HAL Cutbacks

[joekerstef]

One person's cutback is another's improvement. For example, as someone who does not appreciate Baked Alaska, I am happy not to have that ol' parade, and like the dessert options that are available in its stead just fine. Also, as a lacto-ovo-pesco vegetarian, I am perfectly happy with what I consider to be greatly improved menus, without all the meat-intensive offerings.

 

 

 

This said, one cut I abhor is the reported removal of my beloved Eggs Benedict station on the Lido. The Eggs Benedict options are a serious quality-of-life issue for me. I can't say that I won't cruise HAL anymore if they are truly gone, but I will be horribly disappointed. I have heard that two options are still available, but no one has told me whether they are freshly made, or come out on a giant pre-made heat-lamped tray as other (previously lesser) cruise lines tend to do. I will find out for myself in 14 days -- and my excitement for my upcoming cruise on Maasdam is diminished by this worry.

 

 

Just off the Maasdam. I didn't have the eggs Benedict, but my mother did and it was fresh and with Canadian bacon available. Only on one side of the Lido though.

 

Did hear grumbling about the food from some people with higher expectations from previous cruises. It was my first HAL cruise and I thought the food to be pretty good with the exception of the Dive In, which people had talked up on the CC boards as being amazing. I thought the burger was over-cooked and full of sodium products, and the hot dogs weren't great either.

 

One thing I thought really weird--I swear the shampoo provided in the showers is watered down to conserve product. I had to use what I normally would consider to be a ton of shampoo and I still wasn't able to completely lather my hair. Weird.

 

 

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[Copper10-8]

Copper, . On HAL ships, what ;position oFficer is 'crewOfficer?

Staff Captain?

 

Hi S7S; staff captain and crew officer are two entirely different positions. Staff Captain is the head of the Nautical Dept and, as such, is in charge of the Nautical or Deck officers, quartermasters, sailors, "boatmen" and everyone else assigned to Nautical incl. medical and security.

 

The crew officer can best be described as a crew purser, separate from the human resources manager. The HRM deals with personnel matters onboard while the crew officer deals with crew paperwork. To make matters more complicated, on the smaller HAL ships (PRDM, "S" and "R" class) the crew officer also meets with the local authorities and accommodates the clearance of the ship with them upon arrival. On the Vistas, Signatures and Pinnacle class ships that last duty is performed by the PPO, the port paper officer

 

The HRM is a 2-stripe officer while the crew officer is a 1-stripe officer

 

[cvpends]

Just off the Maasdam. I didn't have the eggs Benedict, but my mother did and it was fresh and with Canadian bacon available. Only on one side of the Lido though.

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums mobile app

 

How nice to hear this report from someone fresh off the Maasdam! Thank you so much! Could you please ask your mother if there were other options besides Canadian bacon? My daughter and I both like the crab, smoked salmon, spinach, and the like in our Eggs Benedict. Thanks so much!

[OlsSalt]

Can you two (cheng and copper) tell us more about maritime academy training.

 

This is a career choice I don't hear many people out my way even considering, yet its rewards and benefits appear great ..along with the obvious drawback of long contracts at sea.

 

Thanks. We know MS Jakarta trains the cabin and dining staff. But what about all the other back office slots. Are some just "off the street" and get on the job training. Or are there specific maritime trade, schools as well as the professional officer training programs.

 

I love the silent skills of the tender boat operators - how do they get trained and what do they do when they are not ferrying passengers into port. Are they the ones who will man the life boats too in case of an emergency or do other officers take over then.

Edited June 20, 2016 by OlsSalt

[Krazy Kruizers]

Just off the Maasdam. I didn't have the eggs Benedict, but my mother did and it was fresh and with Canadian bacon available. Only on one side of the Lido though.

 

Did hear grumbling about the food from some people with higher expectations from previous cruises. It was my first HAL cruise and I thought the food to be pretty good with the exception of the Dive In, which people had talked up on the CC boards as being amazing. I thought the burger was over-cooked and full of sodium products, and the hot dogs weren't great either.

 

One thing I thought really weird--I swear the shampoo provided in the showers is watered down to conserve product. I had to use what I normally would consider to be a ton of shampoo and I still wasn't able to completely lather my hair. Weird.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums mobile app

 

 

 

When HAL started the Dive-In a couple of years ago, we tried the hamburgers -- hated them. Not the quality of meat that I buy at home.

DH also tried the hot dogs -- not the beef ones I buy on occasion at home.

We haven't been back to the Dive-In in a couple of years.

Yes -- even though I don't use HAL's Elemis products -- on one ship I noticed that the shampoo was layered -- definitely watered down. We bring our own shampoos and soaps.

[Copper10-8]

Can you two (cheng and copper) tell us more about maritime academy training.

 

This is a career choice I don't hear many people out my way even considering, yet its rewards and benefits appear great ..along with the obvious drawback of long contracts at sea.

 

Thanks. We know MS Jakarta trains the cabin and dining staff. But what about all the other back office slots. Are some just "off the street" and get on the job training. Or are there specific maritime trade, schools as well as the professional officer training programs.

 

I love the silent skills of the tender boat operators - how do they get trained and what do they do when they are not ferrying passengers into port. Are they the ones who will man the life boats too in case of an emergency or do other officers take over then.

 

 

I'll let Cheng talk to you about maritime academies since my background is in law enforcement and I had my own academy to attend and complete, now quite a few years ago ;) Once thing about the difference in British and Dutch maritime academies since this is still where HAL obtains the majority of their deck and engineering officers from. The Brits have to select either the nautical (deck) or engineering side when they enter their academy. The Dutch however, when they come aboard as officer cadets (so still in their academy) receive training in both disciplines and can make up their mind as to which "side" they want to make their career much later.

 

You already mentioned the new ms Nieuw Jakarta training center in Indonesia which prepares Food Service and Housekeeping applicants. There is a similar school in the Philippines which trains beverage, front office and culinary (food preparation) applicants

[cvpends]

These were the Eggs Benedict choices that I loved before:

[chengkp75]

Can you two (cheng and copper) tell us more about maritime academy training.

 

This is a career choice I don't hear many people out my way even considering, yet its rewards and benefits appear great ..along with the obvious drawback of long contracts at sea.

 

Thanks. We know MS Jakarta trains the cabin and dining staff. But what about all the other back office slots. Are some just "off the street" and on the job training. Or are there specific maritime trade, schools as well as the professional officer training programs.

 

I know that HAL does a great job with training their crew and staff, but I don't have a lot of details.

 

Maritime academies train deck and engine officers. In most cases, these are 4 year universities. These officers receive a professional license from the country where they live or trained. Most flag states require ship's officers to have licenses from that country when sailing on ships of that flag. Many flags of convenience, like the Bahamas, Panama, Malta, and Liberia, will recognize other country's licenses and grant a license in their country based on the original country's license. I believe that all HAL officers have Dutch licenses, and I'm not sure what the requirements for this are.

 

In the US, to be a ship's officer, you have to be a US citizen, and if you have naturalized from another country, and hold a license from that country, you must prove sea service and pass the normal US license exam to obtain a US license.

 

With the enactment of the STCW convention (Standards of Training, Competency, and Watchkeeping) by the IMO, and its entry into effect by the signatory nations (virtually all maritime nations), the standards of officers on flag of convenience ships, and the training required to obtain licenses in many countries have been strengthened. I have sailed for 40 years, and been Chief for over 30, yet a recent change to STCW regulations sent me back to class for three courses before I could renew my license (licenses typically are renewed every 5 years).

 

Most of the hotel staff and supervisors are hired based on experience in other sectors of the hospitality industry, since the majority of their jobs are independent of whether they are onboard a ship or in a land hotel or resort.

 

A career at sea is not for everyone. It has meant that I have missed important milestones in my family's and children's lives. On the other hand, I am home for months at a time, with no work (except the inevitable "honey do" list), but when kids are in school or the wife is working, this is not that much of an advantage. Pay is good, not great, certainly not what it was in the past (the salaries in US maritime jobs have been stagnant for as long as I've been sailing, and the same number of dollars today does not buy what those dollars bought 40 years ago). And let's face it, US salaries are higher than most of the European officers, but cost of living is another factor. Not complaining, wouldn't do it differently, but not a career I wanted my boys to follow me into, and not one I recommend to many.

 

There are also maritime trade schools that provide training for the certification requirements of the unlicensed deck and engine crew. Some cruise lines will include fire fighting and lifeboat training for the hotel staff, though it is not required by SOLAS, and only onboard training is required.

 

John can speak more specifically for HAL operations.

[sail7seas]

Hi Copper and thankyou. forf th info. very helpful as always.

[sail7seas]

Are Quarter masters considered to be Bridge Officers?

[chengkp75]

Are Quarter masters considered to be Bridge Officers?

 

No, Quartermasters are unlicensed deck crew.

[chengkp75]

Let me high-jack it even further - since we have the attention of such good responders here. What about all the cargo ships we see - huge, yet I hear they may have only 5 people on board - can that be true.

 

They still need all the engineering and navigation expertise, and a cook and steward, supply person etc. And what about ship repair facilities if something goes wrong.

 

The mysterious world of the high seas - more daunting than the days of Terry and the Pirates when one things of the billions of cargo that is now wending its way around our oceans day and night -- all with --people-- on them doing what they are trained to do. Amazing.

 

Good news is it looks like eggs benedict still survives, just not its former dazzling display of multiple varieties. That too is all part of the behind the scenes we never see and probably don't even much consider - the actually route it takes to get that ham from the pig and eggs from the chicken on a toasted muffin with a decent hollandaise sauce dollop to boot - every day of the week. On the high seas. Far away from that lonesome chicken farm.

 

No, the myth of 5 man crews is just that. The Japanese tried this, back about 20 years ago, and it didn't work out, and SOLAS regulations require a larger crew than that.

 

A typical cargo ship, be it container, bulker, tanker or RO/RO today has a crew of 18-25. There will be a Captain and 2-4 Deck officers, a Chief Engineer and 2-3 Assistant Engineers, 4-6 deck crew, 2-3 engine crew, and a 2-3 man Steward's department. At sea, the Bridge watch consists of a deck officer, a helmsman (deck crew), and at night perhaps a second crew to act as lookout. In the engine room, everyone is a "dayworker", meaning they all work from 0800-1800, and then they switch the engine room to "unattended" and everyone goes to sleep. Automation will wake the engineer who has the "duty" that night, if a problem comes up, but the ships normally can go weeks without any alarms at night.

 

And I was going to comment that I hoped no one minded that the whole thread went sideways.

[kazu]

I sure hope that my important question about the HAL cutback on Eggs Benedict doesn't get lost in this hijacked thread :D:o:(:);):eek:

(Kind of LOL.)

 

I think there was a post earlier confirming all was good?

 

sorry if you feel the thread has been hijacked a bit(it can happen) but if it helps, we had eggs benedict galore on the Westerdam for our 30 days and I can't see (and hope) they are not eliminated. it's one of HAL's strong points IMO.

Edited June 20, 2016 by kazu

[Copper10-8]

Are Quarter masters considered to be Bridge Officers?

 

Nope; they're not even petty officers (supervisors) but they do have a very important function. Bridge officers are the captain/master, staff captain, and 1st, 2nd and 3rd officers (HAL no longer has he rank of 4th officer) and then there are the officer cadets but that a whole different story ;)

 

Apologies for the drift from your eggs benedict, OP. If it does any good, I can tell you that during my most recent four months onboard (Jan-Apr) eggs benedictus were alive and well with a choice of about six or so different applications for breakfast in the morning in the Lido and they were fresh and pretty dam good ;)

[rkacruiser]

Copper 10-8,

 

Thank you for replying to my question about personnel needed for port clearance.

 

Maybe this is something else that has changed on HAL over the years. During the 2008 World Cruise, docking in Sydney, I was on deck watching the gangway being established between the ship and the terminal. Purser Peter was one of the Officers present waiting for the gangway's positioning. When all was OK, the authorities boarded and Peter greeted them and led them, I assumed, to his office.

[rkacruiser]

That's the way tenders are handled on nearly every international ship, though some use 4th Officers. Interestingly, the USCG considers tenders to be "uninspected" passenger vessels (uninspected because of tonnage), and require the tender operator to have a USCG license as Operator of Uninspected Passenger Vessels (OUPV)(commonly referred to as a "six pack" license from the original requirement that the vessel carry "six pax" or less), so the POA uses a licensed deck officer to take the first tender to shore, where he/she picks up local OUPV operators to drive the tenders for that port.

 

Unless I was told incorrectly on the Statendam's final voyage for HAL, there are no more 4th Officers on HAL. That position seems to have been replaced with Deck Cadets.

[Copper10-8]

Copper 10-8,

 

Thank you for replying to my question about personnel needed for port clearance.

 

Maybe this is something else that has changed on HAL over the years. During the 2008 World Cruise, docking in Sydney, I was on deck watching the gangway being established between the ship and the terminal. Purser Peter was one of the Officers present waiting for the gangway's positioning. When all was OK, the authorities boarded and Peter greeted them and led them, I assumed, to his office.

 

Long-time HAL Purser Peter W was onboard during this year's GWV also but he no longer does the clearance. Not exactly sure how long the 'crew officer' been around but at least since late 2010 when I joined. As a side note, I've counted up to seventeen "local authorities" boarding in one port. We would have required the use of the ship's electric forklifts to get them into Peter's office ;) That's why those early morning meetings usually take place in the Hudson or Half Moon rooms for extra space

[cruising cockroach]

Let me high-jack it even further - since we have the attention of such good responders here. What about all the cargo ships we see - huge, yet I hear they may have only 5 people on board - can that be true.

 

Might be the minimum on duty at any time but there's certainly more. Got off a large container ship (length of an Oasis-class ship and almost the same beam) a few weeks go and there were 26 though 2 were extra.

 

They were:

 

Captain

1st Officer

2nd Officer x 2 though the ship had an extra

3rd Officer

Chief Engineer

2nd Engineer

3rd Engineer

4th Engineer

Electrician

Reefer (in charge of maintaining the refrigerated containers)

Bosun

Able Seaman x 3 (always one on duty)

Ordinary Seaman x 3

Oiler x 2 (engine room mechanics)

Electrical Fitter

Deck Fitter

Chief Cook

Mess Man (a.k.a steward)

 

Had a electrical cadet too

[cvpends]

I think there was a post earlier confirming all was good?

 

sorry if you feel the thread has been hijacked a bit(it can happen) but if it helps, we had eggs benedict galore on the Westerdam for our 30 days and I can't see (and hope) they are not eliminated. it's one of HAL's strong points IMO.

 

I wish that you were right. But, as I stated earlier in this thread, I am lacto-ovo-pesco vegetarian, so I asked if "there were other options besides Canadian bacon? My daughter and I both like the crab, smoked salmon, spinach, and the like in our Eggs Benedict." This question was buried, unfortunately, when this thread became about merchant seamanship instead of HAL cutbacks. The information shared here by the hijackers was interesting, just poorly placed.

[chengkp75]

Unless I was told incorrectly on the Statendam's final voyage for HAL, there are no more 4th Officers on HAL. That position seems to have been replaced with Deck Cadets.

 

As John says, cadets are not licensed. As far as I know, only Cunard and British and some Commonwealth ships stick with the 4th Officer/Engineer. In fact, the British Merchant Navy did not follow the practice of having multiple deck and engine officers with the "same rank", like having 3-4 3rd Officers onboard. They would be the 3rd, 4th, 5th Officer, etc.

[RocketMan275]

How nice to hear this report from someone fresh off the Maasdam! Thank you so much! Could you please ask your mother if there were other options besides Canadian bacon? My daughter and I both like the crab, smoked salmon, spinach, and the like in our Eggs Benedict. Thanks so much!

 

They had all those on Westerdam in March this year.

[cvpends]

They had all those on Westerdam in March this year.

 

I know, right?!? They have always had them on my HAL cruises, and I have always looked forward to them. And yet just this month cruisers are coming back from sailings saying that the Eggs Benedict bar has been removed! Some are saying that only Canadian bacon is available on the Bennies, some are saying Canadian bacon and one other thing. But no one has told me what that other thing is, or what the range of things are if it varies by day. I would love to hear that my eggs are freshly poached, and that I can still get crab or smoked salmon or spinach on my Eggs Benedict, even if on alternating days.

[rkacruiser]

Thanks for your replies John and chengk75!

 

On HAL, there are two Officers on the Bridge at all times. (That is my understanding.) The OOW is the Senior Officer. Does a Cadet Officer serve as the second Bridge Officer? Or, is there still a more senior Officier to the Cadet on watch?

 

On the Statendam, because of a special program that Captain Norman (or someother wise person) instructed to be presented to us guests, one of the 3rd Officers presented a natuical oriented program most days at sea that was extremely informative. He usually included both Deck and Engineering Cadets in his presentations. I was very impressed with the Cadets. Their ability to help the 3rd Officer answer our questions added to the program's presentation.

 

If HAL employs these young men and women, her ships will be in good hands, I believe.

[OlsSalt]

...... As a side note, I've counted up to seventeen "local authorities" boarding in one port. We would have required the use of the ship's electric forklifts to get them into Peter's office ;) That's why those early morning meetings usually take place in the Hudson or Half Moon rooms for extra space

 

Hmmmm .... should I guess that port was in ..... India ......???

[OlsSalt]

Thanks for your replies John and chengk75!

 

 

..... He usually included both Deck and Engineering Cadets in his presentations. I was very impressed with the Cadets. Their ability to help the 3rd Officer answer our questions added to the program's presentation.

 

If HAL employs these young men and women, her ships will be in good hands, I believe.

 

Some of us are also "very impressed" with I assume are the "deck cadets" -- those tall, darn cute, young guys who look so good in their snappy uniforms. Tell me they do more than just look good for the cruise brochures? ;)

 

And uniforms on all the rest of the officers makes them all a good looking cut above too. Which is why some of still like our men in tuxes on formal nights. (Sigh)

Edited June 21, 2016 by OlsSalt