Gratuities going up..

[yuccaman]

My $13.50 worth in this debate. Firstly I am British and I tip for service over and above what I expect. That is what a tip is - it is not to subsidise the wages of the staff. The wage structure for the whole crew should be such that they are paid a living wage after all that should be how the fare policy is calculated. In any business Raw Material + cost of manufacture ( or wholesale purchase ) plus profit = retail cost.

 

As far as the argument goes that tips don't get to all staff eg kitchen staff, I am sorry but they should be paid to produce a quality meal all the time, that is what I pay for in my cruise price. I select on experience and review. I don't expect to get a poor meal because the staff doesn't get a tip or the floor not cleaned because the cleaner doesn't get a tip. Cruise lines should pay a correct rate for the job done not charge tips to subsidise the wages. Cruises are expensive enough anyway.

 

Just because certain countries have a policy of adding tips to everything doesn't make it right. Charge the right price in the first place.

 

In case you think this is a mean old Brit talking - let me say straight away that if gratuities were included in the price of the holiday I would still tip those staff who had served me over and above my expectations. That to my mind is what a gratuity is.

 

 

I got you. I'm not going to argue with you. I'm not going to take the side of the cruise corporations, either. But I AM going to tell you how it works as far as the crew (blue collar) positions.

 

Customer-forward "tipped" positions such as cabin stewards, head/team waiters, etc are literally contracted to make around $2 A DAY << not a typo. SO yes, our tips ARE their salary. (In a prior job I've seen their contracts- $1.14, $1.42, $1.92 per day, a few years ago...)

 

Non customer-forward non-tipped positions are paid what to their home countries would be astronomical salaries, maybe $300+ per week, for 10-14 hour days, 7 days per week for the length of their contracts, typically 6-9 months.

 

So for those who remove their tips at the front desk, you've just cheated your waiter and your steward, etc, out of their TOTAL income for all services rendered to you. For that, they've worked 14 hour days, 7 days a week, either breakfast/lunch/dinner or lunch/dinner/lido buffet, or cleaning your room twice a day.

 

So when it comes to these persons making $1.44 a day, even though I might be feeding the system that gets out of paying them salaries, I want to make sure I am feeding them and their families for all of their hard work in hopefully making my vacation a wonderful time.

 

So yes, I've in the past removed my tips at the desk, and given more in cash than they were collecting from me... although lately, due to so many doing this, and not wanting to wait on the long lines, I now just leave the tips on my card, and then tip up in cash at the end.

 

Without knowing the above, so many people want to compare this to a land-based restaurant scenario, where servers are being paid (albeit poorly) and tips are "tips"... but in our cruising case, tips are PAY. And there are no two ways about it. So, the tips being collected might be seen as salary, whereas the extra juice you may provide at the end for exceptional service would be the "tip".

 

Not excusing the system, just explaining it.

[DrivesLikeMario]

They're balcony cabins, same as any regular balcony or Oceanview or inside...

 

Perfect, thanks! ;)

[Brisbane41]

I will give you one simple reason cruise lines do this - taxation. If they raised cruise fares equivalent to the amount of the gratuities they would be liable for corporate taxation of that income. This is a simple way to avoid paying taxes on a percentage of their income/cashflow. If they could roll it into the base fare without increasing the corporate tax liability I feel we would see it go away fairly quickly ....

 

$13.50/guest/day = upwards of $10 million PER SHIP (a rough average based on an average ship carrying 2500 passengers) in non taxed revenue per year - now multiply that times, what 17 ships in the fleet? That's a huge tax loophole they are getting away with!

 

Which country are you referring to in relation to taxes?????? Which country are the cruise ships registered in???

 

Yet there is an abundance of countries around the world that seem to survive with this system and still get tourists to pay their rates.

Edited September 18, 2016 by Brisbane41

[USNUZULOOSE]

It is quite irritating, they just raised them. And now a few months later they raise them again. I don't see raises in what we do for a living. I am not saying they don't deserve the raise,but for us we can't afford it. We haven't been able to cruise since 2012. I do miss it. But if it keeps up I won't be able to save for a cruise let alone keep up with their raises. This is just MHO. No Offense to anyone.

[Brisbane41]

It is quite irritating, they just raised them. And now a few months later they raise them again. I don't see raises in what we do for a living. I am not saying they don't deserve the raise,but for us we can't afford it. We haven't been able to cruise since 2012. I do miss it. But if it keeps up I won't be able to save for a cruise let alone keep up with their raises. This is just MHO. No Offense to anyone.

 

If I am correct on this you can still go to reception and fill out a form requesting them to be changed. That means when you board the cruise you can walk to reception and ask them to only deduct an amount nominated by you. I wonder what Princess would do if every single passenger started doing that and started nominating the older amounts. People power works and it can force change policy.

 

The only reason they do things like this is because they know passengers are stupid enough to pay for it.

[kitty kruiser]

I received the notice for my December cruise. They give the option of paying before a certain date at the old rate. If you don't do that they automatically charge you at the new rate. Seems fair.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just received:

 

Important Update Regarding Your Cruise

 

 

Dear Princess Guest:

 

To ensure our guest service on board remains among the best in the cruise industry, Princess Cruises has increased the daily gratuity charge for all voyages departing on or after December 15, 2016.

 

The new daily gratuity amounts are $13.50 USD per guest for interior, oceanview, and balcony staterooms (including children), $14.50 USD per guest for mini-suites (including Club Class), and $15.50 USD per guest for suites.

 

The gratuity rate increase is comparable to cruise industry standards and underlines our commitment toward our crew for the excellent service they provide our guests.

 

You have the opportunity to prepay your daily gratuities at the current rate through November 15, 2016 at 11:59PM PST. You may prepay through your Cruise Personalizer or contact us at 1-800-PRINCESS. Guests booked with promotions that include paid gratuities will not be affected by this rate increase.

 

Thank you and we look forward to welcoming you aboard.

 

Sincerely,

Princess Cruises

 

 

 

Princess Cruises, 24305 Town Center Drive, Santa Clarita, CA 91355

[pablo222]

If you were to get terrible service you would have no recourse since your tips would be mandatory. Not a great idea.

 

Your course of action is to no longer do business with the supplier.

 

Just like many, many things...

 

If you find a product unsatisfactory, or a poor value, don't buy it again.

[majortom10]

I got you. I'm not going to argue with you. I'm not going to take the side of the cruise corporations, either. But I AM going to tell you how it works as far as the crew (blue collar) positions.

 

Customer-forward "tipped" positions such as cabin stewards, head/team waiters, etc are literally contracted to make around $2 A DAY << not a typo. SO yes, our tips ARE their salary. (In a prior job I've seen their contracts- $1.14, $1.42, $1.92 per day, a few years ago...)

 

Non customer-forward non-tipped positions are paid what to their home countries would be astronomical salaries, maybe $300+ per week, for 10-14 hour days, 7 days per week for the length of their contracts, typically 6-9 months.

 

So for those who remove their tips at the front desk, you've just cheated your waiter and your steward, etc, out of their TOTAL income for all services rendered to you. For that, they've worked 14 hour days, 7 days a week, either breakfast/lunch/dinner or lunch/dinner/lido buffet, or cleaning your room twice a day.

 

So when it comes to these persons making $1.44 a day, even though I might be feeding the system that gets out of paying them salaries, I want to make sure I am feeding them and their families for all of their hard work in hopefully making my vacation a wonderful time.

 

So yes, I've in the past removed my tips at the desk, and given more in cash than they were collecting from me... although lately, due to so many doing this, and not wanting to wait on the long lines, I now just leave the tips on my card, and then tip up in cash at the end.

 

Without knowing the above, so many people want to compare this to a land-based restaurant scenario, where servers are being paid (albeit poorly) and tips are "tips"... but in our cruising case, tips are PAY. And there are no two ways about it. So, the tips being collected might be seen as salary, whereas the extra juice you may provide at the end for exceptional service would be the "tip".

 

Not excusing the system, just explaining it.

 

You didnt explain it very well because those that rely on gratuities have a "minimum wage guarantee" written in their contract and if the gratuities do not reach that figure then Princess make up the short fall. So if people remove gratuities they are not "cheating" the waiters and its in Princess (Carnival's) interest that you pay gratuities so that they do not have to make up the shortfall so therefore more profit for them.

[Cruiser411]

It is quite irritating, they just raised them. And now a few months later they raise them again. I don't see raises in what we do for a living. I am not saying they don't deserve the raise,but for us we can't afford it. We haven't been able to cruise since 2012. I do miss it. But if it keeps up I won't be able to save for a cruise let alone keep up with their raises. This is just MHO. No Offense to anyone.

 

Part of the equation here is that they have to keep up with their competitors. The other lines have been increasing their gratuities too and if Princess wants to keep good crew, they have to be in line with the industry...

[moki'smommy]

Part of the equation here is that they have to keep up with their competitors. The other lines have been increasing their gratuities too and if Princess wants to keep good crew, they have to be in line with the industry...

 

Some other lines have increased the suggested/automatic grats. Others have maintained the same level for the last several years. While the guaranteed minimum level may affect a new hire, it is less likely to influence an employee who has built up some seniority with the line and has perfected his or her skills. This employee is often seeing tips well above the standard based on superior service. The minimum has a much greater influence on the lesser skilled crew members!

[yuccaman]

You didnt explain it very well because those that rely on gratuities have a "minimum wage guarantee" written in their contract and if the gratuities do not reach that figure then Princess make up the short fall. So if people remove gratuities they are not "cheating" the waiters and its in Princess (Carnival's) interest that you pay gratuities so that they do not have to make up the shortfall so therefore more profit for them.

 

Yeah, true, if you consider $400-800 per month for 80 hour weeks a "minimum wage guarantee" :eek:

Edited September 18, 2016 by yuccaman

[RDC1]

Large Korportations, gaming tax laws while screwing over both their staff and paying customers. Who'd have thinked it? :rolleyes:

 

Even though the major cruise companies are not U.S. companies, they do trade on the US exchanges. As a result their financials follow US reporting.

 

They are not gaming the tax laws because if they did consider it as income, then the money going back out to the crew would be an expense and as a result the change would be tax neutral.

 

Under US financial reporting gratuities that are passed to employees are neither income, not expense. They are outside of the companies finances. That said the crew gets substantial advantage to the current system. In many countries gratuities are treated differently then wages as far as income and retirement taxes are concerned. If the companies were to make the change then the employee taxes would, in general increase.

 

As others have mentioned there are also impacts and changes that would need to be made concerning contractual agreements with travel agents, employee booking agents, etc. Also the change would pretty much require that their competition do the same thing or they would be placed at a competitive disadvantage.

 

A few years ago there was a brief period where one of the cruise lines included taxes and fees in their fares, instead of listing it as an add on to the fares. That lasted about three months before they went back to splitting those costs out.

Edited September 18, 2016 by RDC1

[RDC1]

Now I know why they just don't increase the fares and why I have a good tax accountant. In Boston we say that a lot of CASH!!! $10 million per ship. :eek:

Tony

 

Not so. The person that made that statement did not take into account the expense side of the equation. To the company revenue neutral. To the employee increased expense in many countries due to income and retirement taxes.

[justafem]

Yeah, true, if you consider $400-800 per month for 80 hour weeks a "minimum wage guarantee" :eek:

 

What I learned in Mexico: A full days wage is about $7 (US) a day. $35 a week.

[USNUZULOOSE]

Part of the equation here is that they have to keep up with their competitors. The other lines have been increasing their gratuities too and if Princess wants to keep good crew, they have to be in line with the industry...

 

I understand and thank you for you input. I am not denying there right for more pay. But for us it is just not enough income for us. The needs come before the wants. So if we can't cruise due to the prices and increases we just learn to be happy and live with it.

[floridalover5623]

Your course of action is to no longer do business with the supplier.

 

Just like many, many things...

 

If you find a product unsatisfactory, or a poor value, don't buy it again.

 

That's true but we've found that Princess usually provides personal who perform up to standards. I just don't like the idea of having tips built into the cruise price where there is no option of reversal should the occasion arise.

[mrsihopes]

That's true but we've found that Princess usually provides personal who perform up to standards. I just don't like the idea of having tips built into the cruise price where there is no option of reversal should the occasion arise.

 

 

Do you think maybe that is why the price is going up, too many people are having the tips removed from their account and those of us that pay them are paying the price.

[Musky Ike]

Do you think maybe that is why the price is going up, too many people are having the tips removed from their account and those of us that pay them are paying the price.

 

A raise in rates however is more likely to increase rather than decrease the number of passengers making adjustments

[Lucky TGO]

That's true but we've found that Princess usually provides personal who perform up to standards. I just don't like the idea of having tips built into the cruise price where there is no option of reversal should the occasion arise.

 

If Princess built the tip into the price of the cruise then that's not a tip. It's an increase in the price of the cruise. Am I right or wrong??? :confused:

Tony

[KruzeKrazy!]

A few thoughts - just my thoughts from my 37+ years of business experience in marketing and pricing practices.

 

They increase gratuities because they can... It's not about inflation - most companies monitor and follow what the competitive price umbrella allows. If their primary competitors raise prices they will to because they can.

 

They increase gratuities because they have to... If they pay less in gratuities the better employees will end up being contracted to competitors.

 

They don't bake gratuities into the overall price because they're worried... Few competitors want to be the first one to change industry pricing practices out of concern of being viewed at a price disadvantage. For example, who will be the first to bake taxes and port charges into the overall pricing and (a) risk being seen as overpriced versus competition and/or (b) have the burden of continually educating the market they are included in their price when they aren't in anyone elses.

 

They keep a la carte pricing because they like it... The more a la carte pricing options there are the lower the advertised "base fare" is which can help attract a new clientelle. Also it pernits customers to "customize" their experience and have their pricing reflect their choices. Think including $X on everyone's price for Y number of shore excursions when many people wouldn't want to do that many - however many Y may be.

[candigirl]

I got the email too. Lucky me, the change becomes effective 2 days before we sail. Oh well, can't sweat the small stuff. won't let if effect the great time I intend to have.

[pablo222]

That's true but we've found that Princess usually provides personal who perform up to standards. I just don't like the idea of having tips built into the cruise price where there is no option of reversal should the occasion arise.

 

What I don't like....

 

You are seated in the main dining room with another couple.

They have cancelled tips.

 

You are now paying the waiter and junior to server the entire table.

Very gracious of you!

 

Especially towards complete strangers!

[JimmyVWine]

They increase gratuities because they have to... If they pay less in gratuities the better employees will end up being contracted to competitors.

This is so often overlooked. People forget (or don't understand) how cruise ship hiring takes place. These workers don't grow up dreaming of working for Princess. At best, they dream about working on a cruise ship. So they register with an agency that places employees with cruise lines, usually representing many at the same time. To the extent that there are multiple openings available, the prospective employee is going to take the best opportunity available to him/her. And if the lion's share of one's pay is derived from tips, they are going to sign on with the cruise line that nets the highest tips. And this goes double for the workers who are already employed. When their current contract expires, they can always move over to another cruise line if the pay is better. And the best workers with the best personnel files will be the ones that will have the easiest time finding work with other cruise lines. If the industry tip amount is creeping up, PCL has to keep pace, plain and simple.

Edited September 19, 2016 by JimmyVWine

[RDC1]

If Princess built the tip into the price of the cruise then that's not a tip. It's an increase in the price of the cruise. Am I right or wrong??? :confused:

Tony

 

Under US financial accounting which applies to the cruise lines since their stock is listed on US exchanges. Tips can be considered tips and not salary as long as they are optional. Currently they are neither income nor an expense to the cruise line, they are processed outside of the cruise lines reported finances.

 

If they were to become non-optional (as in included in the fare) then they would be considered revenue and any money paid to the crew would be considered to be salary. It would then be taxed accordingly according to the crews home country as far as income and retirement taxes go. Tips are often treated differently than salary in many countries. The cruise line might also have some additional costs in the country requires any employer matching in the retirement system contributions.

[shredie]

I just got off the Grand yesterday, and the crew is fresh in my memory. I am not going to begrudge those hard workers a few more cents. As to those who are complaining about it, it seems to me that the ones who stiff the workers anyway have no reason to complain. What's a few more cents you never intend to give the crew anyway?