Can HAL encourage participation in formal nights?

[3rdGenCunarder]

you are being looked over - and judged. are you just now realizing this? happens everyday, be it the grocery store or a cruise. sorry to burst your bubble.

 

This brings back memories. Years ago, a woman wrote a letter to the editor of our local newpaper complaining about how poorly the other women in the grocery store and nearby stores dressed. The rebuttal letter that was printed the next week was from a woman who said she didn't have time to dress up to do her shopping as she was too busy "doing good works." I remember that phrase because any time Mom or I would do a quick run to the store and not be dressed to the nines, we would say, "It's OK, we're doing good works."

[DizzyDallasDi]

A lot of these posts remind me of the comments from the "color analyst" on sports broadcasts who always seem to think they know more than the coach/manager of the team.

 

I can guarantee you that Troy Aikman knows a whole lot more than the Cowboys' GM, Jerry Jones. :)

[lovetocruise2020]

I can guarantee you that Troy Aikman knows a whole lot more than the Cowboys' GM, Jerry Jones. :)

 

You got that right! Thumbs up! :)

[swedish weave]

- I do not need to explain why or why not, thats the job of Holland America Line. Who knows? Maybe because of pushback from people who hate it? Who knows why they do what they do?

 

-Yes, a black and white ball would make money. For you to think it would not means you are just being hard headed. Give pax something to do after formal night dinner instead of shutting down the ship like they do, will create revenue. If they hosted the ball, people would come. They do have them on some ships not all. This would keep guests from ending the night because there was nothing very active or social to do.

 

-I cruise for comfort and relaxation as well, but I follow the dress code. I am SURE you do too...

 

If HAL started hosting this ball, you would not have to go... No one would make you.

 

Bottom line, is revenue could be made, all the while giving pax something to enjoy since they got dressed up already, and keep the ship from shutting down so early. More mileage out of that formal wear I say.

 

I am sorry you cant fathom that this could generate revenue, and be enjoyable to some pax.

 

 

No need to rant !! I understand if you don't have an answer to my question.

[pris993]

Interesting question. I suspect HAL could do more.

 

Obviously, Cunard does not have any problems promoting a more formal dress code every night. We did 2 cruises on the Queen Victoria in 2011 -- a 16 day TA and a 12 day Eastern Mediterranean. On both cruises folks dressed well every night for dinner.

 

Cunard's idea of smart casual is a "sports Jacket" with no tie, which is allowed in the MDR only on the 1st and last night of the cruise. Otherwise it is either formal or informal the rest of the cruise. I think there may have been a couple of exceptions on long port days, in Egypt and Israel on the second cruise. Since we always dress informal or formal I did not pay that much attention. It was really a pleasure to see everyone dressed so well. Long flights, luggage issues did not seem to be an issue for folks on Cunard. Cunard did do 4-5 different "balls" on each cruise and had wonderful dance music available each evening. Theatre productions were very good too.

 

We do not really care what others wear on cruises.

 

We do notice though that in general -- dress and appearance in society has become increasingly sloppy. Just the other day, we were out walking in a shopping center, noticed even children's clothes displayed in store windows looked like something that a kid might wear for Halloween or if they were in the circus vs regular school clothes.

 

Things have changed not just on cruise ships. Cunard is an exception.

[Wakepatrol]

If HAL really wants to increase bar and lounge revenue-every night and not just on formal evenings-they might want to consider putting some life into their moribund entertainment program.

 

A black and white ball, a free jar of that cheap fizzy wine, or a discount on a bar bill won't impact our decison to go casual. Well....perhaps a coupon for $200. off our next cruise might just do it.

 

If HAL reversed their decision to lay off wine stewards, established a better wine list and priced it well, they might even increase their MDR bar revenue to the point where the MDR becomes a reasonable revenue centre. Right now they seem to be treating it like a cost centre.

 

 

If HAL gave away FREE cheap champagne all night they'd be dressed and lined up from bow to stern. Are you kidding me? People are jammed against the dining room doors waiting for them to open,every evening like they haven't eaten in a week. Let the champagne flow (if You're dressed) and they will come.

[iancal]

You could very well be right about those freebees.

 

Been in Costco lately? I was there a few days ago, bunch of people scrambling to get to those food displays where they give out free samples. Counted three purses just sitting in carts while their owners were elbowing their way to get something for nothing.

 

A business associate got a free bottle of wine on his Veendam cruise...a thank you from the front desk for having to suffer through five days of 84 degree heat in his cabin. He told me it was the $6. variety of fizzy white. He made a point of sending it back to the Hotel Manager. He and his wife were just a little insulted.

[lovetocruise2020]

If HAL gave away FREE cheap champagne all night they'd be dressed and lined up from bow to stern. Are you kidding me? People are jammed against the dining room doors waiting for them to open,every evening like they haven't eaten in a week. Let the champagne flow (if You're dressed) and they will come.

 

I agree completely, and In fact, I have seen it.

 

When the OP suggested a Black & White Ball, it reminded me of the Radiance (RCCL) like 8 years ago I think,

 

After dinner, the Captains Ball had a Champagne toast, followed by three hours of open dancing to a orchestra (a smaller one, maybe a band without a singer)? Anyhow, it was the latest we have ever stayed up on a ship. It started after dinner, at about 9:30 he took photos with pax, and then right at 10:30 he gave his speech, (he then danced with his wife and snuck away) then there was about three hours of open dancing. We bought the drink specials in the "captains ball" glass, bought the photo, and everyone, I mean everyone was in their very best attire.

 

One of my favorite events on land or sea that I have ever been to.

I can promise you, they definitely made their money!!!

 

I know HAL does this on some ships. This would get them lining up, they sure did on the Radiance which was very similar to a HAL ship in layout and size.

 

Something like this gets people out, spending and not feeling like they got dressed for nothing (or just dinner) since the ship has nothing much going on at night.

[Jemima]

Just recognize that a number of passengers either do not wish to do any formal nights or do not wish to do every formal night. Formal nights were enjoyable the first few cruises, but we gradually grew tired of them. Our last cruise was 14 days and we did 2 of the 4 formal nights. Those two were Christmas and New Year's Eve. Our next cruise will be 17 days with probably 4 or 5 formal nights. We might do 1 or possibly 2, but will skip the others.

I can't think of any incentives likely to be offered that would cause us to do more formal nights. Free drinks would be a non-incentive.

Luggage has nothing to do with our choice to do or not do formal nights. We often take 1 1/2 checked bags each and would have plenty of room for formal wear.

We do respect others desire to dress for formal nights and always follow the dress code when we eat in the MDR. We also dress within the smart casual range when we dine in the lido in the evening.

[gkny]

I'll dress in resort casual on formal nights. I wear a tie and jacket everyday since I'm a detective so while I'm on vacation I dress very nice but not with a suit.

[peaches from georgia]

The bottom line question is why HAL would have any interest in doing this when they clearly are going in the other direction, as are all mass market cruiselines and most of the luxury lines. Most lines are now resort/country club casual to satisfy the majority of pax who want a more laid back cruise vacation. HAL's dress code has been diluted in the past few years to the point that there is no requirement for anything close to real formalwear and on some ships even the suggested dress is not required to get in the MDR on 'formal' nights.

 

Competition to fill cabins is just too stiff for HAL to go back to promoting formal dress. They have been working too hard to give the opposite impression and attract younger and more casual pax and families.

[arewethereyet]

The bottom line question is why HAL would have any interest in doing this when they clearly are going in the other direction, as are all mass market cruiselines and most of the luxury lines. Most lines are now resort/country club casual to satisfy the majority of pax who want a more laid back cruise vacation. HAL's dress code has been diluted in the past few years to the point that there is no requirement for anything close to real formalwear and on some ships even the suggested dress is not required to get in the MDR on 'formal' nights.

 

Competition to fill cabins is just too stiff for HAL to go back to promoting formal dress. They have been working too hard to give the opposite impression and attract younger and more casual pax and families.

That's what I said earlier. The OP is based on an assumption that HAL WANTS to increase participation. There is no evidence to indicate that they do.

[swedish weave]

One important thing to remember is that Carnival made themselves a huge success by giving their customers a relaxed atmosphere.

 

Many of those lines that tried to remain formal are now owned by Carnival or are out of business. (including HAL)

[Viesczy]

Try getting a rolling-upright with a built-in suiter. They work. I've packed two suits (or a Tuxedo and a sport jacket) with dress shirts into the suiter and they come out looking great every time (like they've been in a garment bag). Travelpro makes some excellent rolling upright bags with suiters.

 

RevNeal,

Hmm... I didn't even know such a critter existed! That's such a great idea! I look at luggage less often than I look at the movie selection on Lifetime! Thank you!

 

That means suits so loud that people go blind on every cruise now! Yes, you all have been warned! :D

 

Derek

[iancal]

I think that the OP is correct. At the end of the day, there are fewer and fewer customers who wish to dress up for formal evenings.

 

It is not because of baggage fees or anything else. It is simply that their idea of a holiday is not wearing a suit/jacket, tie etc. Not that they really need an excuse.

 

My guess is that there are many people like us who once they went casual had absolutely no desire to go back to hauling those clothes that were only required for a few evenings.

 

HAL recognizes this...it is obvious from their enforcement or lack thereof. As a mass market cruise line, HAL will go with the majority or gravitate to where they think the majority of their current and future target market are headed. It is just good business.

 

So, IMHO it is not much use moaning and groaning about it. Time and tide wait for no man. The one option is to move from a mass market line to a more expensive cruise line that offers that niche product.

[3rdGenCunarder]

I agree completely, and In fact, I have seen it.

 

When the OP suggested a Black & White Ball, it reminded me of the Radiance (RCCL) like 8 years ago I think,

 

After dinner, the Captains Ball had a Champagne toast, followed by three hours of open dancing to a orchestra (a smaller one, maybe a band without a singer)? Anyhow, it was the latest we have ever stayed up on a ship. It started after dinner, at about 9:30 he took photos with pax, and then right at 10:30 he gave his speech, (he then danced with his wife and snuck away) then there was about three hours of open dancing. We bought the drink specials in the "captains ball" glass, bought the photo, and everyone, I mean everyone was in their very best attire.

 

One of my favorite events on land or sea that I have ever been to.

I can promise you, they definitely made their money!!!

 

I know HAL does this on some ships. This would get them lining up, they sure did on the Radiance which was very similar to a HAL ship in layout and size.

 

Something like this gets people out, spending and not feeling like they got dressed for nothing (or just dinner) since the ship has nothing much going on at night.

 

I'm sure this would make money, and I would definitely go to something like this. Cunard makes a party out of many of their formal nights and it's wonderful. The big problem I see for HAL doing this is a venue. What lounge is large enough for a big party and dancing, plus convenient access for lining up to have the photo taken with the captain?

 

We were away from HAL for many years (while they were not in NYC), and when we went back to Veendam, we were suprised that there was no captain's cocktail party, just a "champagne toast" in the showroom. Not sure they even did the toast on Veendam, I only remember it from Zuiderdam. So, formal or not, they don't do much to make the evenings "festive."

 

One important thing to remember is that Carnival made themselves a huge success by giving their customers a relaxed atmosphere.

 

Many of those lines that tried to remain formal are now owned by Carnival or are out of business. (including HAL)

 

Carnival was big before the dress-down trend. They bought HAL in 1989, when Carnival and HAL still had formal nights. They were not rescuing HAL from the brink of failure caused by failure to follow a new trend. Heck, back then RCCL, X, and even NCL had a formal night dress code and people complied with it and appeared to enjoy it.

 

Cunard, despite being under the Carnival umbrella, still has wonderful formal nights and the passengers all take part. Although a dark suit is part of their formal dress code, I'd estimate that 95% of the men wear tuxes, and the ladies dress accordingly.

[tip]

I think that the OP is correct. At the end of the day, there are fewer and fewer customers who wish to dress up for formal evenings.

 

It is not because of baggage fees or anything else. It is simply that their idea of a holiday is not wearing a suit/jacket, tie etc. Not that they really need an excuse.

 

My guess is that there are many people like us who once they went casual had absolutely no desire to go back to hauling those clothes that were only required for a few evenings.

 

HAL recognizes this...it is obvious from their enforcement or lack thereof. As a mass market cruise line, HAL will go with the majority or gravitate to where they think the majority of their current and future target market are headed. It is just good business.

 

So, IMHO it is not much use moaning and groaning about it. Time and tide wait for no man. The one option is to move from a mass market line to a more expensive cruise line that offers that niche product.

 

Very well said, although I am sure that others will disagree. Some folks want to hold on to tradition and I can accept and appreciate that. No one is talking about stopping them from dressing formally if they so choose. On the otherhand, some folks can accept change and some can not. Look at old movies about cruising when everyone dressed formally every night. Look at photos of baseball games up to the 40's and 50's where every man had on a suit and tie. Times change! Please give those of us who want to change the opportunity to do so!

[hypercafe]

I guess the pass have said what they want with their money. Here in NYC NCL has had two and at times three ships, all sailing full week after week for the last 12 to 15 years. They are putting there new ship here in the spring. These ships are resort casual with optional formal nights and open dinning in ten or more rest. I am sure they make a profit. HAL can't keep one small ship here for half a year and make money. What cruising style do you thing the mass market likes. X put new rest an there ships and they are all resort casual all the time. Oceania just built two new ships with twice the per diem as HAL, all resort casual and all full with no discounting, I know cause I am booked on one. HAL should be trying to figure how to go the way of the rest. After all you can still watch the guy in the 30's bell hop uniform sweep the lobby. I don't think you can use the QM as a example, it is a one of a kind that has a following. If I was on her I would bring my tux and enjoy it.

[buckirj1]

Without commenting on whether or not it would work, or whether or not I'd like it, HAL "could" probably do things to promote formal night participation. A "bring back the elegance" ad campaign, perhaps. However, that'd be a truly innovative stance in this day and age, and from every observation I've been able to make, HAL is NOT an innovative cruise line. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

 

From an outsider's perspective, I think HAL and most other lines pretty much get it right by valuing both sets of customers, and providing options for all. Would that we all (including myself here) be so accommodating.

[iancal]

I have to agree with you. We tend to prefer HAL, Princess, and Celebrity.

 

When it comes to innovation-in entertainment, accomodation, dining options, etc, HAL falls to the very bottom of the list. Celebrity at the top, and Princess in the middle...from our perspective.

 

HAL seems to stuck in neutral-not a good business strategy. It is unfortunate. HAL has a good product and some great itineraries but I am not sure that this is enough in today's competitive market.

[dakrewser]

I guess the pass have said what they want with their money. Here in NYC NCL has had two and at times three ships, all sailing full week after week for the last 12 to 15 years. They are putting there new ship here in the spring. These ships are resort casual with optional formal nights and open dinning in ten or more rest. I am sure they make a profit. HAL can't keep one small ship here for half a year and make money. What cruising style do you thing the mass market likes. X put new rest an there ships and they are all resort casual all the time. Oceania just built two new ships with twice the per diem as HAL, all resort casual and all full with no discounting, I know cause I am booked on one. HAL should be trying to figure how to go the way of the rest. After all you can still watch the guy in the 30's bell hop uniform sweep the lobby. I don't think you can use the QM as a example, it is a one of a kind that has a following. If I was on her I would bring my tux and enjoy it.

 

No need for HAL to copy anyone as they rarely sail with empty cabins. Nor should we want every ship to be the same. It's bad enough that cookie cutter chain restaurants and shopping malls are fast making every city in the world look like each other - let's try to keep at least some diversity around.

[hypercafe]

I guess the suggestion here was HAL copy Cunard, where there are lots of formal nights. I really wanted to do QM to Canada this fall however I just couldn't hack 5 formal nights in 7 on a line that takes it serious. I really have no problem what people ware and I really enjoy formal night on NCL, in fact I think it's nicer on NCL as the Captain and officers walk around for pictures and just to say hi. Dinner is open so it goes on all night with the shows fitting in. The problem I have here is people judging me on what I ware and trying to say I am spoiling their night by not following the RULES!!

[dakrewser]

The problem I have here is people judging me on what I ware and trying to say I am spoiling their night by not following the RULES!!

 

I'm not going to judge you on what you wear (heck, some of the "formally" dressed are scarier then the one's in casual wear!), but I will judge people on whether or not they follow the rules. Because I wonder if they also feel the need for candlelight on their verandah, or ironing in their cabin, or flushing junk down the toilet, or blocking their verandah door open, etc...

[lovetocruise2020]

I'm sure this would make money, and I would definitely go to something like this. Cunard makes a party out of many of their formal nights and it's wonderful. The big problem I see for HAL doing this is a venue. What lounge is large enough for a big party and dancing, plus convenient access for lining up to have the photo taken with the captain?

 

We were away from HAL for many years (while they were not in NYC), and when we went back to Veendam, we were suprised that there was no captain's cocktail party, just a "champagne toast" in the showroom. Not sure they even did the toast on Veendam, I only remember it from Zuiderdam. So, formal or not, they don't do much to make the evenings "festive."quote]

 

 

Well, I have only been on the Eurodam/Nieuw Amsterdam and I would suggest Northern Lights for the small stage and large dance floor.

Not sure on other ships. But other ships are where I have seen the photos of it.

[LAFFNVEGAS]

I have been too busy this week to spend any time reading the boards, today is my day off so with a hot cup of coffee I sat down and read this whole thread. Talk about people not understanding the cruise business and being a lot like the politicians that are totally out of touch with reality :D

Holland America is a business that is continually looking to increase on board revenue. Shore Excursions are truly one of their big money makers. The Cruise Critic Board is just a very small percentage of people who cruise Holland America. I talk to many people in my job about cruising and I would guess that less than 2% of people do not know or have a clue about Cruise Critic.

Ring the bell...ding..ding ding we have a WINNER!!!!

 

The bottom line question is why HAL would have any interest in doing this when they clearly are going in the other direction, as are all mass market cruiselines and most of the luxury lines. Most lines are now resort/country club casual to satisfy the majority of pax who want a more laid back cruise vacation. HAL's dress code has been diluted in the past few years to the point that there is no requirement for anything close to real formalwear and on some ships even the suggested dress is not required to get in the MDR on 'formal' nights.

 

Competition to fill cabins is just too stiff for HAL to go back to promoting formal dress. They have been working too hard to give the opposite impression and attract younger and more casual pax and families.

 

Peaches this is probably the most intelligent post on this whole thread. Not that I do not agree with several of some of the other posters ;)

While YES HAL is filling these ships and there is never a cabin that goes out empty, they are not filled at rack rate, a huge percentage is filled on reduced rates or Flash last minutes rates. Contrary to cruise lines such as Crystal, Regent (which is Country Club Casual all the time) or even Cunard, HAL really does not make a profit on filling those cabins and the price you paid for the cruise. Their profits to stay in the Black come from on board spending. They are going to do what is best for them in keeping the bottom line in the black. HAL's idea at increasing revuene is definitely not giving out their free lousy tastying champagne to get more people to dress up, nor would it be to have a special menu that would cost them more money and time. They have enough silly ideas right now from the Bean Counters in the corner glassed in office at 300 Elliott Ave that are not physically on the ship telling them to cut back, do things that we are all complaining about so they can save more money. The suggestions made originally by the OP were silly at best. I am sure that those with HAL involved with revenue are getting quite the chuckle over all of this.

We all dream of our childhood and want that Cinderella story and to go to the Ball. Sadly those days are gone, The young cruisers could care less. One of the reasons HAL is not selling is because passengers do not want to dress up, I hear this frequently too. HAL wants these cruiser that are going to spend lots of money on board, when the cruise ends the bottom line is they could care less if you do or do not dress up as long as you spent money on board.

I would like to pose a question to those that want to dress Formal how much was your on board spending including prepurchase of things like Shore Excursions? Yes, there will be the braggers stating how much they spend but bottom line is many of the long time cruisers spend very little on board. HAL is not going to survive if they do not move with the trends. The Trend is to go Country Club Casual attracting the younger newer cruiser with money to spend, not the retired, fixed income past passengers.