinion (for what it is worth...)

Frankski – Sept, thanks will look out for your report.

[at_nyc]

Before the disagreements drags on further, can anyone point me to similar souces to identify a good land tour company for Russia?

 

I'm definitely considering Russia seriously but having been talked out of cruising, I need to start working on more suitable alternatives.