What would you do about "scaled back" cruise?

[sail7seas]

I'm pretty certain that no one is suggesting that a line give out specific information about passengers, such as names or cabin numbers, but rather, disclosing the information that there will be a "group of around N-Nx number or passengers, and that X venues/activities will/may be closed/restricted for all or part of Y cruise".

 

Unless they have been passed, in secret, very recently, I am quite sure that there are no legal restrictions, at all, on releasing that level of information. Further, I agree with the poster who said the lines have a moral (though, I would say, "ethical") obligation to furnish passengers with said information.

 

Yes, ^^ Both off these posts are on point.

 

[serendipity1499]

:)

IMO it does apply, but that's why we all have different opinions.

 

Finally found a rule regarding airline flight manifests & I would bet it also applies to ship manifests..

 

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/243.9

 

14 CFR 243.9 - Procedures for collecting and maintaining the information.

 

§ 243.7 Information collection requirements.

(a) For covered flight segments, each covered airline shall:

(1) Collect, or cause to be collected, the full name for each passenger who is a U.S. citizen. U.S.-citizen passengers for whom this information is not obtained shall not be boarded;

(2) Solicit, or cause to be solicited, a name and telephone number of a contact from each passenger who is a U.S. citizen; and

(3) Maintain a record of the information collected pursuant to this section.

(b) The covered airline operating the flight segment shall be responsible for ensuring compliance with paragraph (a) of this section.

 

 

Covered airlines may use any method or procedure to collect, store and transmit the required information, subject to the following conditions:

(a) Information on individual passengers shall be collected before each passenger boards the aircraft on a covered flight segment.

 

(b) The information shall be kept until all passengers have disembarked from the covered flight segment.

 

© The contact information collected pursuant to section 243.7(a)(2) of this part shall be kept confidential and released only to the U.S. Department of State, the National Transportation Safety Board (upon NTSB's request), and the U.S. Department of Transportation pursuant to oversight of this part. This paragraph does not preempt other governments or governmental agencies that have an independent, legal right to obtain this information.

 

(d) The contact information collected pursuant to section 243.7(a)(2) of this part shall only be used by covered airlines for notification of family members or listed contacts following an aviation disaster. The information shall not be used for commercial or marketing purposes.

 

Must quit & make DH' something to eat, else we won't be going on our cruise...LOL :)

[sail7seas]

Not to be argumentative but we aren't talking about an airline and a flight that lasts (hopefully :D) hours.

 

No access to Crows Nest for a whole cruise?

Forced to leave aft pool on a sea day?

Sometimes an entire traditional dining time is reserved for the group and all others are denied that time?

Taking over Pinnacle, sometimes for the whole week?

Etc

 

Quite different than an international airline.

 

[Fouremco]

:)

IMO it does apply, but that's why we all have different opinions.

 

Finally found a rule regarding airline flight manifests & I would bet it also applies to ship manifests..

 

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/243.9

 

14 CFR 243.9 - Procedures for collecting and maintaining the information.

 

§ 243.7 Information collection requirements.

(a) For covered flight segments, each covered airline shall:

(1) Collect, or cause to be collected, the full name for each passenger who is a U.S. citizen. U.S.-citizen passengers for whom this information is not obtained shall not be boarded;

(2) Solicit, or cause to be solicited, a name and telephone number of a contact from each passenger who is a U.S. citizen; and

(3) Maintain a record of the information collected pursuant to this section.

(b) The covered airline operating the flight segment shall be responsible for ensuring compliance with paragraph (a) of this section.

 

 

Covered airlines may use any method or procedure to collect, store and transmit the required information, subject to the following conditions:

(a) Information on individual passengers shall be collected before each passenger boards the aircraft on a covered flight segment.

 

(b) The information shall be kept until all passengers have disembarked from the covered flight segment.

 

© The contact information collected pursuant to section 243.7(a)(2) of this part shall be kept confidential and released only to the U.S. Department of State, the National Transportation Safety Board (upon NTSB's request), and the U.S. Department of Transportation pursuant to oversight of this part. This paragraph does not preempt other governments or governmental agencies that have an independent, legal right to obtain this information.

 

(d) The contact information collected pursuant to section 243.7(a)(2) of this part shall only be used by covered airlines for notification of family members or listed contacts following an aviation disaster. The information shall not be used for commercial or marketing purposes.

 

Must quit & make DH' something to eat, else we won't be going on our cruise...LOL :)

Perhaps you could point out what part of this you think pertains to general information about a group and its use of ship facilities.

[sail7seas]

I know some lawyers who call that 'bury them in words and paper'. They say if you provide enough words, they'll start to think it matters. :)

 

No offense intended just a touch of humor.

 

(Please note the body language is amiable, the face is a wide smile, the intent is light humor.)

 

Edited July 16, 2015 by sail7seas

[ellieanne]

I find it interesting that many people have no issue with blocking off areas for the exclusive use of suite passengers, but those same people are against blocking off areas for groups on board.

 

I don't really see how one is different from the other.

[summer slope]

I a rather new cruiser, what areas are blocked off for the suite passengers? Other than the lounge I'm not aware of any others.

[Fouremco]

I find it interesting that many people have no issue with blocking off areas for the exclusive use of suite passengers, but those same people are against blocking off areas for groups on board.

 

I don't really see how one is different from the other.

I suspect that's because we know in advance that certain facilities are for the exclusive use of suite passengers, whereas in most cases, including that of the OP, there's no foreknowledge of what facilities group with take over.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Fouremco

[DaveOKC]

I a rather new cruiser, what areas are blocked off for the suite passengers? Other than the lounge I'm not aware of any others.

 

Maybe Pinnacle for breakfast and some place for the suite welcome cocktail party?

[Typhoon1]

I would do nothing. Sounds pretty trivial.

[ellieanne]

I a rather new cruiser, what areas are blocked off for the suite passengers? Other than the lounge I'm not aware of any others.

 

Right now, other than the Neptune Lounge and the Pinnacle Grill for breakfast, I don't know of any public spaces routinely kept for suite passengers only on the Holland America ships.

 

I was referring to another "spirited" thread discussing suite-only areas on other lines and whether or not that should be implemented on Holland America ships.

[TraelorMex]

(following copied from 'Cruisefeverdotnet)

 

The best thing to do is to try to use your favorite search engine to search the dates of the cruise and name of the ship. Try the dates in different formats and see what comes up. Often times, if it is a larger group booking part of the ship, they will have these details mentioned on a webpage or forum somewhere online. This was the case for my dreaded cruise and I could have avoided all of the craziness if I simply did this searching.

 

You will not always get a good idea of the size of the group from the webpage, but some of them will say how many tickets are available or what the limit is.

 

You can also ask your travel agent about any large groups. This information is not always privy to them, but often they will have some insider knowledge as to who else will be cruising with you, so it doesn’t hurt to ask.

 

There used to be a website that listed all of the large group cruises, but I have done some research and it is no longer in existence. Alternatively, you can check out http://themecruisefinder.com to find group cruises. You can’t search by ship, however. You can look at the different categories for the themes and see if a cruise is scheduled during your trip. You can also use Google to search for listings on this site. For instance, just type in Google “site: http://themecruisefinder.com Carnival Liberty”. You will see a list of group cruises for that ship. Keep in mind that this does not include all group cruises and some of these groups are very small and would not impact your cruise in the slightest. But it’s a good resource to have.

[Cruiser Andi]

I called the Group Administration Office about the potential of a group on board my up coming cruise. They told me there were less than 30 (at that time) people in the group. They'll give out information if you call and ask.

[sail7seas]

I suspect that's because we know in advance that certain facilities are for the exclusive use of suite passengers, whereas in most cases, including that of the OP, there's no foreknowledge of what facilities group with take over.

 

I find it interesting that many people have no issue with blocking off areas for the exclusive use of suite passengers, but those same people are against blocking off areas for groups on board.

 

I don't really see how one is different from the other.

 

Big difference is that information is freely available in brochures and HAL's website. If one reads the available information, they learn there are some venues and amenities which suite guests buy and HAL provides for that extra $$. If anyone disapproves of HAL selling those amenities, they know about it when they book their cruise (if they have done their homework) and don't book if they disapprove.

 

When one books a cruise they expect full use of the whole ship that is customarily available and all activities they normally expect. They have not sure way to learn if there is a group, of unknown size, who may deny them access to venues and activities until they are already on the ship and not much they can do about it.

 

Very different circumstance IMO

 

[Khaos WolfKat]

Let me explain.... No, there is too much. Let me sum up.

 

Exactly this...

 

Big difference is that information is freely available in brochures and HAL's website. If one reads the available information, they learn there are some venues and amenities which suite guests buy and HAL provides for that extra $$. If anyone disapproves of HAL selling those amenities, they know about it when they book their cruise (if they have done their homework) and don't book if they disapprove.

 

When one books a cruise they expect full use of the whole ship that is customarily available and all activities they normally expect. They have not sure way to learn if there is a group, of unknown size, who may deny them access to venues and activities until they are already on the ship and not much they can do about it.

 

Very different circumstance IMO

 

Also, this:

 

:)

Perhaps you could point out what part of this you think pertains to general information about a group and its use of ship facilities.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Khaos WolfKat

[serendipity1499]

:)

Perhaps you could point out what part of this you think pertains to general information about a group and its use of ship facilities.

 

Read my original post..When Sail asked why HAL could not divulge the names of the group & the number of Psgrs, I said it is not legal..That's all I said..

 

You all are asking me where I got this info..That's it..I also said in a earlier post that people should be given an option to cancel & rebook if venues such as the Crows Nest & early entertainment was closed!!!

..

Please don't misread my posts or put your words in my mouth! IMO it is not legal for the cruise line to give out names & numbers of people in a group..Period..That's all I said!! & I stick by that.. :(

 

I never said they could not advise other psgrs when venues were closed!! :(

 

I also encouraged the OP to write to HAL & make the complaint about not being able to use all the amenities on the ship..Period!!!

 

Please read my posts & stop asking me questions about what you think I'm saying..

 

If you don't understand what I said, that's your problem not mine!

Edited July 17, 2015 by serendipity1499

[sail7seas]

I don't believe I ever asked the name of the group. To me that is not relevant.

 

 

In your post #45 above, you quoted my whole post and the relevant verbage in that quote is:

 

 

<snip>

What irks me is even is directly asked, most cruise lines will not answer directly and advise how large the group is or usually will not even confirm there is a group. The reason for that is obvious. <snip>

 

 

Didn't ask for names in any posts in this thread that I can see. Have I missed where I did?

Edited July 17, 2015 by sail7seas

[serendipity1499]

I don't believe I ever asked the name of the group. To me that is not relevant.

Did I ask that somewhere and I've forgotten?

 

No you did not ask for names, but you asked me where the law stated that airlines could not divulge their Manifests & I spent several hours looking for it..That's all..I never said that they could not tell you when venues would be closed..I commiserated (sp?) with you & the OP & also said that I would be very irate if venues were closed to me such as the ones you had..

 

 

 

All I gave you were the International Airline regulations about divulging Manifests & naming Psgrs (including group Passengers) & went on to say that I believe the cruise lines are the same...Again I wish you would all read my posts & stop putting words in my mouth that I never used! :(

 

 

I will again tell the OP that she should make a complaint exactly like she worded it in her first post & see what HAL comes back with..

[sail7seas]

 

<snip>

 

Read my original post..When Sail asked why HAL could not divulge the names of the group & the number of Psgrs, I said it is not legal..That's all I said..

 

<snip>

 

 

 

 

Above is quoted from your post #66 above.

 

'Night. I'm off to bed. :)

 

 

Edited July 17, 2015 by sail7seas

[cruisin0218]

I agree with your frustration. I think it's fine to accomodate a special group but it should not take away from the experience of the rest of the paying guests. I know several cruise lines are doing this but I think the cruise lines should work the needs of the group around the routinely scheduled activities. They should only be allowed exclusive use of a space if it is not routinely used at that time. Perhaps what they need to do is to have a few of their ships equipped for this type of arrangement and those ships could be constructed with a conference area for that purpose. I guarantee you that people in that group could attend any of the regular activities if they desired. They certainly should not be allowed priority disembarcation at any port.

 

While they certainly cannot replace this vacation they should be held accountable and about the only way to hold them accountable is financially. So I think at least some credit toward another cruise or refund for part of the cost of this cruise is in order.

[chrismch]

On a recent cruise, the Crows Nest was reserved every evening from 5-7 for the equivalent of 4 star mariners and above. This is were we liked to go to listen to music before our dinner. They were the normal ship's entertainers - not brought on for a group.

 

The first night I was disappointed but then others I'd met who were in that category told me not to worry about it, to come in, which I did and continued to do the other nights.

 

Here's my thoughts - cruiselines normally shut off venues on a regular basis for past passengers. Do you complain about that? Probably not. Smaller informal groups get reserved spaces too - like M&G groups.

 

If you went to a restaurant and a large part of the restaurant was booked for a party and you were still given a table and had the same food, would you complain?

 

These tour groups pay a premium of anywhere from $500- $1500 pp to be part of this tour and given access to certain venues. They usually book Alaska and the Caribbean.

 

I was on an Alaskan cruise last summer and what I remember was having a naturalist on board for the time in the glaciers. Other than that it was mostly videos and not speakers. So maybe it wasn't scaled back for the particular cruise but a change in HAL's standard set-up for the cruise - with or without a tour group.

[serendipity1499]

On a recent cruise, the Crows Nest was reserved every evening from 5-7 for the equivalent of 4 star mariners and above. This is were we liked to go to listen to music before our dinner. They were the normal ship's entertainers - not brought on for a group.

 

The first night I was disappointed but then others I'd met who were in that category told me not to worry about it, to come in, which I did and continued to do the other nights.

 

Here's my thoughts - cruiselines normally shut off venues on a regular basis for past passengers. Do you complain about that? Probably not. Smaller informal groups get reserved spaces too - like M&G groups.

 

If you went to a restaurant and a large part of the restaurant was booked for a party and you were still given a table and had the same food, would you complain?

 

These tour groups pay a premium of anywhere from $500- $1500 pp to be part of this tour and given access to certain venues. They usually book Alaska and the Caribbean.

 

I was on an Alaskan cruise last summer and what I remember was having a naturalist on board for the time in the glaciers. Other than that it was mostly videos and not speakers. So maybe it wasn't scaled back for the particular cruise but a change in HAL's standard set-up for the cruise - with or without a tour group.

 

I bolded your two paragraphs..You are correct that they may or may night block off PART of a venue, but to close an entire venue every night, like Sail had on her cruise, IMO is not right! Never should the entire Crows nest be blocked off EVERY day & night for a group.. Not all tour groups pay a premium! DH & I were booked into a tour group on our Antarctic & SA cruise in 2013 & never paid a premium..In fact we paid about 13% less than the published HAL fare..Many of the groups we booked, paid less than our regular Passengers! Normally Charters pay more because they get extra dinners, tours, etc.. When I've booked meet & greets, I've only asked for a place to meet, but if I was told to limit our numbers, I would advise those on our roll call..Those meetings are usually only for an hour or two in the middle of the day..

 

You ask: Quote If you went to a restaurant and a large part of the restaurant was booked for a party and you were still given a table and had the same food, would you complain? Unquote Of course I would not complain if we were given a table & the same food! But if I paid for a cruise & the restraint was closed completely to me for my normal early dinner or the Crows Nest was off limits every night, you can be sure I would complain.. However, if I was told this was a possibility in advance & given the option to rebook, then I could make an informed decision!

Edited July 17, 2015 by serendipity1499

[navybankerteacher]

Did you eat 3 or 4 or 5 or more meals each day? Did the ship go to each port, as scheduled? Did the cruise start or end as scheduled? Were the bars open, the drinks cold? Was your cabin cleaned every day- twice?

 

If the answers to each are yes, I don't think you have much to complain about.

 

Having been on two, back to back cruises with 500 people on each, in groups, we experienced almost zero impact on our cruise. We noticed one or perhaps two venues occupied each day, but they weren't venues we would normally use at those times anyway. No impact on our cruise.

 

This dismissive attitude leaves me with the impression that the groups with whom you shared cruises were unusually inactive and/or unorganized. On several cruises with groups of several hundreds I have experienced significant limitations on access to venues, reduced activities and general diminishment of the quality of experience available to non-group members.

 

I have expressed my concerns to the lines in each case - and hope OP (and everyone so impacted) does as well. Since it is obvious that the presence of large groups does impact the experience, I feel the line owes it to their public to make it clear that a large group is/will be on board --- or, at the very least, strictly limit the special considerations given such groups.

[lcand1923]

The OP explained his disappointment very well in his post. I would write to the President of HAL with his disappointment.

 

I have been on quite a few cruises where groups caused portions to be closed to the general population because of special lectures, group parties, etc. I can feel the original posters pain due to the "special embarkation" procedures because I have experienced this also.

 

I would not request any special compensation because he got the "basic service" offered. I equate it to what happens frequently when you stay at a hotel that has a large group booked. Let HAL figure out what they can do to bring you back.

[igraf]

This is exactly what HAL is counting on to get away with this practice. They got your money and the cruise is over. Too bad.

 

HAL can easily offer a partial refund or a future cruise credit. It is not too hard to come up with a form of compensation.

 

igraf

 

 

 

 

....Obviously, not having the group on your cruise would the biggest thing, but that ship has quite literally sailed. So what can Holland America do now to make you happy? What do you want to come from your complaint?