X lie to customers about the overnights

[pistnbroke]

Consider also that in many cases flights have been booked and

prepaid.

We have prepaid flights from the West Coast of Canada to FLL

Would have to find something else for 14 days if we were to cancel.

So they have us over a barrel ,so to speak.

[WpgCruise]

Consider also that in many cases flights have been booked and

prepaid.

We have prepaid flights from the West Coast of Canada to FLL

Would have to find something else for 14 days if we were to cancel.

So they have us over a barrel ,so to speak.

 

Lots of us have a long way to travel to board a cruise, so that argument is true for many of us. Friends we are cruising with on an impacted changed itinerary are from Great Britain.

 

Over a barrel, so to speak. Not by a long shot !!![

 

If we decided not to take the cruise booked with Celebrity, and because we have airfare booked and there is a cost to change it, I'd simply look at the other options.

 

Option: On the day our cruise is leaving from Fort Lauderdale there are 6 ships in port. Perhaps one of the other 5 has an itinerary we would like that would be comparable to the changed Celebrity cruise.

 

Option: Perhaps one of those other 5 cruise ships are sailing on an alternating 7 day itinerary, making a back to back an attractive alternative.

 

Option: Maybe we would use Fort Lauderdale as the start point for a land vacation to someplace in the Caribbean we just "had to" see. We've done that before and lots of flights leave Fort Lauderdale or Miami for the Caribbean every day.

 

Option: Maybe a land vacation in Florida.

 

The point I'm making is that nobody or Company has anyone over a barrel. There are always options, but we have to be interested in considering them.

Edited June 7, 2015 by WpgCruise

[villauk]

Lots of us have a long way to travel to board a cruise, so that argument is true for many of us. Friends we are cruising with on an impacted changed itinerary are from Great Britain.

 

Over a barrel, so to speak. Not by a long shot !!![

 

If we decided not to take the cruise booked with Celebrity, and because we have airfare booked and there is a cost to change it, I'd simply look at the other options.

 

Option: On the day our cruise is leaving from Fort Lauderdale there are 6 ships in port. Perhaps one of the other 5 has an itinerary we would like that would be comparable to the changed Celebrity cruise.

 

Option: Perhaps one of those other 5 cruise ships are sailing on an alternating 7 day itinerary, making a back to back an attractive alternative.

 

Option: Maybe we would use Fort Lauderdale as the start point for a land vacation to someplace in the Caribbean we just "had to" see. We've done that before and lots of flights leave Fort Lauderdale or Miami for the Caribbean every day.

 

Option: Maybe a land vacation in Florida.

 

The point I'm making is that nobody or Company has anyone over a barrel. There are always options, but we have to be interested in considering them.

 

Not if you're the OP, he may not be able to afford to lose those hundreds of $ on his deposit and then take one of your options ;). Moving his booking may also not be an option as some pax are only able to cruise once every couple of years due to finances, holiday schedules etc. Give people the option of cancelling if they so wish - X have made changes to his itinerary and now the reason for those changes, so let the OP decide whether he wants to accept or cancel and receive his money back!

[insidecabin]

Here's a revelation for you.

 

Itinerary and ports can CHANGE at anytime for whatever reason Celebrity chooses to use.

 

It's in your cruise contract.

 

Not UK/EU contracts as this term would be against the laws that apply to package holidays(which cruises are) sold in those regions if there were not the option to cancel with no penalty and compensation for expenses if the changes were major.

 

THis is where the problems start as a single port change is conisdered minor.

Edited June 7, 2015 by insidecabin

[insidecabin]

Thanks Sue.

 

From what you posted the UK contract says the same thing as the U.S. version.

Which would explain why there have yet to be any challenges in the legal system there.

 

The key difference is the right to cancel without penalty for major changes, where there normaly would be cancellation penalties.

 

the issue is that for cruise the definitions boundry of major/minor is not well established and each cruise line uses different examples.

 

There main relevent law in the UK that the cruise lines interpit are the package holiday regulations that cover cruise.

 

eg

Single port change, minor

two port changes, grey area.

two ports to two sea, major.

 

Some other changes are established by how they apply to other package holidays like the departure and delays.

 

the actual regulations are

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/3288/contents/made

 

they cover other things like changes to fares after booking which make things like fuel surcharges very difficult to enforce.

 

 

Celebrity also has this clause.

1.11 Can I make changes to my booking after it has been

confirmed?

Should you wish to make any changes to your confirmed

holiday, you must notify us in writing as soon as possible.

Whilst we will endeavour to assist you, we cannot guarantee

we will be able to meet any such request. For guests wishing

to make a significant amendment to their booking outside of

56 days from departure, such as changing the ship, sail date,

flights or brand, please note that a booking transfer fee is

applicable.

 

So those effected by the itinerary changes but canot cancel without penalty should be able to change their booking to another cruise and in many cases X have been know to wave any change fees.

[wallie5446]

Thanks All for the help understanding the differences tween here and over there:D. But in the end it looks like the way things are written, the Gov is giving more protection to the business than the consumer. Right?

[AtleeH]

Yes, that's what's happening in this case.

 

But in the end it looks like the way things are written, the Gov is giving more protection to the business than the consumer. Right?

[insidecabin]

Consumer protection is not bad just not tested in court for changes like this.

The consensus is one port change is minor and so far no one has challenged this.

 

In the UK the penalties/deposit loss has been to court and a cruise line lost the case as they resold the package and the consumer could prove it so penalties were not enforceable.

[MarkusToe]

Hi there,

 

Apologies, but this cruise was not changed for safety reasons. The change was made to allow for us to provide overnights itineraries.

 

Hi Celebrity

you should advice your customer reps at Germany

 

They told me again in written form: changes are made because of saftey reasons.....and therefore no changes on booking possible.....

 

I can't believe - sorry but that's not a reasonable customer service.....:mad:

 

Next letter X will get is not written by me.., next will come from my lawer

[cle-guy]

Does it really make any difference in the reason of the changes?

 

Is one explanation versus another going to resolve the issue of the changed itineraries or have any material affect on the change? If it was changed for safety, for profits, for marketing purposes, whatever the explanation, does not change the fact that the itinerary has been modified, and X is within their contractual rights to make such changes, a right that we all agree to when making our booking.

 

Getting a lawyer involved, seriously - have you read your contract of carriage? If you find a lawyer to take this case, be forewarned, he's taking your case simply to pad his billings, as there is no possibility you have any standing here.

 

I doubt X or any company has any legal requirement to provide any sort of rationale or explanation when they make such changes, especially since the contract of carriage explicitly states that you are paying to get from point A to pint B, the stops in the middle are not part of the contract and changes are not compensable unless "major changes" are made in the contract language of certain countries, which is further defend as more than 2 stops modified. However USA bookers, do not get this level of protection as european bookers do.

[chamima]

Markus is in Germany.

[keithm]

Does it really make any difference in the reason of the changes?

 

Is one explanation versus another going to resolve the issue of the changed itineraries or have any material affect on the change? If it was changed for safety, for profits, for marketing purposes, whatever the explanation, does not change the fact that the itinerary has been modified, and X is within their contractual rights to make such changes, a right that we all agree to when making our booking.

 

Getting a lawyer involved, seriously - have you read your contract of carriage? If you find a lawyer to take this case, be forewarned, he's taking your case simply to pad his billings, as there is no possibility you have any standing here.

 

I doubt X or any company has any legal requirement to provide any sort of rationale or explanation when they make such changes, especially since the contract of carriage explicitly states that you are paying to get from point A to pint B, the stops in the middle are not part of the contract and changes are not compensable unless "major changes" are made in the contract language of certain countries, which is further defend as more than 2 stops modified. However USA bookers, do not get this level of protection as european bookers do.

It's pretty obvious that some GOOD lawyers wrote the contracts for ALL cruiseline companies. That being said, I'd have preferred a different island over Curacau for the overnight in the 2016 winter trips on the Eclipse.

[AZ Ocean Lover]

I can understand that there could be disappointment for people that have a particular cruise scheduled and a favorite port was eliminated but for all those yet to book it's really not an issue because they can pick or choose a cruise based on the new itinerary.

 

I for one and exciting about the overnights. There have been many times we have commented that we would love to be in a place at night, have a nice dinner out and soak up the local culture. This would actually sway me in selecting a particular cruise.

[RDC1]

Does it really make any difference in the reason of the changes?

 

Is one explanation versus another going to resolve the issue of the changed itineraries or have any material affect on the change? If it was changed for safety, for profits, for marketing purposes, whatever the explanation, does not change the fact that the itinerary has been modified, and X is within their contractual rights to make such changes, a right that we all agree to when making our booking.

 

Getting a lawyer involved, seriously - have you read your contract of carriage? If you find a lawyer to take this case, be forewarned, he's taking your case simply to pad his billings, as there is no possibility you have any standing here.

 

I doubt X or any company has any legal requirement to provide any sort of rationale or explanation when they make such changes, especially since the contract of carriage explicitly states that you are paying to get from point A to pint B, the stops in the middle are not part of the contract and changes are not compensable unless "major changes" are made in the contract language of certain countries, which is further defend as more than 2 stops modified. However USA bookers, do not get this level of protection as european bookers do.

 

Actually it might make substantial difference under European Law. There is substantial difference in how the law addresses the consumer protections based upon the reason for the change. Since these changes are clearly being made so far in advance then the consumer protections come down to the interpretation of significant change and if Celebrities view that a single port does not constitute significant change. A case where the changes are clearly made by the cruise line for competitive reasons is far more likely to find a favorable result for the passengers, then one made for safety reasons. Especially with the cruise line putting out various reasons.

 

The issue is not if Celebrity can make the changes, the issue is that they should allow those passengers that booked such cruises prior to the change to be able to cancel without penalty.

 

Ironic that the consumer protection laws were written with the intent of preventing this kind of situation where the provider changes or fails to deliver the services based upon the "brochure". The law clearly allows for minor changes outside of the providers control. But this is a change that is clearly in their control.

 

This would make for an interesting case in establishing the legal definition of minor vs significant change as far as cruises are concerned which do not really appear to be well defined.

 

This is the paragraph from the UK law that indicates why the spend so much time focusing on what makes a significant change in the cruise contract.

 

Significant alterations to essential terms

 

12. In every contract there are implied terms to the effect that—

 

(a)where the organiser is constrained before the departure to alter significantly an essential term of the contract, such as the price (so far as regulation 11 permits him to do so), he will notify the consumer as quickly as possible in order to enable him to take appropriate decisions and in particular to withdraw from the contract without penalty or to accept a rider to the contract specifying the alterations made and their impact on the price; and

(b)the consumer will inform the organiser or the retailer of his decision as soon as possible.

Edited July 2, 2015 by RDC1

[monicajay]

Does it really make any difference in the reason of the changes?

 

 

Yes it does.

 

For those of us in N.A. we can cancel prior to final payment and get a refund. For those in Europe they can't unless the Cruise line changes the contract. By suggesting the change was for security reasons they are not giving those that want to cancel a way to get out.

 

I think Celebrity should allow those that want to cancel the right to cancel regardless of where they live.

[ghstudio]

Does it really make any difference in the reason of the changes?

 

Is one explanation versus another going to resolve the issue of the changed itineraries or have any material affect on the change? If it was changed for safety, for profits, for marketing purposes, whatever the explanation, does not change the fact that the itinerary has been modified, and X is within their contractual rights to make such changes, a right that we all agree to when making our booking.

 

Getting a lawyer involved, seriously - have you read your contract of carriage? If you find a lawyer to take this case, be forewarned, he's taking your case simply to pad his billings, as there is no possibility you have any standing here.

 

I doubt X or any company has any legal requirement to provide any sort of rationale or explanation when they make such changes, especially since the contract of carriage explicitly states that you are paying to get from point A to pint B, the stops in the middle are not part of the contract and changes are not compensable unless "major changes" are made in the contract language of certain countries, which is further defend as more than 2 stops modified. However USA bookers, do not get this level of protection as european bookers do.

 

As pointed out, the poster is in Germany where he loses his deposit if he cancels. In this case, I think a letter from a lawyer and the possibility of this going to court under the consumer protection laws of the EU (bad publicity and perhaps drastic ramifications should Celebrity lose) might actually matter. Even without going to court, it might inspire the consumer protection folks to redefine minor/major impacts. It's a potential lose/lose for Celebrity (and the cruise industry).

Edited July 3, 2015 by ghstudio

[PoppyandNana]

As pointed out, the poster is in Germany where he loses his deposit if he cancels. In this case, I think a letter from a lawyer and the possibility of this going to court under the consumer protection laws of the EU (bad publicity and perhaps drastic ramifications should Celebrity lose) might actually matter. Even without going to court, it might inspire the consumer protection folks to redefine minor/major impacts. It's a potential lose/lose for Celebrity (and the cruise industry).

 

 

Wow!! All this because Passengers are forced to spend an overnight some where? Lawyers, contractual rights, canceling bookings.

 

Jeesh people put this in perspective. Can't believe someone is going to cancel a cruise because they are being forced to spend a night docked.

[RDC1]

Wow!! All this because Passengers are forced to spend an overnight some where? Lawyers, contractual rights, canceling bookings.

 

Jeesh people put this in perspective. Can't believe someone is going to cancel a cruise because they are being forced to spend a night docked.

 

Most have been unhappy because of the loss the a port they wanted to visit, not the overnight stay. I know I have booked cruises where I would have canceled if the line had made changes resulting in the loss of a specific port.

 

Of course being in the US I can make such decisions without penalty, unlike the travelers from Europe that are pretty much stuck.

[Project_gal]

Significant alterations to essential terms

 

12. In every contract there are implied terms to the effect that—

 

(a)where the organiser is constrained before the departure to alter significantly an essential term of the contract, such as the price (so far as regulation 11 permits him to do so), he will notify the consumer as quickly as possible in order to enable him to take appropriate decisions and in particular to withdraw from the contract without penalty or to accept a rider to the contract specifying the alterations made and their impact on the price; and

(b)the consumer will inform the organiser or the retailer of his decision as soon as possible.

 

Can anyone really argue that a change in the ports visited is "an essential term of the contract, such as the price"? I am sure that Celebrity's European lawyers have decided that it cannot be.

 

As I have said before, we have had port changes on every Celebrity cruise we have booked through Celebrity UK. Our first cruise was in 2006 and the change for that cruise was not only the most minor but also the furthest out pre-cruise. That was the only cruise for which we were offered a refund if we wished to cancel because of the change.

 

My guess is that sometime between 2005 and 2007, Celebrity had the law clarified for them by their lawyers.

[Desertbelle]

Several years ago we were booked on the Dawn Princess and because of engine issues (the ship was newly out of dry dock with new engines, and they couldn't be run at full power....a breaking in period was needed, like they didn't know this ahead of time) our 10 night, 7 ports cruise turned into 3 ports, and two of them half days. Princess told us this was going to happen the week AFTER final payment. We got $100 per cabin compensation.

 

People were livid, some got lawyers....we went, enjoyed it the best we could. We speak with our money, we will never cruise with Princess again and I tell the story (it's a long one) as often as I can.

[Bo1953]

Here's a revelation for you.

 

Itinerary and ports can CHANGE at anytime for whatever reason Celebrity chooses to use.

 

It's in your cruise contract.

 

If losing one port (not even losing an overnight - just a matter of hours!) on a 10+ day cruise is THAT important to you, then perhaps a land-based vacation going to the ports YOU select would be more suitable.

 

You'll have complete control of your vacation and you can go wherever you like, whenever you like.

 

:p :p :p :p

 

Thanks... sounds reasonable.

[Bo1953]

Please stop.

 

You keep on introducing logic and common sense into your arguments.

 

This is Cruise Critic and conspiracy theories along with the odd bit of drama is all that keeps some of us coming back.

 

Like a herd... ;-) Fortunately, there are other groups going on these cruises which do not mind and are NOT made up, mainly, of the vocal CC posters here on this topic. :cool:

[ghstudio]

Celebrity's lawyers can decide anything they want....but that's only their opinion...not the law. Everyone always feels they are right in a non-criminal legal proceeding...that's why we have courts. In every legal case, one side's opinion is found to be wrong.

 

As far as ports being changed, no one questions port changes for safety reasons, or unforseen mechanical/medical reasons (I won't go into forseen ones where they run the ship at partial speed for weeks/months rather than fix it)...or weather reasons. This itinerary/change was clearly (according to "Celebrity Cruises") for marketing reasons or clearly for safety reasons if you choose to believe the note apparently written by Celebrity in Germany to the OP.

 

Since Celebrity is still calling on some of the ports they have eliminated in future cruises in order to create overnights, it's likely that they could not sustain a claim of "safety" changes.....so it's likely that "celebrity Cruises" statement is more accurate.

 

So the question is, irrespective of the fine print and irrespective of Celebrity's interpretation of what they can and can't do....what would happen if the OP got the EU consumer protection folks focused on this. The facts aren't friendly (that's not a legal statement). Celebrity policy is no full refunds (we're talking Germany/UK/??), After the consumer made their non-refundable deposit, celebrity, for their own marketing purposes, changes the ports that will be visited, altering the offering. The consumer booked the cruise based on Celebrity's original marketing assertion that it would make the listed stops. Celebrity refuses to refund the individual their deposit.

 

Not sure if all the above is fully accurate...but you get the idea...it's not a good story...and it sort of suggests to a regulator that maybe they need to look at the regulations again. It's the kind of thing you don't want to get to court because you may not like the outcome...and so on.

 

Obviously there are some that don't care about the changes because they live in places where they can cancel and get all their money back (eg USA); some don't care because any stop is wonderful; some love the changes; etc. But let's also recognize that some may have a reasonable gripe which, to them, is worth pursuing.

Edited July 3, 2015 by ghstudio

[Bo1953]

Hi there,

 

Apologies, but this cruise was not changed for safety reasons. The change was made to allow for us to provide overnights itineraries.

 

Thank you and sorry you had to 'respond' to such out of the air accusations or mis-readings. Although not knowing how or from who the OP received that info.

 

To everyone else, if it were for 'safety' reasons, there would be publicity in major newspapers or TV or cruise publications about this, especially in the U.S.

 

I accept the published adverts on the overnights as the official position on this. Anyone else? Let us not continue to bash X on this point.

[Bo1953]

Consider also that in many cases flights have been booked and

prepaid.

We have prepaid flights from the West Coast of Canada to FLL

Would have to find something else for 14 days if we were to cancel.

So they have us over a barrel ,so to speak.

 

Actually, if you are entitled to a 'full' and unencumbered refund, then you can take the money from the cruise portion and do a 14 tour of South Florida so the flights can be still used without loss of money, unless your insurance will not cover the air portion of your vacation?

 

Just a thought.