No more balcony smoking on Carnival

[BaseballMomof4]

[quote name='KateQ22003']Is there going to be a bus parked on the next balcony shooting exhaust my way?[/QUOTE]

Bet you drive behind one at least once a day without a second thought. Do you believe that thick black smoke out of the smokestack is "green"? Ever sit by a roaring fire in the fireplace or while camping? Ever inhale diesel exhaust?

All of the above have the same carcinogenic effect.

Not asking to smoke all over the ship. Not that selfish. Just want to go out on the balcony I paid for once or twice a day. And am more than willing to be considerate of my neighbors.

[brianosaur]

[quote name='gemsm']When you can provide 100% proof that my smoking affects others (good luck with that) then we can discuss the issue. [/quote]

Are you serious? Perhaps the health issue is debatable, but odors and smoke/gas vapor that are unwanted stimuli upon another person do not need to be proven. They are experienced and proof isnt required. Its a factual truth that I encounter second hand smoke via my senses.

If I blast music at 120 dB while flashing a strobe light in your eyes, do I need to prove that there would be an effect on the environment you are in?

The affect is perceptual and "proof" is irrelevant.

Prove to me you're in pain when you drop a hammer on your toe.

For some the perception of unwanted smoke/odor stimuli is uncomfortable and for others it is not. The uncomfortableness is subjective and, again, does not require proof.

That is why there is a discussion about this issue. Edited July 10, 2014 by brianosaur

[BaseballMomof4]

[quote name='ImNotSteven']Because your 'choice' kills other people.[/QUOTE]

Depends on whose study you want to believe and I am not going to get dragged back into that debate because it is a circle. For every study you quote that supports your point of view, there will always be a study that supports the opposing point of view.

The difference here is this. If you HATE smoke that much, why don't you cruise Celebrity? Royal Caribbean? Princess? Carnival? And the multitude of other options that you have?

To try to take away [B]every[/B] option for those who do not share your views is pretty excessive don't you think? And what is to stop that table from being turned on you someday? Complete exclusion of a faction of the population no matter how big or how small should be disturbing on any level.

[Cruisin thru life]

[quote name='KateQ22003']And what happens if a non-smoker is looking for a balcony room and the only rooms left are in the middle of the smoking section? What do you do then?[/QUOTE]

I would wager that would not be an issue. With the very limited smoking areas in the public portion of the ship and cabins, most smokers would be booking balcony cabins. My guess would be the smoking cabins would fill quicker than the nonsmoking.

[SissasMomE]

[quote name='gemsm']Sorry to hear that but you still weren't allergic to smoke. People may be allergic to the ingredients in cigarettes causing the smoke though. Most people who claim they are "allergic to smoke" also say they have no problems being around a campfire.[/QUOTE]

I do have a problem being around a campfire. Luckily, a campfire isn't toxic, but it still gives me a headache if the smoke is blowing in my face.

[ImNotSteven]

[quote name='BaseballMomof4']Depends on whose study you want to believe and I am not going to get dragged back into that debate because it is a circle. For every study you quote that supports your point of view, there will always be a study that supports the opposing point of view.

The difference here is this. If you HATE smoke that much, why don't you cruise Celebrity? Royal Caribbean? Princess? Carnival? And the multitude of other options that you have?

To try to take away [B]every[/B] option for those who do not share your views is pretty excessive don't you think? And what is to stop that table from being turned on you someday? Complete exclusion of a faction of the population no matter how big or how small should be disturbing on any level.[/quote]

It does not depend on anything. You can find an 'expert' that says OJ was innocent... :) Personally I could not care less what those who choose to smoke do or how quickly they commit suicide, go for it. No one is taking awya EVERY option for smokers. One cruise line simply elected to ban smoking form balconies. Tables turned. if a cruise line says I can't drink soft drinks on board any more, I'll just find some other way to quench my thirst. I'll drink my soft drinks in port when I am off the ship. I do agree with someone who posted earlier that some day all cruise lines will be smoke free. It is just something that will eventually happen. Lastly no one is excluding anyone form anything. Everyone is welcome to cruise on any cruise line they choose.

[BaseballMomof4]

[quote name='SissasMomE']I do have a problem being around a campfire. Luckily, a campfire isn't toxic, but it still gives me a headache if the smoke is blowing in my face.[/QUOTE]

Has a smoker ever leaned around the partition and blown smoke in your face? I sure wouldn't! :eek:

[BaseballMomof4]

[quote name='ImNotSteven']It does not depend on anything. You can find an 'expert' that says OJ was innocent... :) Personally I could not care less what those who choose to smoke do or how quickly they commit suicide, go for it. No one is taking awya EVERY option for smokers. One cruise line simply elected to ban smoking form balconies. Tables turned. if a cruise line says I can't drink soft drinks on board any more, I'll just find some other way to quench my thirst. I'll drink my soft drinks in port when I am off the ship. I do agree with someone who posted earlier that some day all cruise lines will be smoke free. It is just something that will eventually happen. Lastly no one is excluding anyone form anything. Everyone is welcome to cruise on any cruise line they choose.[/QUOTE]

So then if you pay for a balcony with a particular purpose and then the cruise line locks the door on you for the entire cruise that's good by you?

I pay for a balcony to enjoy my privacy outside and yes, I smoke. I can get a pretty view through a window. Currently there are 2 cruise lines willing to accommodate me, and I am not old enough for one of them.

There are multiple cruise lines willing to accommodate you as a non-smoker.

So to be clear, until there is not one cruise line willing to accommodate me you will not be happy, correct?

[BaseballMomof4]

[quote name='Cruisin thru life']I would wager that would not be an issue. With the very limited smoking areas in the public portion of the ship and cabins, most smokers would be booking balcony cabins. My guess would be the smoking cabins would fill quicker than the nonsmoking.[/QUOTE]

I believe you would be correct.

[Fishbait17]

I find it a very interesting observation that non-smokers go completely crazy about the smoke coming from a single cigarette maybe 10 feet away in a stiff outdoor wind, but don't even consider the fact that their own travel on a cruise ship itself releases and exposes them to much, much more in the way of particulate carcinogens.. They also likely buy items brought to them locally from a distance by diesel transportation, exposing millions to carcinogens, and never even consider what they are doing themselves harmful to others. They might burn a fire in their fireplace during the winter, use a particularly smokey heating fuel, fly on airplanes or drive diesel (and non-diesel) automobiles instead if walking or biking, etc etc etc. I'm not pointing fingers, everyone pollutes, everyone.. People make choices every single day as to how much they contribute to the world's airborne carcinogen count - what makes someone who smokes cigarettes but bikes around to work and play and worse than someone who drives their car to drop their kids at school or to the grocery store? Not trying to pick a fight, just trying to point out that cigarette smokers are an obvious target, yet cruisers themselves feel guilt-free about their choices.

I'm not a scientist by any means, so even though I've tried to understand what I'm reading and seeing in studies, I have no ideas exactly what they mean. There are strong campaigns to keep cruise ships from home porting in cities like Savannah and Charleston, etc, based on particulate matter exhausted from them, so the must be something to it... And we know that car and plane emissions, while better than they were historically, spew carcinogens into the air. But people who fly or drive to get on a cruise ship are responsible for their own amounts of airborne carcinogens and turn a blind eye to it.. Here are a few articles I found about both outdoor SHS [url]http://tobaccosmoke.exposurescience.org/system/files/Klepeis_OTS_Preprint.pdf[/url]
plus a page showing recorded particulate matter from the NCL Gem in NY harbor [url]http://aviewfromthehook.blogspot.com/2013/12/friends-of-earth-dangerous-levels-of.html[/url] (watch the embedded video for recorded levels)

Maybe we have a scientist among us who can interpret the actual studies for us.

Everyone in life has both issues and rights when it comes to choices of all kinds that affect others. Until we outlaw smoking, and Diesel engines, and peanuts, and perfumes, and everything else that might cause another harm, we all simply need to learn to live with each other.. It's a cheap shot to single out the easy target and take no responsibility for your own affect on others.

Robin Edited July 10, 2014 by Fishbait17

[gemsm]

[quote name='halos']There is more to a cruise line that it's smoking policies. CCL/NCL=apples/oranges[/QUOTE]

That is why I think Carnival is going to be hardest hit by this policy change. Princess and Celbrity were sort of a niche lines when they implemented this policy. RCI was the first mass-market to implement this policy and they had major short-term backlash and the long-term jury is still out as their policy only went into effect on Jan 1 of this year (though I have read more complaints about smoky casino).

Carnival does have an apples/oranges market with NCL. I think many more will jump from CCL to NCL then vice-versa. The NCLers who want less smoking are more likely to jump to RCI

[gemsm]

[quote name='rhfish3']All you need to do is to go to evidenced based medical sites such as CINAHL and you will find valid up to date PROOF I am a cardiology nurse practitioner and see it daily. So please get your facts together[/QUOTE]

All you have to do is go to evidenced based medical sites such as Harvard Medical School which refutes your study...Go back to the damn CCL board and quit trying to start an argument with me AGAIN about this. Its not going to happen regardless of what your damn profession is. You never went to medical school and aren't a medical researcher.

[mpk218]

I have the solution . This is a no brainer . The Non-smoking people will love this idea...
Since the general consensus is a ratio percentage of 80/20 non-smokers to smokers.
Lets make 20 % of the ship smoker friendly .. Nothing could be more fair , Right? :eek:

What say you Non-smokers ?????


wait for it , wait for it ...

[Daghis]

[quote name='BaseballMomof4']Particularly since NCL stock is rising while CCL and RCL are falling ;)[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure where you get this impression. Over the past year, RCL stock has been on the rise (up 57%), while both NCLH and CCL are pretty close to even (up 3-4%).

[img]http://boards.cruisecritic.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=318838&stc=1&d=1405010422[/img]

[brianosaur]

[quote name='Fishbait17'].. but don't even consider the fact that their own travel on a cruise ship itself releases and exposes them to much, much more in the way of particulate carcinogens..
[/quote]

For me its not really about the hazardous affect on my health, which I'm sure is minimal in the short term.

Its about the foul odor. I find the stench nauseating.
If I cant escape from it, it affects me.

...Like going into a public bathroom at a burrito festival when there is no other option.

Diesel engines? Hopefully they dont linger for 10-15 mins.
Peanuts? Dont smell.
Perfume? ...yeah, just as nasty when overloaded. Edited July 10, 2014 by brianosaur

[CasinoCruzGirl]

[quote name='Fishbait17']I find it a very interesting observation that non-smokers go completely crazy about the smoke coming from a single cigarette maybe 10 feet away in a stiff outdoor wind, but don't even consider the fact that their own travel on a cruise ship itself releases and exposes them to much, much more in the way of particulate carcinogens.. They also likely buy items brought to them locally from a distance by diesel transportation, exposing millions to carcinogens, and never even consider what they are doing themselves harmful to others. They might burn a fire in their fireplace during the winter, use a particularly smokey heating fuel, fly on airplanes or drive diesel (and non-diesel) automobiles instead if walking or biking, etc etc etc. I'm not pointing fingers, everyone pollutes, everyone.. People make choices every single day as to how much they contribute to the world's airborne carcinogen count - what makes someone who smokes cigarettes but bikes around to work and play and worse than someone who drives their car to drop their kids at school or to the grocery store? Not trying to pick a fight, just trying to point out that cigarette smokers are an obvious target, yet cruisers themselves feel guilt-free about their choices.



I'm not a scientist by any means, so even though I've tried to understand what I'm reading and seeing in studies, I have no ideas exactly what they mean. There are strong campaigns to keep cruise ships from home porting in cities like Savannah and Charleston, etc, based on particulate matter exhausted from them, so the must be something to it... And we know that car and plane emissions, while better than they were historically, spew carcinogens into the air. But people who fly or drive to get on a cruise ship are responsible for their own amounts of airborne carcinogens and turn a blind eye to it.. Here are a few articles I found about both outdoor SHS [url]http://tobaccosmoke.exposurescience.org/system/files/Klepeis_OTS_Preprint.pdf[/url]
plus a page showing recorded particulate matter from the NCL Gem in NY harbor [url]http://aviewfromthehook.blogspot.com/2013/12/friends-of-earth-dangerous-levels-of.html[/url] (watch the embedded video for recorded levels)

Maybe we have a scientist among us who can interpret the actual studies for us.

Everyone in life has both issues and rights when it comes to choices of all kinds that affect others. Until we outlaw smoking, and Diesel engines, and peanuts, and perfumes, and everything else that might cause another harm, we all simply need to learn to live with each other.. It's a cheap shot to single out the easy target and take no responsibility for your own affect on others.

Robin[/QUOTE]


Love you Robyn.

[KateQ22003]

[quote name='BaseballMomof4']Bet you drive behind one at least once a day without a second thought. Do you believe that thick black smoke out of the smokestack is "green"? Ever sit by a roaring fire in the fireplace or while camping? Ever inhale diesel exhaust?

All of the above have the same carcinogenic effect.

Not asking to smoke all over the ship. Not that selfish. Just want to go out on the balcony I paid for once or twice a day. And am more than willing to be considerate of my neighbors.[/quote]

Actually I don't, because I live in a rural area. No smokestacks around here either. I paid for my balcony too; your right to smoke on yours doesn't trump my right to breathe on mine.

[SissasMomE]

[quote name='KateQ22003']Maybe because non-smokers have a right to breathe clean air?[/QUOTE]

It's only a matter of time.

[Fishbait17]

[quote name='brianosaur']For me its not really about the hazardous affect on my health, which I'm sure is minimal in the short term.

Its about the foul odor. I find the stench nauseating.
If I cant escape from it, it affects me.

...Like going into a public bathroom at a burrito festival when there is no other option.

Diesel engines? Hopefully they dont linger for 10-15 mins.
Peanuts? Dont smell.
Perfume? ...yeah, just as nasty when overloaded.[/QUOTE]

Ok, I get it, it's just about the smell for you. But inhaling particulate from nearby peanuts can kill some people. There are ingredients in perfumes that cause serious (epinephrine needed) allergic reactions to some. And the video in my link shows that the Gem spews HUGE amounts of particulate (soot) into the air hundreds of yards away. So, you don't want to "smell" it - but other people have to "smell" your choices every single day. (Ps, you're sailing directly under that smokestack for your entire cruise).

Robin Edited July 10, 2014 by Fishbait17

[spidybabe]

Well said Robin(Fishbait)
If you are boarding a ship in NY, and stay outside more than 10 seconds,[B] worse[/B] than any second hand smoke. Im not a smoker, but hate how everybody bashes smokers. Nobody realizes how much they contribuite daily to polluting the earth with everyday activities. In my neighborhood NOBODY walks to school anymore...even if it is two blocks away, get in the car!!
Everybody has rights, and as long as it isn't illegal then....leave them alone.
Again I feel one side of the ship, with certain floors designated for smokers would work. My dh would love to smoke his cigar on the balcony, but that is another issue (and no he never would)
Safe sailing

[BaseballMomof4]

[quote name='brianosaur']For me its not really about the hazardous affect on my health, which I'm sure is minimal in the short term.

Its about the foul odor. I find the stench nauseating.
If I cant escape from it, it affects me.

...Like going into a public bathroom at a burrito festival when there is no other option.

Diesel engines? Hopefully they dont linger for 10-15 mins.
Peanuts? Dont smell.
Perfume? ...yeah, just as nasty when overloaded.[/QUOTE]

The smell from a cigarette doesn't last 10-15 minutes either.

[ImNotSteven]

[quote name='KateQ22003']Actually I don't, because I live in a rural area. No smokestacks around here either. I paid for my balcony too; your right to smoke on yours doesn't trump my right to breathe on mine.[/quote]


As someone pointed out earlier there is no [COLOR=Red]right[/COLOR] to smoke. That term gets tossed around as if it had no specific meaning when it does.

[SissasMomE]

[quote name='BaseballMomof4']Has a smoker ever leaned around the partition and blown smoke in your face? I sure wouldn't! :eek:[/QUOTE]

Now that would be a very big mistake on their part. Unfortunately, the smoke and the horrible smell has wafted over to our balcony. As I said, I think 3 times now, we never really had an issue butfor our one Carnival cruise. Edited July 10, 2014 by SissasMomE

[cruiseman_tx]

[quote name='mpk218']For both sides of the battle. If you want to have an impact , dont waste your time here trying to convince the world.. Email NCL corporate and let them know.
They are keeping score . ;)[/QUOTE]

Agreed...For those jumping from CCL to NCL because of the balcony smoking issue, send an e-mail after you book your cruise to let the corporate types know why they gained a new customer. In spite of the size of this site, CC is not the final, absolute disseminator of cruisers opinions, so speak up where it really counts.

[gemsm]

[quote name='Fishbait17']I find it a very interesting observation that non-smokers go completely crazy about the smoke coming from a single cigarette maybe 10 feet away in a stiff outdoor wind, but don't even consider the fact that their own travel on a cruise ship itself releases and exposes them to much, much more in the way of particulate carcinogens.. They also likely buy items brought to them locally from a distance by diesel transportation, exposing millions to carcinogens, and never even consider what they are doing themselves harmful to others. They might burn a fire in their fireplace during the winter, use a particularly smokey heating fuel, fly on airplanes or drive diesel (and non-diesel) automobiles instead if walking or biking, etc etc etc. I'm not pointing fingers, everyone pollutes, everyone.. People make choices every single day as to how much they contribute to the world's airborne carcinogen count - what makes someone who smokes cigarettes but bikes around to work and play and worse than someone who drives their car to drop their kids at school or to the grocery store? Not trying to pick a fight, just trying to point out that cigarette smokers are an obvious target, yet cruisers themselves feel guilt-free about their choices.

I'm not a scientist by any means, so even though I've tried to understand what I'm reading and seeing in studies, I have no ideas exactly what they mean. There are strong campaigns to keep cruise ships from home porting in cities like Savannah and Charleston, etc, based on particulate matter exhausted from them, so the must be something to it... And we know that car and plane emissions, while better than they were historically, spew carcinogens into the air. But people who fly or drive to get on a cruise ship are responsible for their own amounts of airborne carcinogens and turn a blind eye to it.. Here are a few articles I found about both outdoor SHS [url]http://tobaccosmoke.exposurescience.org/system/files/Klepeis_OTS_Preprint.pdf[/url]
plus a page showing recorded particulate matter from the NCL Gem in NY harbor [url]http://aviewfromthehook.blogspot.com/2013/12/friends-of-earth-dangerous-levels-of.html[/url] (watch the embedded video for recorded levels)

Maybe we have a scientist among us who can interpret the actual studies for us.

Everyone in life has both issues and rights when it comes to choices of all kinds that affect others. Until we outlaw smoking, and Diesel engines, and peanuts, and perfumes, and everything else that might cause another harm, we all simply need to learn to live with each other.. It's a cheap shot to single out the easy target and take no responsibility for your own affect on others.

Robin[/QUOTE]

Alrighty...This post is so perfect after reading it I really think all that should be said on this subject on both sides of the debate have just been covered. I'm done with this one...Peace Out and EXCELLENT POST!!!!