Is Carnival Falling Behind?

[stevenr597]

Just read a story that RCCL is planning to build and launch Oasis III and IV. In their press release they state that these new ships will be even more inovative thant the Allure and Oasis of the Seas. In addition, there is much publicity and news about the Quantum of the Seas. NCL has also recently come out with some new and inovative ships.

 

Carnival used to be the leader in building new and innovative ships such as the Conquest Class. They fell behind with ships like the Breeze and Dream which were little more than larger ships to carry large number of cruisers.

 

I feel that Carnival has lost its edge and in an attempt to be the Cheapest Cruise Line at sea. They can no longer compare with their competittiors such as RCCL and NCL.

 

What are your thoughts. Is price the only thing that Carnival should care or worry about?

[Tapi]

Carnival's new ships stopped being innovative in 1996, when the Destiny was launched. Most new ships in the Carnival fleet have been derived from the same old design since.

 

Carnival's CEO has made it very clear that their niche are the passengers looking at the most affordable way to cruise, which means that they will not invest in new ship designs of the caliber of Royal's or NCL's newbuilds. Its not what they are interested in. It's just not financially feasible to charge budget prices to support what an Oasis type ship offers.

 

There's no right or wrong here, and Carnival hasn't "lost its edge" because they are doing things the way that works for them. Each one of these cruise line is using a different strategy to attract passengers, and each one is being successful at it. The day that Carnival stops filling up their ships and making money, they may be forced to get more innovative then. But until then, Carnival will continue charging budget prices and keeping their ships more basic.

 

 

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Edited May 12, 2014 by Tapi

[okgirl]

Just read a story that RCCL is planning to build and launch Oasis III and IV. In their press release they state that these new ships will be even more inovative thant the Allure and Oasis of the Seas. In addition, there is much publicity and news about the Quantum of the Seas. NCL has also recently come out with some new and inovative ships.

 

Carnival used to be the leader in building new and innovative ships such as the Conquest Class. They fell behind with ships like the Breeze and Dream which were little more than larger ships to carry large number of cruisers.

 

I feel that Carnival has lost its edge and in an attempt to be the Cheapest Cruise Line at sea. They can no longer compare with their competittiors such as RCCL and NCL.

 

What are your thoughts. Is price the only thing that Carnival should care or worry about?

 

I really couldn't disagree more. Carnival is building ships that are quite innovative and while not looking to build behemoths have increase the size of their ships and added unique features in their Dream Class ships.

 

With the ongoing addition of 2.0 upgrades on the Conquest class ships even those feel new and fresh.

 

I don't think you can compare a Conquest class to a Breeze or a Magic.....the later simply have so much more than the former class that it's apples to oranges.

 

The Vista is going to be the largest and newest class of ship that comes out in 2016, and while I'm very excited to start seeing how the larger space is used I'm not really a fan of the ships getting too much bigger......I'm glad the Conquest and Dream class ships will still be around for a few more decades.

 

I don't really see us cruising with RCCL or NCL.

[reerun25]

Carnival's new ships stopped being innovative in 1996, when the Destiny was launched. Most new ships in the Carnival fleet have been derived from the same old design since.

 

Carnival's CEO has made it very clear that their niche are the passengers looking at the most affordable way to cruise, which means that they will not invest in new ship designs of the caliber of Royal's or NCL's newbuilds. Its not what they are interested in. It's just not financially feasible to charge budget prices to support what an Oasis type ship offers.

 

There's no right or wrong here, and Carnival hasn't "lost its edge" because they are doing things the way that works for them. Each one of these cruise line is using a different strategy to attract passengers, and each one is being successful at it. The day that Carnival stops filling up their ships and making money, they may be forced to get more innovative then. But until then, Carnival will continue charging budget prices and keeping their ships more basic.

 

 

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Could not have said it better myself. It is akin to comparing GM to BMW...

[loubetti]

Carnival's new ships stopped being innovative in 1996, when the Destiny was launched. Most new ships in the Carnival fleet have been derived from the same old design since.

 

Carnival's CEO has made it very clear that their niche are the passengers looking at the most affordable way to cruise, which means that they will not invest in new ship designs of the caliber of Royal's or NCL's newbuilds. Its not what they are interested in. It's just not financially feasible to charge budget prices to support what an Oasis type ship offers.

 

There's no right or wrong here, and Carnival hasn't "lost its edge" because they are doing things the way that works for them. Each one of these cruise line is using a different strategy to attract passengers, and each one is being successful at it. The day that Carnival stops filling up their ships and making money, they may be forced to get more innovative then. But until then, Carnival will continue charging budget prices and keeping their ships more basic.

 

 

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Agree 100%. Glad you beat me to writing it, saved me time!

[stevenr597]

Could not have said it better myself. It is akin to comparing GM to BMW...

 

Interesting note. However many years ago G.M., especially with its Cadillac Division was the envy of the world and their automobiles were certainly equal and in many cases (Toronado-front wheel drive) better than their European Counterparts. Then G.M. decided to build cookie cutter cars and stress cost as its primary objective in building cars. The result... the U.S. Government had to bail them out and today G.M. happy to compete with Toyata and Hyundai.

 

I am just saying that while inexpensive, Carnival used to be able to compete with the other cruise lines. It is my opinion, and anyone has the right to disagree, that their new "inovations" are not in the same class as RCCL and NCL today.

[PaulMedik]

Just read a story that RCCL is planning to build and launch Oasis III and IV. In their press release they state that these new ships will be even more inovative thant the Allure and Oasis of the Seas. In addition, there is much publicity and news about the Quantum of the Seas. NCL has also recently come out with some new and inovative ships.

 

Carnival used to be the leader in building new and innovative ships such as the Conquest Class. They fell behind with ships like the Breeze and Dream which were little more than larger ships to carry large number of cruisers.

 

I feel that Carnival has lost its edge and in an attempt to be the Cheapest Cruise Line at sea. They can no longer compare with their competittiors such as RCCL and NCL.

 

What are your thoughts. Is price the only thing that Carnival should care or worry about?

 

 

stevenr597,

 

Years ago I visited my first mega sized indoor shopping mall and loved it. I haven't been to a mega mall in the last decade and a half. I heard that most are going out of business or converted to offices?

 

I'm not implying that Oasis class ships are malls, but that's why I've avoided them. I do plan to visit one first hand sometime, but I'm not so sure I'll call it a cruise.

 

Our first cruise was in 1989 and each cruise thereafter we sailed 'bigger and better' ships. We sailed Dream when she was new and I almost decided not to sail that size again, but Breeze proved to me that bigger could be better. Dream had the feel of being on a cruise, but it was a cruise with too many people; we didn't feel that way at all on Breeze.

 

I have seen the Oasis class ships and I'm impressed that they float, but that's where my fascination with them ends. I suspect that some day I will visit or tour one of the Oasis Class ships as they are on display at a cruise port. They would make for a fine excursion.

Edited May 12, 2014 by PaulMedik

[Tapi]

It is my opinion, and anyone has the right to disagree, that their new "inovations" are not in the same class as RCCL and NCL today.

 

 

You are 100%. Carnival's innovations are not in the same class as RCCL and NCL. But once again, that's not what Carnival is interested in to set them apart. That doesn't mean that they are falling behind. Different cruise lines offer something different that attracts different passengers.

 

Here's another example. Last summer, we sailed on HAL for the first time. Talk about a night and day experience from our previous sailings on the Allure of the Seas! The ship was much smaller, very traditional, and void of anything innovative. But, they excelled with all the small details, the white gloved service, room service delivered in fine china, fresh flowers throughout the ship, a quiet pool deck with no live music or any type of organized entertainment, throw blankets for balcony use, and laundry delivered in a wicker basket wrapped in paper tissue and a gold foil seal.

 

Would you say that HAL is falling behind because their ships are not "innovative"? No. They choose to attract passengers by offering something that sets them apart from other mass market cruise lines. For HAL, it happens to be a more refined experience. For Carnival, it happens to be budget pricing. Is either one falling behind?

 

 

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Edited May 12, 2014 by Tapi

[kristie64063]

Interesting note. However many years ago G.M., especially with its Cadillac Division was the envy of the world and their automobiles were certainly equal and in many cases (Toronado-front wheel drive) better than their European Counterparts. Then G.M. decided to build cookie cutter cars and stress cost as its primary objective in building cars. The result... the U.S. Government had to bail them out and today G.M. happy to compete with Toyata and Hyundai.

 

I am just saying that while inexpensive, Carnival used to be able to compete with the other cruise lines. It is my opinion, and anyone has the right to disagree, that their new "inovations" are not in the same class as RCCL and NCL today.

 

Their prices aren't in the same class either, and that is what I LOVE! There are so many fun things to do on the ships and also fun places to stop, I would NEVER miss all the "innovative" things on the "bigger, better" ships. How anyone could be bored I don't know. Of course I haven't taken 30 cruises either, lol! But, while I love to cruise, I LOVE to travel, and that means all travel! Disney! Road trips! Mission Trips! Sightseeing trips (historical)! Other countries! Love it ALL!! Where's my sponsor so I can quit my day job and travel?? ;)

[jimbo5544]

stevenr597,

 

Years ago I visited my first mega sized indoor shopping mall and loved it. I haven't been to a mega mall in the last decade and a half. I heard that most are going out of business or converted to offices?

 

I'm not implying that Oasis class ships are malls, but that's why I've avoided them. I do plan to visit one first hand sometime, but I'm not so sure I'll call it a cruise.

 

Our first cruise was in 1989 and each cruise thereafter we sailed 'bigger and better' ships. We sailed Dream when she was new and I almost decided not to sail that size again, but Breeze proved to me that bigger could be better. Dream had the feel of being on a cruise, but it was a cruise with too many people; we didn't feel that way at all on Breeze.

 

I have seen the Oasis class ships and I'm impressed that they float, but that's where my fascination with them ends. I suspect that some day I will visit or tour one of the Oasis Class ships as they are on display at a cruise port. They would make for a fine excursion.

 

Well said Paul. I will take it a step further in that I have sailed Oasis this past March. Your mall at sea comment is actually right on. The ship is a marvel, but to be honest, the experience was not a cruise for us. It was much more closer to a Disney vacation (which is not a bad thing, but it's not a cruise....if that makes sense).

 

That being said, and I mentioned it earlier in the Vista thread, with the announcement of Royal building a fourth Oasis class ship as announced on Friday, I do think it puts more pressure on Carnival for another new build announcement. The longer they delay (not sure that is the right word....but) it makes the Fantasy class that much older (and the Fantasy has been rumored on the market for a while now). The age of the fleet does not mean the experience is less (note Delta in the airline business), but time does march on.

[lola61]

Did the Breeze last year, a great ship, but just did the Ecstasy and it was awesome, bigger isn't always better :cool:

[skyeman27]

The Dream class ships have the best spa of any ship we have been on, we have cruised on the Dream 4 times mainly because of the Cloud 9 Spa...

Edited May 12, 2014 by gklow

[fin]

Thanks to Tapi for some well written and well reasoned contributions. Very constructive and informative.

[stevenr597]

You are 100%. Carnival's innovations are not in the same class as RCCL and NCL. But once again, that's not what Carnival is interested in to set them apart. That doesn't mean that they are falling behind. Different cruise lines offer something different that attracts different passengers.

 

Here's another example. Last summer, we sailed on HAL for the first time. Talk about a night and day experience from our previous sailings on the Allure of the Seas! The ship was much smaller, very traditional, and void of anything innovative. But, they excelled with all the small details, the white gloved service, room service delivered in fine china, fresh flowers throughout the ship, a quiet pool deck with no live music or any type of organized entertainment, throw blankets for balcony use, and laundry delivered in a wicker basket wrapped in paper tissue and a gold foil seal.

 

Would you say that HAL is falling behind because their ships are not "innovative"? No. They choose to attract passengers by offering something that sets them apart from other mass market cruise lines. For HAL, it happens to be a more refined experience. For Carnival, it happens to be budget pricing. Is either one falling behind?

 

 

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Excellent comments. HAL has always been noted for their service and attention to detail and that is their selling point. In the past, while Carnival was known as a budget line you could always count on their their service, how friendly the staff was, the pride that the staff took in their ships, and the quality of food.

 

However, I feel that Carnival no longer has these "qualities" especially in regards to food quality and service.

 

We have seen numerous examples where a business in an attempt to hold down on price compromises everything else. Usually these business models do not survive. Will Carnival be such an example.

[jimbo5544]

Interesting note. However many years ago G.M., especially with its Cadillac Division was the envy of the world and their automobiles were certainly equal and in many cases (Toronado-front wheel drive) better than their European Counterparts. Then G.M. decided to build cookie cutter cars and stress cost as its primary objective in building cars. The result... the U.S. Government had to bail them out and today G.M. happy to compete with Toyata and Hyundai.

 

I am just saying that while inexpensive, Carnival used to be able to compete with the other cruise lines. It is my opinion, and anyone has the right to disagree, that their new "inovations" are not in the same class as RCCL and NCL today.

 

My only comments to your post is that while you are correct that Royal and NCL are innovative, I don't want to "pay" for those things in my cruise fare, they are not what I want from a cruise line. While some think Quantum is to die for with ejector pods, sky dive simulations, Broadway shows, etc etc etc that is not what I want out of my cruise experience. So I guess my point is I am happy with where Carnival is at, and while I would like to see new ships, "innovative" amusement parks at sea or no MDR experience is not on my wish list.

[Sparky2]

I really couldn't disagree more. Carnival is building ships that are quite innovative and while not looking to build behemoths have increase the size of their ships and added unique features in their Dream Class ships.

 

With the ongoing addition of 2.0 upgrades on the Conquest class ships even those feel new and fresh.

 

I don't think you can compare a Conquest class to a Breeze or a Magic.....the later simply have so much more than the former class that it's apples to oranges.

 

The Vista is going to be the largest and newest class of ship that comes out in 2016, and while I'm very excited to start seeing how the larger space is used I'm not really a fan of the ships getting too much bigger......I'm glad the Conquest and Dream class ships will still be around for a few more decades.

 

I don't really see us cruising with RCCL or NCL.

 

I agree. Bigger isn't always better. We are not interested in cruising on a mega ship.

[jimbo5544]

Excellent comments. HAL has always been noted for their service and attention to detail and that is their selling point. In the past, while Carnival was known as a budget line you could always count on their their service, how friendly the staff was, the pride that the staff took in their ships, and the quality of food.

 

However, I feel that Carnival no longer has these "qualities" especially in regards to food quality and service.

 

We have seen numerous examples where a business in an attempt to hold down on price compromises everything else. Usually these business models do not survive. Will Carnival be such an example.

 

Carnival had a couple tough years, there is no question. While cutbacks are there (and they are there for all cruise lines, make no mistake about that), I think a lot of the criticism and band wagon mentality. Having sailed Oasis on March I can honestly tell you that I thought the Carnival MDR food was a bit better. Carnival Steakhouses are much better than Chops. I really felt nickel and dimed on our Oasis cruise. That is not a better cruise experience in my book.

[SUSIEK]

Innovative doesn't mean good for everyone. I have been cruising since the 80's when I was in my early 20's. Love the experience of being on a cruise ship. Love being pampered. I don't care to go ice-skating, ride a bumper car, merry go round or hang over the side of the ship in a pod. For me personally I am not impressed in the direction of Royal Caribbean and we are Diamond members. Thank goodness for their smaller ships.

 

We have been sailing more and more on Carnival and have really enjoyed it. I never thought I would say that after being so loyal to RCL for many years. Carnival offers good value for the money. We want some fun slides for our son and decent pools.... very easy to please :-)

 

We have also sailed frequently on Princess and were pleasantly surprised. The last Princess ship had 5 pools. NEVER an issue of not getting a chair close to the pool .

NCL has a good product also. As long as they don't start with the crazy gimmicks we will continue to sail them also.

 

No crazy gimmicks for this family please!!!! Just give us a clean cabin, good food & service, we pretty much make our own fun after that.

[snc_cam]

I agree. Bigger isn't always better. We are not interested in cruising on a mega ship.

 

I'm with you. I prefer a smaller ship and looking forward to the Pride cruise in March. I just wish the rates for the Pride would be lower since it is actually cheaper for me/wife to fly to Florida for the cruises out of the FLL, PC, and Tampa ports. Plus, we get more islands than just Bahamas and cruising the mid-Atlantic in the winter. :)

[cruzcrazy336]

Bigger ships = More people = Longer lines:eek:

[Pine Bluff]

Just read a story that RCCL is planning to build and launch Oasis III and IV. In their press release they state that these new ships will be even more inovative thant the Allure and Oasis of the Seas. In addition, there is much publicity and news about the Quantum of the Seas. NCL has also recently come out with some new and inovative ships.

 

Carnival used to be the leader in building new and innovative ships such as the Conquest Class. They fell behind with ships like the Breeze and Dream which were little more than larger ships to carry large number of cruisers.

 

I feel that Carnival has lost its edge and in an attempt to be the Cheapest Cruise Line at sea. They can no longer compare with their competittiors such as RCCL and NCL.

 

What are your thoughts. Is price the only thing that Carnival should care or worry about?

 

 

Carnival passed that torch when they decided against their Pinnicle project, and just let Royal launch their Genesis project.

 

Some predicted the "Monsters of the Seas" failure way before they found their water line, and scoffed at their mere existance, but we're silenced when a third, and now a fourth was announced.

 

Others try to compare a non Oasis/Allure experience to one that is, but there simply is no comparison. Seems Carnival just keeps putting out amendment ships to their Destiny class, or worse, putting out the actual Destiny as a Sunshine class.

 

I believe Vista will be or not be their turning point. If its just the Dream with two whale tails, they're toast.

[cjknox]

I think we often get caught up in overall ship size and seem to equate that with the word "innovative".

 

By definition innovative is to make changes in something established, especially by introducing new methods, ideas, or products. This has and continues to be done on all new builds by the major cruise brands, they just do it to different degrees but they all do it. It is clear that CCL, RCL, and NCL have different philosophies in terms of shipbuilding. The best word to describe Carnivals new building strategy would be conservative; meaning that the size and what is offered on board their new builds change but not drastically. Carnival also places emphasis on upgrading older ships, and their 2.0 initiative has been met with high marks. Whereas RCL and NCL have obviously gone in the opposite direction which isn't necessarily a bad thing but they may begin to create an unattainable expectation where every new ship has to be completely different and more "innovative" than the last; and I think that we are beginning to see this with the Quantum class.

 

Excellent posts Tapo.

[JerseyHorseLover]

I am not interested in the mammouth ships. Too many people, much more $$, and not interested in some of what is on the ship. Yes, I like RCCL and did one on a small ship of theirs, but I just cruised on the Carnival Ecstasy and enjoyed the smaller ship, and Carnival has what the others do not have......."no single supplement" on some of their cruises. A cruise is what you make it!:D

[Cruising Rules]

Excellent comments. HAL has always been noted for their service and attention to detail and that is their selling point. In the past, while Carnival was known as a budget line you could always count on their their service, how friendly the staff was, the pride that the staff took in their ships, and the quality of food.

 

However, I feel that Carnival no longer has these "qualities" especially in regards to food quality and service.

 

We have seen numerous examples where a business in an attempt to hold down on price compromises everything else. Usually these business models do not survive. Will Carnival be such an example.

 

You are right on the money (pardon the pun). Any business who leads with price must eventually find ways to maintain profits. Those ways as we see in the evolution of the Carnival product usually have a direct impact on the customer's experience. Yes there are many in this thread that have defended Carnival's path and that is fine. Many are driven by price as we all look for ways to maintain a happy lifestyle in a tough economy. My point is this. Carnival Cruise Line must provide their shareholders with an acceptable level of profit. As a line that features price first as their marketplace "bait", there will come a time where this path will have a level of diminishing returns. As their competitors, offer lower rates in soft seasons, more dedicated CCL customers will be tempted to "jump ship" and try other options. Once they do, they will find that the more spartan confines and features of Carnival ships are no longer the "value" they once were.

[TPFKAH]

I think we often get caught up in overall ship size and seem to equate that with the word "innovative".

 

By definition innovative is to make changes in something established, especially by introducing new methods, ideas, or products. This has and continues to be done on all new builds by the major cruise brands, they just do it to different degrees but they all do it. It is clear that CCL, RCL, and NCL have different philosophies in terms of shipbuilding. The best word to describe Carnivals new building strategy would be conservative; meaning that the size and what is offered on board their new builds change but not drastically. Carnival also places emphasis on upgrading older ships, and their 2.0 initiative has been met with high marks. Whereas RCL and NCL have obviously gone in the opposite direction which isn't necessarily a bad thing but they may begin to create an unattainable expectation where every new ship has to be completely different and more "innovative" than the last; and I think that we are beginning to see this with the Quantum class.

 

Excellent posts Tapo.

 

Sorry. Must disagree.

 

Jumping from the Tropical to the Holiday to the Fantasy to the Destiny to athe Spirit classes, it took that last class to kind of seeing something new.

 

And then continuing with the Conquest class, it just got boring.

 

Taking away or branding things and calling it 2.0 just was an insult.

 

Now, more naming like American Feast and turning the dining rooms into lido type bistros just pushed them off the cliff.