Jones Act/Passenger Act Debarkation Question

[Karynanne]

Presently we have the Pacific Coastal Cruise, aboard Solstice booked for May, 2013. The cruise prior is a Hawaii Cruise (Embarking in Honolulu)...to Ensenada.

 

Our Pacific Coastal Cruise embarks in Ensenada. We would like to take the Hawaii cruise and then the Pacific Coastal Cruise.

 

After calling Celebrity and then the Captain's Club, I received information that stated, due to the Jones Act, we could not treat the two cruises as B2B's. But also (to make things complicated) after the first (Hawaii) cruise we had to disembark in Ensenada...board a bus back to San Diego, and then take a bus back again to Ensenada to embark on the Pacific Coastal cruise.

 

So my question is, have any of you done something similiar in your past cruise history? And did the Jones Act or Passenger Act come into play or was it discussed?

 

Any help would be appreciated.

 

Karyn

[Cruise Junky]

Well that's a scary answer. The law says the same vessel cannot transport you, not you have to leave the country in between.

[FLACRUISER99]

I don't think you can book this the US Gov. does not care if you ride a bus to SD an then back.

[FLACRUISER99]

I don't think you can book this the US Gov. does not care if you ride a bus to SD an then back.

They will treat this as one cruise from Honolulu to Seattle.

[Karynanne]

They will treat this as one cruise from Honolulu to Seattle.

 

Not according to Celebrity. And your prior post states the opposite.

[AlanAllyn]

I agree that this will not be allowed.

 

However, you might be able to do it if you are willing (and -X- is willing) to disembark in Victoria on the next to last day of the Coastal cruise.

[FLACRUISER99]

Not according to Celebrity. And your prior post states the opposite.

Celebrity is not always right(either am I), its the Passenger services act not the Jones act. I just don't want you to book this then be disappointed when you not allowed to board the 2nd leg.There is quite a long discussion about this starting on page 24 of the Solstice roll call http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?p=33251939#post33251939

[rwr235]

Agree that it cannot be treated as one cruise...and as previously stated, it is the Passenger Vessel Services Act that applies, not the Jones Act, which deals with cargo/goods.

 

The reason it cannot be "one cruise" is because it is illegal for Celebrity ( a foreign-flagged carrier) to transport you (passenger) from one US port (Honolulu) to another (Seattle) without calling at a distant foreign port...which Ensenada does not qualify as.

 

Hope this is accurate info so far...if not, I hope someone with better knowledge will correct me.

 

Woody

[Whippets]

Hi Karyn,

Hope you can get this straightened out as I know you really deserve this cruise! Wish you were joining us in December!

[cruisestitch]

It seems like someone at Celebrity was "thinking on the fly" trying to make a sale, but I don't think that leaving Ensanada, going to the US and then going back to Mexico to board the ship would really work. It certainly violates the spirit of the law, and if it didn't work, and you were refused passage once you returned to Ensanada, you would be stuck, angry, and out a lot of money, with all your possessions trapped on the ship.

[Karynanne]

Thanks for all the great information and insight. We have a "hold" on a cabin, and wanted more clarification before actually booking.

[BKFlowerMound]

Thanks for all the great information and insight. We have a "hold" on a cabin, and wanted more clarification before actually booking.

 

I believe the itinerary might violate the PVSA. I also believe that it is unlikely that disembarking in Ensenada, crossing the border, and then coming back to Ensenada and reboarding cures the problem. On the other hand, it might cure it.

 

My view is that none of that matters all that much. If Celebrity lets you book it. You do what they say (i.e., the ridiculous border shuffle). Than who cares. The fine is Celebrity's fine, not yours. I would strongly consider booking air with Celebrity in case it later says that it is an illegal itinerary and makes you cancel a leg. Document, document, document.

[Lois R]

Karyn, sending you my heartfelt condolences.

[cruisestitch]

I'm curious -- did Celebrity tell you that you would need to pack all your belongings and take them with you across the border and back?

 

Leaving everything on board as one would normally do on B2B journeys would surely indicate that the intent is to violate the PVSA.

 

Packing, disembarking, the bus rides both ways, unpacking again. Well, it doesn't sound very pleasant.

 

Did anyone you spoke to at Celebrity address this issue?

[Cruise Junky]

I'm curious -- did Celebrity tell you that you would need to pack all your belongings and take them with you across the border and back?

 

I'm curious about this too. Disney just pulled something similar in Vancouver and told passengers they needed to take their stuff and they had to change cabins when they did the second cruise. Dying to see if they get away with it.

[Cruise Arizona]

Kayrn I hope you can do it, but disembarking in Vancouver would be a nice alternative. The turn around day from Mex to CA, back to Mex would be miserable but still doable. So hopefully it will work out.

 

You know I was seriously considering either one of these itineraries as an alternative to our Sydney to Honolulu, especially be cause we would still get to sail with Garry and Bob. Garry and Bob are starting in Sydney so they have it easy. And you know the rest of the story, we ended up booking BTB out of Florida so we could cruise with the kids. We still don't have anyone on our roll calls for either one of those, so I hope my kids appreciate my sacrifice to spend time with them. :D

 

I agree, book and then see what happens, but document and have your bases covered. I hope you have a great time.

 

Take care and you know you are in my prayers right now for a very special reason.

[DrKoob]

Do any of you experts have a clue why sometimes they disembark the Hawaii cruises in Ensenada and sometimes they just stop there and then take the ship with all the pax back to San Diego. We are doing a Hawaii RT on Century in November and we stop in Ensenada from 7:00 pm to 11:00 pm on our last day then embark to San Diego. Why does the OP's Solstice cruise have to disembark and be bussed to SD?

 

Jim

[rwr235]

I am no expert...but the difference (I think) is that your cruise is a round-trip from and returning to the SAME US port...and need only visit a foreign port...as opposed to a "distant" foreign port (outside North America).

 

as I said...no expert...so if my explanation is incorrect...I will happily stand corrected by someone !

 

Woody

[Goofyisme]

I am no expert...but the difference (I think) is that your cruise is a round-trip from and returning to the SAME US port...and need only visit a foreign port...as opposed to a "distant" foreign port (outside North America).

 

as I said...no expert...so if my explanation is incorrect...I will happily stand corrected by someone !

 

Woody

 

Correct

[cruisestitch]

I'll give it a try and I'm sure if I get one part wrong someone will jump in.

 

there are two things to keep in mind

 

1. It is against the PVSA to transport passengers between one US port and a different US port without a distant foreign port in between. Mexico is not a distant foreign port.

 

2. Round trip in and out of the same US port, any foreign port may be visited, thus Canada, Bahamas, Mexico all qualify.

 

 

So -- round trip from San Diego to Hawaii and back to San Diego, all the ship needs to do is visit Mexico for a few hours

 

Going up the west coast, the ship can start in San Diego and end in Canada

(and obviously vice versa)

 

One way from Hawaii there is no distant foreign port to visit, so that cruise must end in Ensanada.

 

Now in the case of the OP's proposed itinerary, the cruise that starts in Hawaii has to end in Ensanada. The following cruise ends in Seattle. The OP is proposing one voyage (in essence, even though they are booked with separate booking numbers) that would start in Hawaii and end in Seattle. No distant foreign port to visit, so no passenger is supposed to travel from Hawaii to Seattle.

 

What is being proposed is a workaround whereby the passengers would disembark, be on the manifest for the transportation back to the US and then start over with another cruise, showing up on the manifest as leaving from San Diego on the bus to start cruise #2 in Mexico.

 

What isn't certain is if this violates the law. One way to look at it is, the passengers start their trip in Hawaii and end in Seattle, thus violating the PVSA. The other way to look at it is that they are two separate trips, with two separate booking numbers, the passengers don't stay on board, so they could be seen as two separate cruises.

 

Did I get it right?

[rwr235]

Much more eloquent than mine !! :D

 

Thank you !

 

Woody

[DrKoob]

It's a load of BS. Why hasn't this been repealed by now? It still amazes me that after all this time we still live with is archaic law. I think I get it but to me it makes no sense.

 

Could X get around the whole thing by finishing the Pacific Coastal cruise in Vancouver instead of here in Seattle? Would that work?

[DrKoob]

Could X get around the whole thing by finishing the Pacific Coastal cruise in Vancouver instead of here in Seattle? Would that work?

 

Let's change that to Victoria. My lovely bride just reminded me that Solstice can't fit under the Lion's Gate Bridge and therefore can't get into Vancouver.

[cruisestitch]

Cruise #1 has to end in Mexico.

 

The ship could sail empty up to San Diego and then start the Pacific Coast cruises from there if the cruise ends in Victoria.

 

Then the ship would still need to get to Seattle, so it would have to schedule a one or two-night re-positioning cruise between Victoria and Seattle in order to start the upcoming Alaska season.

 

And the passengers would probably still have to disembark in Mexico and be bussed up to San Diego to start cruise #2.

 

As to why the PVSA is still in existence, have a look here for an explanation of cabotage:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabotage

 

Now, the interesting thing is that even in the example given in this Wikipedia article, that deals with the hub and spoke nature of aviation, there is a workaround. The example is that a passenger wanting to travel from Boston to Seattle can book a ticket to Toronto, and a second ticket from Toronto to the west coast, but cannot travel on a single Air Canada ticket, as that would be allowing a foreign flagged airline to operate domestic US service. So it might appear that there SHOULD be a workaround for cruise ships. Maybe. Sort of.

[DrKoob]

 

As to why the PVSA is still in existence, have a look here for an explanation of cabotage:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabotage

 

Thanks for the link. Does a great job of explaining what it is but not necessarily the "why." Being a free-enterprise kind of guy, I happen to believe that as long as a carrier isn't being given an unfair advantage by being supported by a government, they should be able to sail, fly, drive wherever. Our US airlines for instance, could use the competition. I would rather fly a foreign carrier (CX, BA, etc.) than a domestic one, any day of the week.

 

And in the cruise ship industry, it's ludicrous since there are NO U.S. flagged ships to compete against unless Norwegian still has that one roaming around Hawaii.