Venice - No Grand Navi

[samshltn]

My husband and I have popped over to Venice for the weekend. Here, we keep seeing these protests (see picture). What's your opinion on Venice (or any city) campaigning against ships visiting?

 

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[easyboy]

Been going on for some time. It's sad but I do respect their right to protect their environ as they see it.

 

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[slidergirl]

I fully support those who protest the large ships coming into the historic part of Venice. It is their right to protest. It is their right to want to do what is necessary to protect old Venice. I don't care if someone misses their opportunity to sail up to St. Marks. Get over it. I'd rather see Venice preserved for the next generations.

[euro cruiser]

There are plenty of ways to sail up to St. Marks without coming in like a conquering behemoth.

 

How would you feel if someone drove a truck up your street several times each week, the top of which sits several hundred feet above the roof of your house and the weight of which is slowly destroying the road bed? And how would you like having a few thousand people riding on that truck, hanging off the sides taking pictures of you?

[mapleleaves]

odd that you didn't state your opinion but expect others to state theirs.

i'm not taking the bait ......

[John Bull]

odd that you didn't state your opinion but expect others to state theirs.

i'm not taking the bait ......

 

 

I'm dumb enough to take the bait :rolleyes: :D

 

And I'll go along with the others.

 

JB :)

[steamboats]

"No Grandi Navi" is going on for years. The unfortunate thing is that the Italians don´t get their homework done. Going through the Guidecca Canal is the only way to reach Stazione Marittima (not just for cruise ships but for ferries too). Then they were thinking about a new channel from the other side. It´s an exisiting one but not deep enough for ocean going vessels. So plans were to dig it out deep enough. The environmentalist stopped this with their protests. Then the major of Venice tried to stop cruise ships of more than 90,000 tons. All cruise lines sent smaller ones (like Celebrity didn´t sent the Solstice class ships anymore but the Constellation). This was skipped again. The last thing I´ve heard are plans for a new cruise port at the entrance of the channel to Venice (near Punta Sabbioni). There the small tourist villages are now protesting fearing the traffic by individuals and truck traffic supplying the ships.

 

So it´s an never ending story... BTW No Grandi Navi mainly fears the wakes of the ships destroying the wooden underwater construction and historic buildings. Air pollution is just secondary (especially as the ships have to switch to MGO entering the port area anyway for years now).

 

steamboats

[samshltn]

Odd that you didn't state your opinion.

 

I haven't formulated one yet. I'm here to encourage healthy intelligent debate, not state my case and then try to argue it.

 

During the weekend in Venice, the impact of cruise ships was incredibly apparent. I can't work out if they're helping the city or if they're just a nuisance though.

[John Bull]

I haven't formulated one yet. I'm here to encourage healthy intelligent debate, not state my case and then try to argue it.

 

During the weekend in Venice, the impact of cruise ships was incredibly apparent. I can't work out if they're helping the city or if they're just a nuisance though.

 

A double-edged sword, Sam.

Yes, the ships bring a great deal of business to Venice.

But Venice has never been short of land-based tourists, it's bucket-list for the vast majority of the world's tourists & despite potentially losing an average of mebbe 3 ships in port each day during the season the city can get along quite nicely without them.

 

The negative impacts of the ships are visual, the very real risk of a ship colliding with the scenery (it would destroy irreplaceable history, and the damage would be massive compared to an equivalent fender-bender against a concrete pier in most ports), and the eco-damage noted by steamboats.

Locals not involved with tourism would include the hordes of passengers who add to the crowds in the season, but that's a consequence of tourism anywhere.

 

JB :)

[Hlitner]

Agree with JB. In addition, we would mention that this has been an issue (in Venice) for many years and has been the subject of some national laws and court cases. There are definitely two sides to the story, but those opposed to large numbers of cruise ships docking in Venice...do have a very good point.

 

I am an avid world cruiser (for over forty years) and am aware that many ports around the world have a love/hate relationship with cruise ships. Even in the USA, there is a large anti cruise ship movement in Norfolk, VA. I have been to several Caribbean Islands which have essentially been ruined (one can debate this statement) by too many ships and cruisers. There are several Caribbean Islands where we will not longer consider vacationing...because of the problems caused by too many cruisers. Sure, we enjoy visiting those places when on a ship...but no way would we any longer pay to stay at one the local resorts. There are also some lovely Caribbean islands that do just about everything possible to limit cruise ship calls (St Barts is a good example) because they want to keep their island uncrowded and charming and continue to attract vacationers willing to pay top dollar.

 

Hank

[samshltn]

So the opinion in this thread seems to be unanimous: Cruise ships are bad for Venice.

 

Would any of us actually boycott an itinerary that included Venice though?

[cruisemom42]

So the opinion in this thread seems to be unanimous: Cruise ships are bad for Venice.

 

Would any of us actually boycott an itinerary that included Venice though?

 

I'm curious -- what is your horse in this race?

[samshltn]

I'm curious -- what is your horse in this race?

 

Only my own introspection.

 

As a 'air-tourist' to Venice this weekend, I was annoyed by the proliferation of cruise passengers, with their excursion stickers, on, blocking the picturesque alleyways like herds of cattle. It irked me that they will put very little into the economy, having already arranged breakfast and dinner on the ship, and probably being back in time for a late lunch as well. No hotels, no tourist tax, no meals or booze...

 

And then I thought ahead to my next cruise: How magical it would be to sail down the Guidecca Canal, and what a wonderfully cheap way to see Europe.

 

I asked the question because I'm pondering this dichotomy.

[GOLDENBONNY]

I fully support those who protest the large ships coming into the historic part of Venice. It is their right to protest. It is their right to want to do what is necessary to protect old Venice. I don't care if someone misses their opportunity to sail up to St. Marks. Get over it. I'd rather see Venice preserved for the next generations.

 

oh please , there is no prove that cruise ship has some affect to Venice . just another way to charge cruise company more. They do it every year.

[GOLDENBONNY]

Only my own introspection.

 

As a 'air-tourist' to Venice this weekend, I was annoyed by the proliferation of cruise passengers, with their excursion stickers, on, blocking the picturesque alleyways like herds of cattle. It irked me that they will put very little into the economy, having already arranged breakfast and dinner on the ship, and probably being back in time for a late lunch as well. No hotels, no tourist tax, no meals or booze...

 

And then I thought ahead to my next cruise: How magical it would be to sail down the Guidecca Canal, and what a wonderfully cheap way to see Europe.

 

I asked the question because I'm pondering this dichotomy.

 

Most cruise passengers stay before or after cruise in Venice and pay top dollar for best Hotels an restaurants. I did not see any ship excursions but I was annoyed by many herds without sticker. And by the way they give stickers even not for cruise ship passengers if you book excursion in Doge Palace for example. I am not even touching how much cruise ships pay for economy to go to this port and how many people in port will stay with no job if cruise ships stop coming.

[samshltn]

Most cruise passengers stay before or after cruise in Venice and pay top dollar for best Hotels an restaurants.

 

Maybe some visitors to Venice do that, but I didn't. I stayed in the cheapest hotel I could find. If I could avoid staying overnight I would. I think if I were boarding a cruise here I'd fly in on the day of boarding. Obviously if it's just a port of call for the day, personally I wouldn't book a hotel - I personally prefer to save my money.

[GOLDENBONNY]

Maybe some visitors to Venice do that, but I didn't. I stayed in the cheapest hotel I could find. If I could avoid staying overnight I would. I think if I were boarding a cruise here I'd fly in on the day of boarding. Obviously if it's just a port of call for the day, personally I wouldn't book a hotel - I personally prefer to save my money.

 

That's you but most of cruisers are different and stay in Venice 2-4 days before cruise .

[slidergirl]

Most cruise passengers stay before or after cruise in Venice and pay top dollar for best Hotels an restaurants. I did not see any ship excursions but I was annoyed by many herds without sticker. And by the way they give stickers even not for cruise ship passengers if you book excursion in Doge Palace for example. I am not even touching how much cruise ships pay for economy to go to this port and how many people in port will stay with no job if cruise ships stop coming.

 

"top dollar" - please. How many times have we have someone ask here on CC for a "cheap but clean" hotel in Venice??? :rolleyes: Anectodal, but more times than not, people here on CC aren't interested in paying top dollar for the Best Hotels - they are looking for someplace to put their head at night and not pay more than $200/night - hardly the price for the best hotels...

 

People who work in Venice on the islands can't afford to live there now. I had a co-worker who came to our hotel to work for the winter. He was a butler on one of the 5* hotels in Venice. He lived over on the mainland out past Mestre - he said it was far too expensive for the average man to live in Venice proper.

 

Venice would be just fine without the cruisers - they get plenty of visitors.

[euro cruiser]

That's you but most of cruisers are different and stay in Venice 2-4 days before cruise .

Where is your data to support this claim?

 

And what percentage is "most"? Is it 51%, or 75%, or 99%? Data, please.

 

There is a rich body of information on the environmental impacts and ongoing risks. That can be cited but I doubt it would make a lot of difference (not to mention that a lot of it is in Italian).

 

There is an attitude that I have heard voiced, by various people, that essentially if you spend enough money you should be able to buy your way out of any annoyance, from waiting on lines at museums or other sites all the way up to and beyond being the source of environmental damage.

 

One could argue the ethics of being able to buy your way out of any of this an unfair, but practically things like "skip the line" fees make sense for everyone. Somewhere along the spectrum we cross a line, but I don't know that I'd be able to identify where that line is. I just know that my desires in terms of sailing into/out of Venice are not more important than the city's right to protect itself from me.

[GOLDENBONNY]

"top dollar" - please. How many times have we have someone ask here on CC for a "cheap but clean" hotel in Venice??? :rolleyes: Anectodal, but more times than not, people here on CC aren't interested in paying top dollar for the Best Hotels - they are looking for someplace to put their head at night and not pay more than $200/night - hardly the price for the best hotels...

 

People who work in Venice on the islands can't afford to live there now. I had a co-worker who came to our hotel to work for the winter. He was a butler on one of the 5* hotels in Venice. He lived over on the mainland out past Mestre - he said it was far too expensive for the average man to live in Venice proper.

 

Venice would be just fine without the cruisers - they get plenty of visitors.

 

People who work in Hotels in Manhattan cannot afford to live there so what? Its the same in every country and its normal. Venice will continue to sink with or without cruisers and if people worry so much about it they should protest sewage system going right to canals first.

[GOLDENBONNY]

Where is your data to support this claim?

 

And what percentage is "most"? Is it 51%, or 75%, or 99%? Data, please.

 

There is a rich body of information on the environmental impacts and ongoing risks. That can be cited but I doubt it would make a lot of difference (not to mention that a lot of it is in Italian).

 

There is an attitude that I have heard voiced, by various people, that essentially if you spend enough money you should be able to buy your way out of any annoyance, from waiting on lines at museums or other sites all the way up to and beyond being the source of environmental damage.

 

One could argue the ethics of being able to buy your way out of any of this an unfair, but practically things like "skip the line" fees make sense for everyone. Somewhere along the spectrum we cross a line, but I don't know that I'd be able to identify where that line is. I just know that my desires in terms of sailing into/out of Venice are not more important than the city's right to protect itself from me.

 

I just want to see one!!! proved fact that cruise ship making damage to city in any way and I will be a cheer leader to stop it.

[euro cruiser]

If all the data pointed in one irrefutable direction and the path to resolution was clear and affordable there would be no debate. Things rarely work that way, however and reality has a way of creeping in. The wreck of the Costa Concordia, imagine the impacts in a tight area like Venice. Or, more recently, the wreck of the USS Fitzgerald. No cruise ship has as much sophisticated equipment as a US warship, yet they managed to get in trouble. Stuff happens and it all comes down to risk assessments and what you can live with.

 

 

Here's some reading material on the subject:

 

http://www.mareeonline.com/economia/grandi-navi-a-venezia-costi-e-ricavi-ambientali--227.htm (two experts on different sides of the issue, an environmentalist vs. the Port Authority)

 

http://atlanteitaliano.cdca.it/print/grandi-navi-nella-laguna-di-venezia

 

http://whc.unesco.org/en/soc/3633

[sippican]

Not sure where I stand on this issue becuase I see two very distinct considerations - environmental (encompassing historical preservation concerns) and economic.

Out of curiosity, does anyone have figures on how much revenue comes from port charges/taxes paid by the cruise lines?

A couple of points:

FWIW, the tours purchased through the cruise lines are facilitated by local operators - not cruise employees. A percentage is retained by the cruiseline, the balance goes to local vendors.

I believe most day visitors also avail themselves of at least one dining experience and a boatload of souvenirs! I agree with those who feel many cruisers also spend additional days pre-or post cruise. (Who cares is it is in a "cheap hotel"?) It is callous to conclude that residents "don't need" the revenue generated by cruise passengers. There are many places that face a similar dilemma, the revenue from cruise ships is not needed, but many benefit from it; if the ships are eliminated, some will lose jobs.

It is also arrogant to conclude that the crowds and tourist "rudeness" is due solely to cruise groups and that the elimination of that will result in a more pleasant atmosphere to those land guests who feel they are entitled to such.

We have visited Venice as both an overnight port of call, and on a three night pre-cruise extension. Both visits were wonderful.

Such a tough situation, without a clear solution.

[cruisemom42]

oh please , there is no prove that cruise ship has some affect to Venice . just another way to charge cruise company more. They do it every year.

 

I'm curious how much of a study you have made of this to come up with these definitive statements? I have read a lot on this topic as it particularly interests me.

 

Actually, there have been reports detailing several types of damage that result from the increase of these very large ships making their way through Venice's waterways.

 

First, the ships damage the wooden pilings that serve as the foundations supporting Venice's buildings. Since the number of cruise ships visiting Venice has increased dramatically in the last 10-15 years, there has also been a commensurate increase in the rate of damage/replacement of these foundation supports. The cause is the wash that the ships cause against the pilings. The cruise ships move slowly, but the deep swell and the significant amount of water displaced causes more damage than the superficial wakes created by smaller vessels in the canals.

 

Second, the lagoon in which Venice sits has a very fragile ecosystem. It is a shallow body of water that is home to a number of species that cannot live elsewhere. The increase in the number of large cruise ships has caused damage to the ecosystem as they pass through it going to and from Venice because the (relatively) deep draft of the ships causes sediment in the lagoon to be displaced and pushed out into the Adriatic. Thus the lagoon gets deeper and some species of fish, for example, that depend on the sediment, start to die out. This is one reason why progress on the proposed project to create a deep channel through the lagoon for cruise ships (to bypass Giudecca canal) has been riddled with controversy.

 

But hey, don't believe me. The World Monument Fund put Venice on its watch list in 2014 precisely because “large-scale cruising is pushing the city to an environmental tipping point and undermining quality of life for its citizens”. https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2017/may/26/venice-tourists-cruise-ships-pollution-italy-biennale

 

And UNESCO has threatened to put Venice on its list of endangered heritage sites if Italy fails to ban giant cruise ships from the city’s lagoon by 2017 -- although I believe Italy was able to get some kind of exemption or extension to this. UNESCO's concerns were cited as being "about cruise ships, mass tourism and damage to the fragile lagoon ecosystem."

 

Finally, there are certain amounts of "wear and tear" on the city infrastructure from visiting cruise ship passengers, including the water transportation system, on which the number of passengers can easily double when large ships are in port. The Veneto regional government subsidizes the ACTV (water transportation authority) to the tune of around 75 million euro annually -- money coming from Italian taxes, not from tourists.... Locals also rely on this transportation to get around, but the main vaporetti lines are often seriously overcrowded.

 

Most cruise passengers stay before or after cruise in Venice and pay top dollar for best Hotels an restaurants. I am not even touching how much cruise ships pay for economy to go to this port and how many people in port will stay with no job if cruise ships stop coming.

 

"Most" cruise ship passengers do not stay in Venice because they are not all on cruises that start or end there. While Venice is a busy port for embarkation/disembarkation, it also welcomes plenty of ships that are mid-sailing.

 

I've also read a study that showed the relatively small amount that cruise ship passengers spend in Venice per day. In fact, I've posted the link to it here on CC Italy forum in the past.

 

Finally, the Venezia Autentica (Authentic Venice) site has posted that the economic impact of the port represents 3-4% of the Venice municipality GDP. While that's not insignificant, I get the feeling most cruisers imagine the number is much higher.

 

But you seem to only want to think in terms that are black or white. In fact, real world problems are many shades of gray. What particularly concerns me at the moment about tourism in Venice is that the real 'Venice' is in danger of disappearing precisely because it is so beloved by tourists. It is a victim of its own beauty and history. The more tourists who come, the less Venice resembles the "Serenissima" that has attracted visitors for hundreds of years and the more she becomes like some Disney World attraction or open air mall.