Missed cruise due to bumped flight

[OlsSalt]

........Again though, it was totally unacceptable to drag someone off after boarding.

 

Since Dr Doa was screaming bloody murder (caught on video) even before his own violent actions got himself injured when the police tried to remove him, as soon as he went "possum" the police should have called 911 and taken him out in a stretcher instead of dragging him through the aisle..

 

Yesterday, when another verbally violent passenger, also screaming bloody murder, refused to leave the plane, the pilot cancelled the entire flight and everyone had to leave the plane and have their flight plans disrupted. In this case, the seated passengers either reacted in silence to her unrelenting verbal abuse, or even egged her on with their laughter.

 

What should passengers do when they become the unwitting participants to another passengers disruptions that end up causing them harm and delay? Should they have verbally protested her into silence and cooperation, since her actions were now affecting their travel plans too?

 

What exactly is the best course of action when a disruptive passenger refuses lawful commands to leave the plane? How would HAL deal with unruly, disruptive passengers who present similar challenges?

 

This same thing is happening on college campuses too - the loudest protests get their way. What message are we sending and how quickly will this same tactic get exploited for fun and profit.

[debsjc]

Since Dr Doa was screaming bloody murder (caught on video) even before his own violent actions got himself injured when the police tried to remove him, as soon as he went "possum" the police should have called 911 and taken him out in a stretcher instead of dragging him through the aisle..

 

Yesterday, when another verbally violent passenger, also screaming bloody murder, refused to leave the plane, the pilot cancelled the entire flight and everyone had to leave the plane and have their flight plans disrupted.

 

What exactly is the best course of action when a disruptive passenger refuses lawful commands to leave the plane? How would HAL deal with unruly, disruptive passengers who present similar challenges?

 

Well firstly unless a seat actually broke after boarding, or an airline boarding agent made an error, I can't see how they got to that stage of having too many people on board. It should have been picked up at the gate, at the very latest.

Even once boarded it was not too late for the airline to make an announcement asking for volunteers, even at the stage if the money was high enough I am sure someone would have taken it.

 

Flights do sometimes divert due to disruptive passengers and then they may have to be forcibly removed by local law enforcement wherever they land. I was on my way to catch a cruise once when that happened. But I don't think the correct way is to drag someone, if absolutely necessary then I guess they could be carried off by 2 officers.

Edited April 23, 2017 by debsjc
typo

[slidergirl]

On a sort of related note, what do you do when the airline changes your flight time by several hours? Our flight to Seattle was supposed to leave at 9 AM, a fairly civilized time, and easily doable with a car service from home. Now it's 6 AM. No way am I getting up before 4 AM to get a car to the airport in time to check in for the flight!!! We would have to stay at an airport hotel to make the early morning less stressful. When we were younger, we'd look at this as "wow! extra time in Seattle!!" But the choice of an insanely early morning or the hassle of the airport hotel and ground connections at EWR made me feel tired just thinking about it. So I called United and moved to a later flight, which leaves around 1 PM.

 

This flight is on a Friday and our cruise leaves on a Monday. So it doesn't mess with our cruise. All we lose is a half day in Seattle. This is why we travel early and book connecting flights only if there is no other option.

 

But suppose our flight EWR to SEA was the second leg of a connecting flight and our flight to EWR was arriving at 7 AM, a reasonable connection time? If you're booked on separate airlines, will the other airline make changes, or are you stuck buying another ticket?

 

No wonder people hate flying!!

 

If your flight departure time has changed by X number of minutes (I believe this is airline-dependent), you do have the option of calling and getting a different flight WHICH HAS AVAILABILITY, or getting a refund. I

If the second leg of the trip is the one affected, as long as the legal MCT (minimum connection time) is still there, or, to go the other way, anything within the time limit that keeps it a connection and not a layover (I think that is 23 hours now), you are stuck. You can call and ask to be re-accomodated on another available flight.

 

If you have booked on multiple airlines as part of an alliance AND ON THE SAME TICKET (example, Delta to Air France), they will try to re-accomodate you on another available flight.

 

And, to be blunt, if you were stupid enough to book separately on 2 different non-allied airlines, you are out of luck. No airline is going to change you to another airline or even another flight because your flight on another airline is late and you miss the "connection."

 

Back before airline deregulation, there was a nice little rule, 240. You could invoke Rule 240 and get an airline to find you a seat on another airline. But, people wanted cheaper seats and less regulation, so it went away. Now, people are bitching and moaning that they can't get accommodated on American if Delta's fight goes sideways. You got what you wanted - cheap seats in a flying Greyhound bus with people who will behave like little children...

 

Even though I'm over 60, I still like long connections. I'm a little on the claustrophobic side, so if I can have time outside that tube, I'm OK. I'll go relax in the airline lounge. I usually like a 3 hour connection minimum. I've done 23 hour connections many times coming home from Europe.

[OlsSalt]

......

Even though I'm over 60, I still like long connections. I'm a little on the claustrophobic side, so if I can have time outside that tube, I'm OK. I'll go relax in the airline lounge. I usually like a 3 hour connection minimum. I've done 23 hour connections many times coming home from Europe.

 

We are finding this works better for us now too - making one long flight into two relatively "short" flights. And always searching for the airline that offers 2-4-2 seating instead of 3-5-3. We will take the extra cost or the extra inconvenience to get a two person row by the wall, and not on the aisle, which is the other best alternative. ....in coach.

[3rdGenCunarder]

If your flight departure time has changed by X number of minutes (I believe this is airline-dependent), you do have the option of calling and getting a different flight WHICH HAS AVAILABILITY, or getting a refund. I

If the second leg of the trip is the one affected, as long as the legal MCT (minimum connection time) is still there, or, to go the other way, anything within the time limit that keeps it a connection and not a layover (I think that is 23 hours now), you are stuck. You can call and ask to be re-accomodated on another available flight.

 

If you have booked on multiple airlines as part of an alliance AND ON THE SAME TICKET (example, Delta to Air France), they will try to re-accomodate you on another available flight.

 

And, to be blunt, if you were stupid enough to book separately on 2 different non-allied airlines, you are out of luck. No airline is going to change you to another airline or even another flight because your flight on another airline is late and you miss the "connection."

 

Back before airline deregulation, there was a nice little rule, 240. You could invoke Rule 240 and get an airline to find you a seat on another airline. But, people wanted cheaper seats and less regulation, so it went away. Now, people are bitching and moaning that they can't get accommodated on American if Delta's fight goes sideways. You got what you wanted - cheap seats in a flying Greyhound bus with people who will behave like little children...

 

Even though I'm over 60, I still like long connections. I'm a little on the claustrophobic side, so if I can have time outside that tube, I'm OK. I'll go relax in the airline lounge. I usually like a 3 hour connection minimum. I've done 23 hour connections many times coming home from Europe.

 

(bold is mine) That's what I expected the answer to be. One of the reasons I hate connecting flights. Too many limitations in choice.

 

In my case, United changed the flight with no penalty because the change in time was 3 hours, which could be greater than allowed connection time, if we'd had a connecting flight. All we lost was an afternoon in Seattle. I've never thought about taking a 23-hour connection, didn't know you could do that. Something to tuck away for future reference.

[wander]

In terms of the episode of Dr. D and the "overbooking" (not really, crew accommodation was the real issue), the problem PROBABLY COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED IF United were willing to offer more $$ to passengers who would take a later flight.

 

One story I hear on TV was that they went as high as $1,000 with no takers. Now, I find this hard to believe that no one wanted $1,000 and a later flight, but certainly possible. Well, how about even $5,000 per person? I would find it basically impossible that no one would take that, and for United - $20,000 is peanuts compared to their now costs in terms of $$ AND PR. ??Pennywise and pound foolish??

[Jade13]

 

Alternatively it could have been that a crew member was required to position on the flight, in order to operate their next flight,,,, and if they did not get there it would lead to a cancellation of that next flight. Then the airline would bump 1 passenger, in order to avoid cancelling an .

 

 

Interesting possibility that I never considered. But if should have been figured out prior to the passenger boarding.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

[debsjc]

Interesting possibility that I never considered. But if should have been figured out prior to the passenger boarding.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

 

Absolutely. Plus they should not have stopped at $1000, they should have kept going up until someone took the money. As poster 'wander' said it will have cost them a lot more in lost business now.

[debsjc]

If the second leg of the trip is the one affected, as long as the legal MCT (minimum connection time) is still there, or, to go the other way, anything within the time limit that keeps it a connection and not a layover (I think that is 23 hours now), you are stuck. You can call and ask to be re-accomodated on another available flight.

 

If you have booked on multiple airlines as part of an alliance AND ON THE SAME TICKET (example, Delta to Air France), they will try to re-accomodate you on another available flight.

 

And, to be blunt, if you were stupid enough to book separately on 2 different non-allied airlines, you are out of luck. No airline is going to change you to another airline or even another flight because your flight on another airline is late and you miss the "connection."

 

 

Very good point about keeping connections on the same ticket.

 

If people buy 2 separate tickets they are also not covered if one flight arrives late and this miss their connection. The airline you have your onwards flight with could force you to buy a new ticket, and the passenger is the only one responsible.

 

A long while ago now I worked on the flight connection desk at Heathrow, and spent all day dealing with people that had missed connecting flights. Personally I would always re-book them for free, as long as they didn't yell at me!

[3rdGenCunarder]

Very good point about keeping connections on the same ticket.

 

If people buy 2 separate tickets they are also not covered if one flight arrives late and this miss their connection. The airline you have your onwards flight with could force you to buy a new ticket, and the passenger is the only one responsible.

 

A long while ago now I worked on the flight connection desk at Heathrow, and spent all day dealing with people that had missed connecting flights. Personally I would always re-book them for free, as long as they didn't yell at me!

 

(bold is mine) I'm a firm believer in not yelling at the person who can help. If I'm really stressed and start to lose it, I always take a deep breath and apologize. I feel sorry for people whose jobs are mostly fixing customers' problems. It must be hard to be yelled at for something that isn't your fault. I remember a trip in Michigan (UP) when my flight was cancelled due to engine problems. Small airport, no other planes there, just acres of empty tarmac. And people at the desk were saying "But I HAVE TO get to Chicago! Can't you do anything???" I was actually happy to get an extra day on my trip, so I got to the desk and said "Can I just try to do this again tomorrow?" I thought the woman was going to hug me, she was so relieved not to have another argument.

[debsjc]

Most of the agents actually feel really sorry for people who have missed flights, no one wants to be in that position. We made allowances for the fact people would be stressed, but we did appreciate the polite customers for sure!

 

I always used to try and give people options so they could chose what was best for them. I remember someone had missed the last direct flight from London to Boston, because their inbound flight was late (not their fault) and I offered them the choice of going that day with a change in JFK, or staying overnight at the airlines expense (with meals included) and going the next morning..... they just refused both options, and demanded a direct flight that afternoon, as if I could just magic one up! :D

[Sue from Canada]

A few points. Air Canada is the only air line I travel if I can help it and I've almost never experienced any rudeness or bumping of passengers. When booking your flight pay for a seat at the same time; don't wait until the day of flying to get an assigned seat at the airport. Check-in online as soon as the 24H window opens. And, get to the airport early. I'm not sure why she couldn't get to Miami from Toronto as Air Canada is a member of Star Alliance where a passenger can be booked onto another airline. And there are a lot of flights to Miami out of Toronto. When I'm coming home from any trip I'm always willing to be bumped.

[Dancer Bob]

What jumps out from this article is the "ticket not paid for" claim, which took hours to resolve, followed by the travel agency- New York based, not Ontario- falling over itself to make good. Did she pay Air Canada or the agency for the ticket? It reeks of backroom financial shenanigans. (If you're not familiar with TICO, it came about because of so many complaints about travel agencies.) It sounds suspiciously like it was decided "bumping" is more politically acceptable than what actually happened, and I would expect a retired lawyer to have picked up on that.

The CBC needs to ask a lot more questions about the financial claims in this story and what was said about liability, lawsuits, and whatever.

[david,Mississauga]

On Air Canada (and probably other airlines) even a full fare ticket in Business Class that may cost $thousands is non-refundable if the passenger misses the flight. From the notices I have had on my itinerary, failure to check-in by the deadline constitutes missing the flight. So even if a seat goes empty, the airline gets to keep the fare. If the "no-show" seat can be assigned to a standby passenger, the airline gets paid twice.

 

At one time full-fare tickets were refundable even for missed flights. Also, they did not have to be paid for in advance. Some business travellers would book several flights and simply take the one that was most convenient for them. This was the excuse airlines gave for overbooking. But now passengers must pay at the time of booking and the refund rules have changed. So it seems to me there is no excuse for overbooking.

 

Our Minister of Transport says there will soon be new regulations regarding airline passengers' rights. It is not my nature to be cynical, but I won't hold my breath.:)

[Globaliser]

But suppose our flight EWR to SEA was the second leg of a connecting flight and our flight to EWR was arriving at 7 AM, a reasonable connection time? If you're booked on separate airlines, will the other airline make changes, or are you stuck buying another ticket?

And, to be blunt, if you were stupid enough to book separately on 2 different non-allied airlines, you are out of luck. No airline is going to change you to another airline or even another flight because your flight on another airline is late and you miss the "connection."

Very good point about keeping connections on the same ticket.

 

If people buy 2 separate tickets they are also not covered if one flight arrives late and this miss their connection. The airline you have your onwards flight with could force you to buy a new ticket, and the passenger is the only one responsible.

 

A long while ago now I worked on the flight connection desk at Heathrow, and spent all day dealing with people that had missed connecting flights. Personally I would always re-book them for free, as long as they didn't yell at me!

To add to all of this, it's increasingly the case that if you have two separate tickets for the two halves of your "connection", you will be short of luck even if the two halves are on the same airline or on airlines that are in the same alliance.

 

If you have two separate tickets, you are not in truth "connecting" but making two separate and unconnected journeys. Technically, if you have one ticket for AAA-BBB and you have a second ticket (with any airline) for BBB-CCC, the normal position is that you are making one journey from AAA to BBB and getting you there (with or without a delay) is the extent of the first airline's obligation. The obligation of the airline for BBB-CCC, which would be a separate second journey, only starts at BBB and only if you present yourself for travel in time for the BBB-CCC flight.

 

Technically, it is normally of no concern to that airline whether your failure to present yourself was because you overslept, had a hangover that morning, crashed into another car on the way to BBB airport, or you were flying there on a flight from AAA to BBB and got delayed - and that is the same even if it was the same airline that was carrying you on your first journey from AAA to BBB.

 

Airlines often used to be more generous than the strict technical position, but increasingly they are standing on their legal rights - and instructing their staff accordingly. So unless your airline expressly publishes something to the contrary, it would be a good idea not to assume that you will still be looked after if your AAA-BBB flight is late and you miss the BBB-CCC flight on a separate ticket. Be prepared to buy a completely new ticket at the walk-up rate.

[Globaliser]

At one time full-fare tickets were refundable even for missed flights.

The Air Canada rule that you mention is far from universal. Over the decades, lots of airlines have tried different ways of reducing the no-show-then-rebook problem, but almost all have failed.

 

In any event, the airline still needs to protect its capacity against last minute (up to 45 minutes before the flight) cancellations of such reservations. By that time, it will be impossible to sell the space to a completely new customer. If there are no standby passengers or any standbys have already been accommodated, then the space will be empty and non-revenue generating - the fare paid by the late cancellation will not be kept by the airline in respect of that flight, as that passenger will either get a refund or will use the fare to travel on another flight.

 

So the need to overbook does not relate only to passengers who miss their flights.

 

Also, it is far from universal that passengers must pre-pay and that they get no refunds. That may be true of more tickets these days than before, particularly for passengers who are booking directly with the airline. But there will still be plenty of corporate / contracted / negotiated / net fare arrangements that don't work in the same way.

 

The time I got the most specific overbooking information about a flight that I was travelling on was a bit of an eye-opener. I was booked on a 747 in economy. About 5 months before the flight, an airline insider told me the current booking status of the cabin: overbooked by over a hundred. Yet in the end the flight went out only about 90% full in that cabin.

 

If, in circumstances like that, you don't permit overbooking, you can see what that would do to fares: they are at the level that they are in part because airlines can use their capacity more efficiently through overbooking. But occasionally, like all things, it will go wrong. That's one of the facts of life in travel.

[PoppyandNana]

On a sort of related note, what do you do when the airline changes your flight time by several hours? Our flight to Seattle was supposed to leave at 9 AM, a fairly civilized time, and easily doable with a car service from home. Now it's 6 AM. No way am I getting up before 4 AM to get a car to the airport in time to check in for the flight!!! We would have to stay at an airport hotel to make the early morning less stressful. When we were younger, we'd look at this as "wow! extra time in Seattle!!" But the choice of an insanely early morning or the hassle of the airport hotel and ground connections at EWR made me feel tired just thinking about it. So I called United and moved to a later flight, which leaves around 1 PM.

 

This flight is on a Friday and our cruise leaves on a Monday. So it doesn't mess with our cruise. All we lose is a half day in Seattle. This is why we travel early and book connecting flights only if there is no other option.

 

But suppose our flight EWR to SEA was the second leg of a connecting flight and our flight to EWR was arriving at 7 AM, a reasonable connection time? If you're booked on separate airlines, will the other airline make changes, or are you stuck buying another ticket?

 

No wonder people hate flying!!

 

We are on the same flight as you. 9am worked great. Not too early; gave us chance to explore a little, have a relaxing dinner etc. Then I get this email telling us our flight is now at 6am. Same issue. We are an hour from EWR and would have to get up at 4 or so. We too then changed to the 1pm flight. At least it is in the middle of the day. Gives us a chance to spend a couple of hours in the United Club using our annual Chase MasterCard cards.

 

Maybe we are not on the same flight. We leave on Sunday for Monday's cruise; you are leaving on Friday?

[3rdGenCunarder]

We are on the same flight as you. 9am worked great. Not too early; gave us chance to explore a little, have a relaxing dinner etc. Then I get this email telling us our flight is now at 6am. Same issue. We are an hour from EWR and would have to get up at 4 or so. We too then changed to the 1pm flight. At least it is in the middle of the day. Gives us a chance to spend a couple of hours in the United Club using our annual Chase MasterCard cards.

 

Maybe we are not on the same flight. We leave on Sunday for Monday's cruise; you are leaving on Friday?

 

We're going in August. I thought about staying at an airport hotel. We do that when we fly to England--we take the day flight, no choice but to get up early. I hate that Newark doesn't let the hotel shuttles drop off at the terminal. So it's getting us and our bags on the hotel van (so early that we can't have breakfast at the hotel), then at the airtrain station, bags mean we have to use the elevator. Then get ourselves and bags on the train, then off the train and to the check-in. DH immediately voted for the 1 PM flight. I didn't want to lose the afternoon in Seattle and was tempted by the extra morning. But we've been there a few times before, and I thought about the extra hassles of the pre-flight hotel and made the change. I don't know what it is about the EWR-SEA run, but we've had flight changes on some part of that trip several times.

[RocketMan275]

All these horror stories makes our decision to drive 12 hours to the port more realistic. We do not try to arrive one day early but do spend the night about a 3 hour drive from the port. Works well for us. We can get up the morning of the cruise, have a good breakfast, and be at the port before 11. If there are problems with the morning drive, we have a 3 hour window to sort them out.

[slidergirl]

We're going in August. I thought about staying at an airport hotel. We do that when we fly to England--we take the day flight, no choice but to get up early. I hate that Newark doesn't let the hotel shuttles drop off at the terminal. So it's getting us and our bags on the hotel van (so early that we can't have breakfast at the hotel), then at the airtrain station, bags mean we have to use the elevator. Then get ourselves and bags on the train, then off the train and to the check-in. DH immediately voted for the 1 PM flight. I didn't want to lose the afternoon in Seattle and was tempted by the extra morning. But we've been there a few times before, and I thought about the extra hassles of the pre-flight hotel and made the change. I don't know what it is about the EWR-SEA run, but we've had flight changes on some part of that trip several times.

 

There are these wonderful things called taxis and private car services... ;) If you have trouble with having so much luggage that you have issues porting yourself, consider paying a few dollars instead of going the free route. It will save you some aggravation.

[3rdGenCunarder]

There are these wonderful things called taxis and private car services... ;) If you have trouble with having so much luggage that you have issues porting yourself, consider paying a few dollars instead of going the free route. It will save you some aggravation.

 

We can manage our own luggage, it's the nuisance and hassle that I hate. We do use a car service if we go directly to EWR or if we're going to an airport hotel. When we were going on a quick carry-on only trip to Florida, we thought we'd try public transport, just on principle. Obviously a longer trip than a car, but what surprised me was how expensive the airport connection was--much more than taking the train into NYC. For two of us it wasn't much cheaper than a car service. We did the train to the airport once, just to say we'd tried it.

 

The other problem with such an early flight is breakfast. We'd leave the hotel before their breakfast time, and breakfast options at the airport are poor. And breakfast on the plane, well enough said there...

[cccole]

We were traveling with friends to Italy 4 years ago and the couple from Maine had neglected to check in for their flight on-line when on-line check in was available. Even though they arrived at the Boston airport 3-4 hours prior to their international flight they were bumped because they had not checked in. So....I learned that it is important to check in for flights when check in becomes available. When you check in your boarding pass is available, even if you do not print it until you arrive at the airport. We have have also had a son bumped from an inter-island flight in Hawaii for the same reason. Checking in as soon as possible on-line seems to help. Some feel that if they are checking luggage it doesn't matter but...I know that it does. I agree with others that no one should be bumped who does not give up their seat willingly for serious compensation. Cherie