Paying for Zumba; no way

[miched]

 

Wait, they do not have a team anymore, it down to 2 people :eek:

 

We were on the Eclipse and the activity list was not very crowded. It was doubled spaced and most of the so called activities were promoting a sale, a infocommercial that was disguised as a seminar or something that had a fee. very little involved the CD or his staff.

 

Happy cruising 🌊🚢🇺🇸🌞

[jkgourmet]

So Canyon Ranch owns 'Zumba' but you'd think the activities staff could still run a 'fit' class out on the pool deck.

 

They really are apples and oranges.

 

On our December 2014 cruise on the infinity, that is EXACTLY what happened. Every one of the 16 days, canceled only because of poor weather.

 

Each day the group got smaller and smaller. What started as 40-45 people ended as 4 people. And the activity instructor was pleasant and fun - so much so we enjoyed watching it.

[Christine Frances]

It's included in my gym membership. No extra cost for Zumba

 

Mine as well but for someone that wants to drop in for only a few classes still has to pay. Maybe Canyon Ranch should sell "packages" in that would give you better pricing on massages, Zumba, spin classes etc - maybe a 10-20% discount or something?

[davekathy]

IMO having to pay to use the spin bikes is another rip off. I have one at home and I would like to use the ones on the ship but I don't want to pay. Oh well their toys. I'll use all the other equipment in the gym that I've already paid for in the cost of the Cruise.

[cle-guy]

IMO having to pay to use the spin bikes is another rip off. I have one at home and I would like to use the ones on the ship but I don't want to pay. Oh well their toys. I'll use all the other equipment in the gym that I've already paid for in the cost of the Cruise.

 

Do they charge all the time for spin bikes?

 

I was just looking at the menu of services, and spin classes and yoga were among the "complimentary items" listed in it (Zumba was not listed as complimentary). There was a notation that some classes may be for fee, but I was led to believe the spin bikes had lots of open "free" times available.

 

I'm referring to page 32 of the menu of services

[davekathy]

Do they charge all the time for spin bikes?

 

I was just looking at the menu of services, and spin classes and yoga were among the "complimentary items" listed in it (Zumba was not listed as complimentary). There was a notation that some classes may be for fee, but I was led to believe the spin bikes had lots of open "free" times available.

 

I'm referring to page 32 of the menu of services

 

The ships I've been on the bikes when not in use were either tethered together or are located in a roped off area. On our 2014 Summit Cruise I asked (about 3:30 PM) about the use of the bikes and was told they were only for the spin bike classes at a cost. I didn't ask the about the price.

Edited January 3, 2015 by davekathy

[miataman19]

It's all about the $$$ :rolleyes:. I guess I'll just ride my spin bike right to the bar and pass right by the Zumba class...oh well, at least I didn't have to pay for my beverage package...:D

[davekathy]

It's all about the $$$ :rolleyes:. I guess I'll just ride my spin bike right to the bar and pass right by the Zumba class...oh well, at least I didn't have to pay for my beverage package...:D

 

I'll drink to that.

[villauk]

Is Zumba free while on land? I always thought there was some sort of charge/royalty fee paid out to them by businesses that offer the service.

 

You could make the same comparison regarding the theatre, shows, presentation talks, swimming pools, table tennis, basketball courts, kids clubs etc.; all of these facilities you pay for on land. I presume most are trying to point out that little by little free items are now a charged for service ;). Strange as they seem to be heavily promoting AI :rolleyes:!

[cle-guy]

You could make the same comparison regarding the theatre, shows, presentation talks, swimming pools, table tennis, basketball courts, kids clubs etc.; all of these facilities you pay for on land. I presume most are trying to point out that little by little free items are now a charged for service ;). Strange as they seem to be heavily promoting AI :rolleyes:!

 

Yup, it's all about tradeoffs. Nothing is free, take away free zumba, offer free gratuities, drinks and OBC, which by the way, can be used to pay for that Zumba!

[phoenix_dream]

Whether cruise prices have or have not risen with the rate of inflation depends on which points from which you are monitoring. From 20 years ago? No, but then there are many reasons for that not the least of which is that perhaps 20 years ago there were so many fewer options prices were high because they could be. From two or three years ago? Absolutely they have risen far beyond inflation, at least the ones I have cruised or looked into.

 

I just strongly disagree that all these 'pay-to-play' options are keeping cruise prices down. If only that were true. They are primarily raising stock prices higher, period. It is of course not only cruises. Look at the airlines right now. They used higher fuel prices as a reason (some say excuse) to sky-rocket prices, especially when you consider necessary add-ons like baggage. Now that fuel prices have dropped like a stone, I have yet to see airline prices dropping at all, let alone by the percentages they rose. I know companies are in business to make a profit, etc., etc.. But I also know that they will charge whatever the market will bear for the highest profits they can get. As consumers our only option is to change our buying habits. Hate the charge for Zumba classes? Stop going to them. That is the only thing that will change that paradigm.

[davekathy]

Do they charge all the time for spin bikes?

 

I was just looking at the menu of services, and spin classes and yoga were among the "complimentary items" listed in it (Zumba was not listed as complimentary). There was a notation that some classes may be for fee, but I was led to believe the spin bikes had lots of open "free" times available.

 

I'm referring to page 32 of the menu of services

 

Bottom of page 32 of the Cannon ranch menu you provided..."Please note that select classes require a registration fee".

[cle-guy]

Whether cruise prices have or have not risen with the rate of inflation depends on which points from which you are monitoring. From 20 years ago? No, but then there are many reasons for that not the least of which is that perhaps 20 years ago there were so many fewer options prices were high because they could be. From two or three years ago? Absolutely they have risen far beyond inflation, at least the ones I have cruised or looked into.

 

I just strongly disagree that all these 'pay-to-play' options are keeping cruise prices down. If only that were true. They are primarily raising stock prices higher, period. It is of course not only cruises. Look at the airlines right now. They used higher fuel prices as a reason (some say excuse) to sky-rocket prices, especially when you consider necessary add-ons like baggage. Now that fuel prices have dropped like a stone, I have yet to see airline prices dropping at all, let alone by the percentages they rose. I know companies are in business to make a profit, etc., etc.. But I also know that they will charge whatever the market will bear for the highest profits they can get. As consumers our only option is to change our buying habits. Hate the charge for Zumba classes? Stop going to them. That is the only thing that will change that paradigm.

 

This chart is an overall average of all celebrity cruise ships and their cabin fares over time. It's relatively flat,, had a marked increase 2012-2013, and a fall 2013-2014.

 

Sure some cruises are higher than others, its all so viable as to days out from cruise, what perks are included a that time, are we comparing exact itinerary and number of days to exact week last year etc. Lots of variables can let one say my cruise is so expensive versus last year, and alternately one can find bargains out there versus prior years. So looking at a fully averaged out graph of fares, they are trending up, but are about the same as 2 years past still, but for suites, obviously due to Suite perks rolling out next year.

 

As to Airlines, many operated at losses for so long, now they have some relief to make up for those long term losses is all, and why they aren't lowering airfares due to lower fuel. Also, they buy fuel far (sometimes years) in advance, so many may not yet be realizing the unplanned lower costs to the degree many may expect. Though I just booked a United flight direct from Cleveland to san juan on Jan 1 for Jan 24 departure, for just over $300. That seems like a bargain to me. CLE to Newark can often be $900 or the 45 minute flight time. Again, supply and demand at work, many variables.

 

[dhill]

You pay for restaurants on land too. Don't see the point of your post. There's a ton of things that are included in your cruise fare, Zumba was one of them. This is no different than suddenly charging for escargot in the MDR.

 

You are also paying for every restaurants on the ship be it the buffet or whatever. nothing on the ship is actually free there are just extra charges for certain things;)

[NLH Arizona]

Bottom of page 32 of the Cannon ranch menu you provided..."Please note that select classes require a registration fee".

Can't you use the spin bikes when there is not a class in session?

[monicajay]

Can't you use the spin bikes when there is not a class in session?

 

No, not the spin bikes. There are some other exercise bikes you can use but there are only a few of them on each ship.

[phoenix_dream]

This chart is an overall average of all celebrity cruise ships and their cabin fares over time. It's relatively flat,, had a marked increase 2012-2013, and a fall 2013-2014.

 

Sure some cruises are higher than others, its all so viable as to days out from cruise, what perks are included a that time, are we comparing exact itinerary and number of days to exact week last year etc. Lots of variables can let one say my cruise is so expensive versus last year, and alternately one can find bargains out there versus prior years. So looking at a fully averaged out graph of fares, they are trending up, but are about the same as 2 years past still, but for suites, obviously due to Suite perks rolling out next year.

 

As to Airlines, many operated at losses for so long, now they have some relief to make up for those long term losses is all, and why they aren't lowering airfares due to lower fuel. Also, they buy fuel far (sometimes years) in advance, so many may not yet be realizing the unplanned lower costs to the degree many may expect. Though I just booked a United flight direct from Cleveland to san juan on Jan 1 for Jan 24 departure, for just over $300. That seems like a bargain to me. CLE to Newark can often be $900 or the 45 minute flight time. Again, supply and demand at work, many variables.

 

 

Your chart is interesting. It certainly does not track with the cruises I have been on, or have considered. But then my sample size has been strictly the Caribbean and Alaska so perhaps that skews my perception.

 

I would add, though, about the airlines, that when fuel costs rose they immediately jacked up prices considerably and used the fuel costs as the reason time and again. It was in the news regularly. I see nothing in the news now about prices leveling out due to reduced fuel costs. I understand your point about buying far ahead, but then their reason to raise them rapidly to coincide with oil costs rapid rise was deceptive at best. They can't have it both ways. Are there occasional bargain fares? I'm sure there are. But overall I have seen prices on my flights about 1/3 higher than a few years ago, before any 'extras' are factored in. I fly between 7 and 10 round trips each year, currently for personal use only, and can only comment on those. When one adds in the 'optional' costs for luggage or the attempt at some kind of leg room, then the prices are higher still.

[cle-guy]

Your chart is interesting. It certainly does not track with the cruises I have been on, or have considered. But then my sample size has been strictly the Caribbean and Alaska so perhaps that skews my perception.

 

I would add, though, about the airlines, that when fuel costs rose they immediately jacked up prices considerably and used the fuel costs as the reason time and again. It was in the news regularly. I see nothing in the news now about prices leveling out due to reduced fuel costs. I understand your point about buying far ahead, but then their reason to raise them rapidly to coincide with oil costs rapid rise was deceptive at best. They can't have it both ways. Are there occasional bargain fares? I'm sure there are. But overall I have seen prices on my flights about 1/3 higher than a few years ago, before any 'extras' are factored in. I fly between 7 and 10 round trips each year, currently for personal use only, and can only comment on those. When one adds in the 'optional' costs for luggage or the attempt at some kind of leg room, then the prices are higher still.

 

Airlines that operated at a loss for 5 years, need 5 years of same profits to get to even. They've had 6 months of good times to start making up for those losses, most of them. And several are just out of business these days. So they aren;t having it both ways, they are recovering prior losses now, and the general condenses is this cheap fuel is going to last only until spring or summer or so.

 

There was a special on one of the news channels a few years back, that tracked an American Airlines flight, all said and done the flight, nearly full, made a profit of like $112. Yes one hundred twelve dollars. if it had been short 1 more passenger, it would have been a loss. Same special talked about how removing a single olive from every salad saved hundreds of thousands of dollars, not painting aircraft having them aluminum only, saved tonees of paint weight and fuel. removing extra magazines from seatback pockets lightened the load. They mentioned how chaining how they sliced limes for drinks gave them 2 more lime slices per lime and saved money. They are now going to iPads to remove the paper manuals in cockpits, for similar savings. We see similarities on cruises, no chocolates, ice on request etc...

 

We take for granted the convenience and value of airline travel these days versus what it really costs to make it happen. I'm in these forums preaching the similar thing to cruisers, we have good thing going, we have to roll with the reductions and price changes, or this method of vacationing would be doomed. Be happy they are bobbing and weaving and making minor adjustment daily, weekly, monthly and annually as needed to ensure the profitability, which also ensures the safety, of the lines.

Edited January 3, 2015 by cle-guy

[RDC1]

Airlines that operated at a loss for 5 years, need 5 years of same profits to get to even. They've had 6 months of good times to start making up for those losses, most of them. And several are just out of business these days. So they aren;t having it both ways, they are recovering prior losses now, and the general condenses is this cheap fuel is going to last only until spring or summer or so.

 

There was a special on one of the news channels a few years back, that tracked an American Airlines flight, all said and done the flight, nearly full, made a profit of like $112. Yes one hundred twelve dollars. if it had been short 1 more passenger, it would have been a loss. Same special talked about how removing a single olive from every salad saved hundreds of thousands of dollars, not painting aircraft having them aluminum only, saved tonees of paint weight and fuel. removing extra magazines from seatback pockets lightened the load. They mentioned how chaining how they sliced limes for drinks gave them 2 more lime slices per lime and saved money. They are now going to iPads to remove the paper manuals in cockpits, for similar savings. We see similarities on cruises, no chocolates, ice on request etc...

 

We take for granted the convenience and value of airline travel these days versus what it really costs to make it happen. I'm in these forums preaching the similar thing to cruisers, we have good thing going, we have to roll with the reductions and price changes, or this method of vacationing would be doomed. Be happy they are bobbing and weaving and making minor adjustment daily, weekly, monthly and annually as needed to ensure the profitability, which also ensures the safety, of the lines.

 

Not quite. If you look at the airlines filings and financial statements UAL, Delta have shown annual profits since at least 2009 (I only looked back to 2009). Southwest far longer then that. AAL is the only of the major airlines in the US to show losses since 2009. Even there they showed a profit in 2013. That is using the status prior to the recent takeover by US Air (the combined company kept the American name).

Edited January 3, 2015 by RDC1

[cle-guy]

Not quite. If you look at the airlines filings and financial statements UAL, Delta have shown annual profits since at least 2009 (I only looked back to 2009). Southwest far longer then that. AAL is the only of the major airlines in the US to show losses since 2009. Even there they showed a profit in 2013. That is using the status prior to the recent takeover by US Air (the combined company kept the American name).

 

I'll admit I haven't fully researched, what about Northwest, Continental and US air results? AirTran? Regional carries no longer with us etc.... Look at loss of flights in Memphis, Cincinnati, and most recently United removing over 60% of our Cleveland flights, closing an entire terminal....and leaving their remaining one a ghost town most times of the day.

 

My point is, there were long term losses for many, that need made up with long-term profits. We are seeing short term (within last 2 - 3 years) profits.

 

I found this chart that shows the airlines huge losses 2001-2005, good profits 2006-2007, huge losses 2008, small loss 2009, small profit 2010, and will take your word about profitability since then.

 

All that said and done, they are likely just nearing overall profitability making up for those big losses with recent successes.

 

United Airlines' current Retained Earnings is an overall loss of $3,911,000,000!

 

American Airlines' current retained earnings is an overall loss of $9,086,000,000!

Edited January 3, 2015 by cle-guy

[shipshape sam]

Your chart is interesting. It certainly does not track with the cruises I have been on, or have considered. But then my sample size has been strictly the Caribbean and Alaska so perhaps that skews my perception.

 

I would add, though, about the airlines, that when fuel costs rose they immediately jacked up prices considerably and used the fuel costs as the reason time and again. It was in the news regularly. I see nothing in the news now about prices leveling out due to reduced fuel costs. I understand your point about buying far ahead, but then their reason to raise them rapidly to coincide with oil costs rapid rise was deceptive at best. They can't have it both ways. Are there occasional bargain fares? I'm sure there are. But overall I have seen prices on my flights about 1/3 higher than a few years ago, before any 'extras' are factored in. I fly between 7 and 10 round trips each year, currently for personal use only, and can only comment on those. When one adds in the 'optional' costs for luggage or the attempt at some kind of leg room, then the prices are higher still.

 

I too have seen cruises I have sailed in past have very large price increases over the last 4-5 years. Looking at the chart, for example the balcony line goes from 175 (my guess) to 250 (my guess) over a 4 year period. 75/175 = 43% or 10% plus on average per year. For sure that is just a mathematical calculation and there could have been a 15% increase in the value proposition and (if that were the case) prices could be argued to have dropped.

 

For me, the value proposition has not increased higher than the price increase, thus I see a pure price increase for the same/similar product/service. Not sure that is bad, but did enjoy pricing in the mid to late 2000's. Did a lot of sailing then.

Edited January 3, 2015 by shipshape sam

[richsea]

 

Nothing is static in today's world.

 

Crusie fares remain static ONLY because they have to remove goods & services and streamline operations along the way. That's the point of my post. So let's bring Zumba back, and add $10 per day per passenger to the cabin fares. let's bring back chocolates on pillows nightly, add another 50 cents per PAX/day. Lets add lobster to the nightly menu and add $10 per pax/day. Bring back gloved writers, add another $5 per pax per day.....

 

You are right; nothing remains static in today's world. However, cruise fares are not static, however, the cuts keep coming. (Really, chocolates @ .50 for each passenger?)If you do not think that in general, Celebrity's cruise fares are even in the same neighborhood as they were just one year ago, let me know where.

[RDC1]

I'll admit I haven't fully researched, what about Northwest, Continental and US air results? AirTran? Regional carries no longer with us etc.... Look at loss of flights in Memphis, Cincinnati, and most recently United removing over 60% of our Cleveland flights, closing an entire terminal....and leaving their remaining one a ghost town most times of the day.

 

My point is, there were long term losses for many, that need made up with long-term profits. We are seeing short term (within last 2 - 3 years) profits.

 

I found this chart that shows the airlines huge losses 2001-2005, good profits 2006-2007, huge losses 2008, small loss 2009, small profit 2010, and will take your word about profitability since then.

 

All that said and done, they are likely just nearing overall profitability making up for those big losses with recent successes.

 

United Airlines' current Retained Earnings is an overall loss of $3,911,000,000!

 

American Airlines' current retained earnings is an overall loss of $9,086,000,000!

 

The 4 I mentioned make up 70% of the US airline market.

 

Northwest was purchased by Delta a few years back (2008), United merged with Continental also in 2008.

 

You had mentioned only being profitable for 6 months, when in reality the airlines have generally been doing pretty well for several years, with the major exception being American due to their labor contracts.

 

The airlines switched to profitability when they started to limit excess capacity, added fees, and stopped trying to go after market share. The recent fuel price changes is just icing on the cake. Of course they have become profitable by reducing what most of us would call customer service, cutting flights, eliminating staff, adding fees, reducing space on the planes, etc.

 

As far as retained earnings go would have to back out all dividends paid since the company started to determine total profitability (for example United paid out 793 million in a special dividend in 2008) , but even with that:

 

Delta's turned positive in 2013.

 

Delta Air Lines Inc's annual retained earnings increased from Dec. 2011 ($-8,398 Mil) to Dec. 2012 ($-7,389 Mil) and increased from Dec. 2012 ($-7,389 Mil) to Dec. 2013 ($3,049 Mil).

 

Southwest Airlines Co's annual retained earnings increased from Dec. 2011 ($5,395 Mil) to Dec. 2012 ($5,768 Mil) and increased from Dec. 2012 ($5,768 Mil) to Dec. 2013 ($6,431 Mil).

 

 

So all in all the airlines are looking pretty well and have for a while. Far better then their historic norm.

[cle-guy]

You are right; nothing remains static in today's world. However, cruise fares are not static, however, the cuts keep coming. (Really, chocolates @ .50 for each passenger?)If you do not think that in general, Celebrity's cruise fares are even in the same neighborhood as they were just one year ago, let me know where.

 

I absilutely do believe cruise fares are generally the same they were just one year ago. I do correct in my mind for value added services like Beverages, gratuities and OBC. That is to say, for a 7 day cruise for 2 in concierge cabin or above booked today, I'd subtract

$686.00 $49.00 x 7 days x 2 people for beverage package

$102.90 Gratuities on Beverage Package

$175.00 Gratuities for 7 days x 2 people @ $12.50/day pp

$200.00 OBC

-----------

$1163.90 total value of incentives

 

from any posted cabin fare, to get to a real cabin fare to compare to a year prior, in which case I'd subtract just $186 + 102.90 from last year 's fare as only 1 perk applied then, in order to go apples to apples.

 

I also believe they change dramatically over time and cover a wide range of pricing from on sale to actual sailing, so making a true apple to apple comparison becomes nearly impossible once market factors and variables come into play.

 

For example, I just booked a PH on Summit later this month for the same fare as CS I have booked in November on Connie.

 

So I think people are seeing marked increases in Concierge and Aqua due to the all-in 123.

 

I think Ocean views see a marked increase as it now includes a perk and didn't in the past.

 

I imagine that Standard verandas may be a relative deal now, as they only get 1 of the 3 perks, but expect their prices will increase, since concierge cabins likely booked up already die to the all-in program. Certainly this put a larger than normal dent in the Concierge cabins this season.

 

Suites are definitely seeing a price hike given the roll out of suite perks, especially the higher categories.

 

I sailed the PH on eclipse this spring for less than the RS was selling for the month before I booked it. Today the Eclipse sailing is selling SKY SUITES for $20,390 for the TA, though they have added 3 days to it. The PH was less than $10k as a solo this spring. The new itinerary for the crossing and multiple ports likely have added to the demand for it. In suites, only Sky's and CS are open. Mind you, no perks apply, though the new ini room will be open for the Sky Suites.

 

I got an aqua class cabin for $1100 total as a solo this spring in May on Summit to Bermuda, they can go for as much as $3500 for the Bermuda cruise.

 

There are good values to be had, with flexibility and hopefulness built onto a plan. Those not willing to run the risk of losing a favorable preferred cabin and location may not be able to do so. These affect the market factors. I generally sail suites, but found a great buy on an inside this fall so grabbed it.

[davekathy]

Can't you use the spin bikes when there is not a class in session?

 

I was told no (2014 Summit Cruise). All spin bikes were pushed together and tethered together with a plastic coated cable. I use the gym every afternoon. No one was ever using the spin bikes when I was in the gym. This was a B2B Cruise.

Edited January 4, 2015 by davekathy