Ethics vs Self-interest

[Jamericannn]

deleted

Edited November 23, 2016 by Jamericannn

[NavyCruiser]

My shipmates & I used to work for the worst cruise line ever: US Navy. As a seaman recruit working 24hrs/day, + a few more for battle stations, it comes out to be $2.05 before taxes. We did get a coffin locker to sleep in, 3 high, 4 meals a day, free health care, & great trips to the Persian Gulf.

Shackles do come off once I made seaman apprentice...

[Can'tWait2SetSail]

The reviewer probably should not go on vacation to any foreign country if they are going to apply "American" standards as to how much people get paid and whether or not it is "fair".

Edited November 23, 2016 by Can'tWait2SetSail

[Scurvy Seadog]

My shipmates & I used to work for the worst cruise line ever: US Navy. As a seaman recruit working 24hrs/day, + a few more for battle stations, it comes out to be $2.05 before taxes. We did get a coffin locker to sleep in, 3 high, 4 meals a day, free health care, & great trips to the Persian Gulf.

Shackles do come off once I made seaman apprentice...

 

I can relate to that NavyCruiser. As a Seaman, I made a whopping $814.20 per month before taxes. The good life really started kicking in when I made Petty Officer 2nd Class. High enough in the food chain to avoid the really crappy duties and low enough to not be held responsible when the sh*t hit the fan. ;)

Edited November 23, 2016 by Scurvy Seadog

[sparks1093]

My shipmates & I used to work for the worst cruise line ever: US Navy. As a seaman recruit working 24hrs/day, + a few more for battle stations, it comes out to be $2.05 before taxes. We did get a coffin locker to sleep in, 3 high, 4 meals a day, free health care, & great trips to the Persian Gulf.

Shackles do come off once I made seaman apprentice...

 

I can relate to that NavyCruiser. As a Seaman, I made a whopping $814.20 per month before taxes. The good life really started kicking in when I made Petty Officer 2nd Class. High enough in the food chain to avoid the really crappy duties and low enough to not be held responsible when the sh*t hit the fan. ;)

 

Cruising reminds me of being a Chief. Except I don't have to yell at anyone if they are doing something wrong.:cool:

[jdemps]

I always thought the tips the room stewards get was quite a bit if it really is about $5 per person, per day staying in the cabins and they have 20 - 30 cabins. They also get room/board included in that hourly wage and with the cost of rent and food...that is a huge benefit.

 

But then I see the huge line at guest services and was told that most people in that line are taking off tips...dang!

 

So, I don't know how it works for them and their wages with tips being removed by selfish and cheap passengers. BUT as others have said, they can quit at any time and find something else.

[sparks1093]

agree 100% (You always have very good responses)

 

Thanks.:)

[d12j28]

My questions were based on the reviews and also some youtube videos I've watched. Having said that, I do not agree with your analogy when you compare it to what they would have make in their country. They are not working in their country so that should not be basis.

If you own a business, would you pay people from poor areas different from you would pay people from the richer areas? would the state they come from determine how much they should get paid?

 

So what country would you say they are working in? With the numerous countries cruise ships go to they have to base pay on something.

 

A business owner would have to pay the federal minimum wage regardless of state or the area a person lives in. Of course wages will be different across the country based on cost of living but there is a minimum.

 

 

As far as your two questions:

 

1 - I think it's fine. I don't think it should be based on the US because they operate to many different countries around the world.

 

2 - I don't feel as if they are underpaid IMO. They do work hard for the money though!

[BeachChik]

I don't worry about their wages anymore than I do the cashier at Walmart, the server at Chilis, or any other person I come into contact with because it is simply none of my business nor my concern. I wouldn't appreciate someone poking their nose into my business and asking what I make because it's my choice to work there at the wages I receive. Cruise ship workers are no different. If they don't like it they can seek employment elsewhere.

 

I find it mind boggling how much some here worry about what cruise ship workers earn. What about the server at Olive Garden that is considered working poor. Do you worry about them? Do you stop dining out because they make $4 an hour?

[Hoosierpop]

They should pay wages it takes to get workers to do the job at the performance Carnival expects. Let market forces decide what that is.

 

If workers aren't paid enough, they can get other jobs. Their choice.

 

 

 

 

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[NCTribeFan]

No comment as to who is underpaid and who isn't.

 

But, seriously, I'm rather appalled that people go on vacations and feel entitled to ask workers how much money they make. I was taught that you don't ask people what they earn, or what they paid for something. It's just rude, especially when speaking to someone you don't even know!

 

We all know the workers work long contracts are away from home for months.

 

But they are not indentured servants. They are there voluntarily and while I don't ask about wages, I had a wait team on Fantasy (I have many nights on that ship) that I have talked to about home and family. Both guys miss their families but love their jobs and pretty much consider themselves lucky to be in their positions and be able to send most of the funds home.

 

I do make many purchasing decisions based on ethical issues. But to cruise or not isn't one of them. Honestly, my feeling is that if a passenger starts quizzing a crew member about their earnings, they're inviting that crew member to exaggerate and play on the passengers feelings.

[Computer Nerd]

I just read a review where the cruiser say he/she had a wonderful cruise but will never cruise again. His/her reason was because after talking to many of the workers he/she was disappointed a the way carnival treated them. Many of these workers are from poor countries. The cruise line pays the workers according to what they would get paid in their country. For example, a worker from Philippines (as most cruise lines workers are) would get $2 - $4 per hour and would work long hours.

 

1. Do you guys think this is ethical? Should the cruise lines pay the workers American wages seeing the ships are operating from American ports?

 

2. Knowing that if the pay for the workers raise so will the prices to cruise or they will limit things that are "free", should we care that the workers are underpaid?

 

Thoughts....

 

First of all, it is not my concern nor anyone else's how a company decides to run their business. Workers are not drafted to work on a cruise line so there is no ethical dilemma.

 

Secondly, while they may or may not earn and hourly rate of $X.xx per hour, they also, for the most part, receive tips.

 

Third, if cruise lines were expected to follow American wage law, they would be flying US flags. It is purely your opinion that the workers are "underpaid".

[Computer Nerd]

My questions were based on the reviews and also some youtube videos I've watched. Having said that, I do not agree with your analogy when you compare it to what they would have make in their country. They are not working in their country so that should not be basis.

If you own a business, would you pay people from poor areas different from you would pay people from the richer areas? would the state they come from determine how much they should get paid?

 

They are not working in the US or on a US flagged ship either. But my question is, why do you care how or what a company pays it's employees?

[Jamericannn]

So what country would you say they are working in? With the numerous countries cruise ships go to they have to base pay on something.

 

A business owner would have to pay the federal minimum wage regardless of state or the area a person lives in. Of course wages will be different across the country based on cost of living but there is a minimum.

 

 

As far as your two questions:

 

1 - I think it's fine. I don't think it should be based on the US because they operate to many different countries around the world.

 

2 - I don't feel as if they are underpaid IMO. They do work hard for the money though!

 

Points taken. As far as what country I would say they are working in, I think it's either the country the ship is registered to or the port the ship is leaving from. I would narrow it down to the country the ship is registered to seeing that ships sometimes cruise from different countries with the same crew.

[Raxter54]

If you're concerned about the worker's wages, worried about polluting the oceans, worried about polluting the air, worried about how much food passengers waste, etcetera, ad nausium... then don't cruise. Stay home, reduce your carbon foot print, fight for "social justice", care until it hurts. I'll take that cabin you aren't using and enjoy myself....

 

Sent from my Galaxy 4

[Jamericannn]

They are not working in the US or on a US flagged ship either. But my question is, why do you care how or what a company pays it's employees?

 

Quite honestly I don't really care. First of all I would NEVER ask a cruise worker what they are making. I would not even as my coworker what they are making. The reason why I made this post was because the reviewer say he/she will not go on a cruise again because workers are underpaid.

 

I agree with what many people said earlier that the workers weren't drafted or compelled to work on cruise ships. I am sure that for many of them, if not all, working on the cruise is the best option they are offered. As long as I get good service for my cruise I am happy.

[Pellaz]

As mentioned before, we can't forget that while on board, crew get free room and free board, plus no-cost medical care from the Medical Center.

The crew dining menu is far more varied than the customers' menu, rotating every 27 days or so instead of 7 or 8 for us. (Confirmed by two separate Behind the Fun tours' personnel.)

 

Crew members also receive complimentary airfare -- or the cash equivalent should they opt to receive it -- to and from their country of origin as long as they are employed/contracted with Carnival. That's a pretty huge benefit in its own right. (Also confirmed per at least two Behind the Fun tours.)

 

So....yeah. Crew members do pretty well, all things considered.

[tree.critter]

The minimum wage for servers (or other tipped employees) is $2.13 IN the United States. Employers get away with this because their expected tips supplement their hourly wage enough to meet the Federal minimum of $7.25. A tip is supposed to be above normal pay, a thank you for job well done. So by the reviewer's ethical standing they should also be boycotting all restaurants here in the US that pay their servers less than the federal minimum wage.

 

I have also spoken to several shipboard employees and they have always expressed a gratitude for their salaries and speak of how much they enjoy the opportunities back home that working on the ships give them.

[hockeygal54]

If you're concerned about the worker's wages, worried about polluting the oceans, worried about polluting the air, worried about how much food passengers waste, etcetera, ad nausium... then don't cruise. Stay home, reduce your carbon foot print, fight for "social justice", care until it hurts. I'll take that cabin you aren't using and enjoy myself....

 

Sent from my Galaxy 4

 

 

Agree totally. I am friends via FB with several folks I have met on cruises....both crew and tour providers. I see what they do on holiday with their families and some do better than others. They all continue to do these jobs so it must be enjoyable as well as profitable for them on some level.

 

I am currently conversing with a tour owner we went with in Limon CR a couple years ago on a Canal cruise. He is just a hard working guy who runs tours and is facing a hurricane in his area with predicted land fall tomorrow. . Many ships have diverted obviously and he will lose business due to this. If anyone has any real ethical concerns about cruising etc please feel free to book an independent tour from him. I'll be glad to provide his info in a PM. I have six friends doing PC in March and will utilize his services if they port in Limon and if I take a third PC cruise, I'd spend the day with him hauling us around again.

 

 

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[klfrodo]

My questions were based on the reviews and also some youtube videos I've watched. Having said that, I do not agree with your analogy when you compare it to what they would have make in their country. They are not working in their country so that should not be basis.

If you own a business, would you pay people from poor areas different from you would pay people from the richer areas? would the state they come from determine how much they should get paid?

 

Yes, I do tip and/or pay IAW prevailing wages in the area that I am doing business.

If I'm working in Honolulu, LA, or NYC, I will tip/pay higher amounts than I do if I'm in Podunk Arkansas or Missouri or Montana.

 

If you are this appalled, then I suggest you increase your gratuities or cancel your upcoming cruise.

[easyboy]

1. Do you guys think this is ethical? Should the cruise lines pay the workers American wages seeing the ships are operating from American ports?

 

 

 

2. Knowing that if the pay for the workers raise so will the prices to cruise or they will limit things that are "free", should we care that the workers are underpaid?

 

 

 

Thoughts....

 

 

1. These workers are not covered by US Labor Laws

2. Even knowing that they have basic pay, regardless if we feel that they are underpaid, we still reward them with cash tips on top of cruise line imposed gratuities. This is to appreciate their well done job and as incentive to keep up their good work,. At the end of the day, it is the workers who can say if they are underpaid or not.

 

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Edited November 23, 2016 by easyboy

[misterjohnny]

Cruise Macro-economics

If cruise line workers were paid American wages, the cost of cruises would go up. Some might argue that it would just mean less profits for the cruise line, but CCL stock has gone up about 9% on average over the last 25 years, a good return but not outrageous (S&P 500 has gone up 7.6% on average over the same period).

 

If the cost of cruises goes up, fewer people will cruise. They will go to the seashore, plan land based vacations, etc. That means fewer cruise jobs available. Jobs that people in less developed countries are glad to take.

 

So do we have fewer cruise line workers who make more money and we feel good about ourselves, or do we let the market set the labor rate where both workers and cruise lines (and by extension, cruise buyers) agree?

 

Me, I'm a free market guy.

[summersigh]

When I was a waitress years ago :D we were paid very little an hour - it was understood that the difference between that less than minimum wage salary and a good living came from tips.

 

This is why I can't imagine removing the auto-gratuities for any employee unless the service was terrible - and that's never happened to us.:) We also normally tip extra cash to employees who made our cruise especially enjoyable.

[sfaaa]

I just read a review where the cruiser say he/she had a wonderful cruise but will never cruise again. His/her reason was because after talking to many of the workers he/she was disappointed a the way carnival treated them. Many of these workers are from poor countries. The cruise line pays the workers according to what they would get paid in their country. For example, a worker from Philippines (as most cruise lines workers are) would get $2 - $4 per hour and would work long hours.

 

1. Do you guys think this is ethical? Should the cruise lines pay the workers American wages seeing the ships are operating from American ports?

 

2. Knowing that if the pay for the workers raise so will the prices to cruise or they will limit things that are "free", should we care that the workers are underpaid?

 

Thoughts....

 

You should stop cruising and punish Carnival just like that woman.

[Eleteace]

Very interesting post! I do feel sorry for the staff for how long and hard they work, they are amazing. Don't think I could do it...

 

But like everybody has said, they wouldn't do it if they didn't want to.

 

 

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