Pre-Paid Gratuities/Tips

[DragonFlyPPS]

↑ That's a whole other topic which probably won't get any traction here. The subject of a gratuity/daily service charge/fee barely gets traction so expanding that into company practices which very few here would even be privy to is quite possibly a fruitless endeavor.

Thanks for info. :) Will pursue answer on my own. Safe travels everyone!

[DragonFlyPPS]

I just asked NCL to provide me flowdowns to where gratuities go. It should be public knowledge. Numerous people asked on board staff if their pay increased and they said "no". I have no problem paying gratuities as long as they go to the workers and not Corporate.

 

I would give cash to people to ensure how much I appreciated them rather than relying on Cruise line to Flowdown and not knowing where my $ went.

 

If anyone can confirm/deny, I welcome your views.

 

New here. Solo traveler.

:)

[swedish weave]

I just asked NCL to provide me flowdowns to where gratuities go. It should be public knowledge. Numerous people asked on board staff if their pay increased and they said "no". I have no problem paying gratuities as long as they go to the workers and not Corporate.

 

I would give cash to people to ensure how much I appreciated them rather than relying on Cruise line to Flowdown and not knowing where my $ went.

 

If anyone can confirm/deny, I welcome your views.

 

New here. Solo traveler.

:)

 

One ex officer who posts regularly on these boards said NCL handles the DSC funds as,a revenue stream.

 

Another poster who claims to have information from a girlfriend said NCL pockets almost half of the money.

 

I get info from crew because I help some of them with their financial questions, but won't post details here.

 

You can draw your own conclusions because NCL doesn't put out the info.

[Zenica]

Someone correct me if my interpretation is flawed but Haven butlers and concierge staff are NOT paid tips from the general daily service charge. From NCL, "Also, certain staff positions (e.g., concierge, butler, youth program staff and beverage service) provide service on an individual basis to only some guests and do not benefit from the overall service charge" so my query is this, why is my 2018 Haven booking charging me $475.72 for the daily service charge whereas my non Haven booking this year is $391.72? Same length of stay, same number of passengers and same vessel in fact.

[GUT2407]

One ex officer who posts regularly on these boards said NCL handles the DSC funds as,a revenue stream.

 

Another poster who claims to have information from a girlfriend said NCL pockets almost half of the money.

 

I get info from crew because I help some of them with their financial questions, but won't post details here.

 

You can draw your own conclusions because NCL doesn't put out the info.

 

Oh well if NCL rip off their staff why are passengers so frequently accused of stiffing the Crewe..???

[Two Wheels Only]

... so my query is this, why is my 2018 Haven booking charging me $475.72 for the daily service charge whereas my non Haven booking this year is $391.72? Same length of stay, same number of passengers and same vessel in fact.

$475.72 = $16.99pp x 7 days x 4 people over the age of 3.

$391.72 = $13.99pp x 7 days x 4 people over the age of 3.

 

DSC for suites is higher. If they were the same, non-suite guests would be paying for staff that don't even serve them.

[swedish weave]

Oh well if NCL rip off their staff why are passengers so frequently accused of stiffing the Crewe..???

 

On these boards, many have bought into the idea that the,DSC will reduce the crew salaries if you remove it.

 

The crew members are paid a contracted amount per ILO standards. The base is figured on 48 hour week and work over 48 hours is paid at 1.25 times the calculated hourly rate.

 

If the cruise line paid more than required, you can bet they would divulge that instead of being tight lipped about how the funds are distributed.

[Zenica]

$475.72 = $16.99pp x 7 days x 4 people over the age of 3.

$391.72 = $13.99pp x 7 days x 4 people over the age of 3.

 

DSC for suites is higher. If they were the same, non-suite guests would be paying for staff that don't even serve them.

 

I understand the math. What I am perhaps misunderstanding is the role of the butler and concierge. Do either of these

 

perform the steward responsibilities for the Haven?

[Two Wheels Only]

Do either of these perform the steward responsibilities for the Haven?

No, the steward is a different person than the butler & concierge.

[Air2Cruise]

Two nights ago a friend and I went down to guest services and had them remove the DSC from our accounts.

 

Guest Services was more than happy to do so.

 

 

This morning my friend and I both gave our cabin steward/housekeeper $150 cash, and headed for the airport.

 

 

Not impressed with NCL to be honest.

 

 

Vast majority of crew were very nice though. Ship was boring. Cruise director was obnoxious.

[Roslynn]

@NLH Arizona

I do not understand your question, the daily service charge is already forcibly factored in so six to one, half a dozen to the other. The result is the same. The consumers input in so far as to decide what gratuity to leave has been removed. This has the potential to foster underachievers while compelling the consumer to pay more for service that will then seem "above and beyond". Because of the nature of the daily service charge and when it is collected, I can imagine that divorce in time from when service is rendered to when gratuity is collected that some may tip cash at the time of service or daily because it is a more recognizable feeling of leaving gratuity. In other words, familiar.

 

Either way, I don't have any idea for a better system so the current one is as good as any based on the logic already presented by fshagan

 

My first cruise with NCL was two years ago on the Pearl. I found the staff to be universally amazing! I think they must enjoy working with NCL and the cruise line does a great job in recruiting, retention and training. Although I intially thought that the DSC seemed high and counterintuitive (e.g. being mandated rather than related directly to services received) by the end of the cruise I felt that it was well-earned.

[fshagan]

↑ @fshagan

 

I appreciate the factual segment of your post however I respectfully disagree with the final two sentences.

Gratuity ought to be commensurate with performance, I should not be beholden to some ethical quagmire

involving the employees pay structure, tax situation or union contract. All of which is immaterial and not relevant

to the purpose of gratuity.

 

It annoys me that gratuity has transitioned from something I base on my experience with that employee to something

based on a need to satisfy the cruise lines desire to not have to supplement the employees income. The ONLY reason

I find it tolerable is the explanation you provided in post #7. Given I have never cruised yet (51 days to go) I would not

have forecast how tedious it would be to do it any other way.

 

Reminds me of tipping in Vegas. I was always tipping based on the belief they were paid pittance as I believed all wait staff were paid $2.13 an hour. Not so in Vegas, it's $7.25 an hour. So you see, sometimes people are earning more than you may think.

 

I don't understand your point ... you said tipping should be "commiserate with performance" then said you were tipping in Las Vegas based on your belief that they earned $2.13 an hour, and I take it you are upset that you were tipping based on that? Is that when you switched to believing that gratuities should be given based on performance?

 

The workers wages don't affect my tipping .... I tip based on custom, the local expectation, and the service I receive. I tip the same amount in Arizona, where servers earn less than minimum wage, as I do in California, where servers earn $10,50 an hour. Tell me what to do, and I'll do it. If a waiter at a fancy restaurant is earning $150,000 I'll still tip her. If I can't do what's expected of me then I find something else to do. I'm not giving because I'm a charity, I'm giving a tip.

 

I understand the point of holding onto standards, and that is your right. I'm not arguing against or for leaving the charges on your bill. It's a personal decision made between you and the cruise line. I'm absolutely certain I am doing the right thing for me, but that doesn't have any bearing at all on your choices. I understand the points on all sides, but many of them are not based on reality (on both sides).

 

Finally, from my research and the comments from Swedish_Weave (who knows first hand) the daily service charge does not impact the worker's pay in any way. So it cannot be for the "company to avoid paying the employees" and it cannot be that you are "stiffing the employee" if you remove them. The employer and employee have agreed to working conditions and wages, and that's what is paid. Always. It doesn't matter if the ship is half empty and operating at a loss .... the workers still get paid their contractual amount. It wasn't always this way, but it is that way today.

 

For cruise lines, there is no tax advantage to paying this way (mainly because they don't pay Federal income tax, but even if they did, there is no tax advantage). There is no fancy bookkeeping that makes this money magically go "into their pockets" exempt from all the other reasons money doesn't go into their pockets (in other words, all money they collect is then spent on the various costs, and the excess is kept as cash on hand or paid out in dividends.)

[fshagan]

Forgive me if this has been addressed. Lots of controversy about gratuities. Does anyone have evidence of prepaid gratuities going directly to the employees? If so, no problem with that. Does their base pay increase per cruise? Does NCL "pocket" with no distribution? I want to express my gratitude to all staff who went beyond and above to make sure I had a great time. I want to make sure the "worker bees" get my cash rather than Corporate with questionable distribution.

 

NCL says the daily service charge supports employee incentive programs. There is some ambiguity because of the wording in their FAQ:

 

 

Staff members including complimentary restaurant staff, stateroom stewards and behind-the-scenes support staff are compensated by a combination of salary and incentive programs that your service charge supports.

 

If you believe the phrase "and incentive programs that your service charge supports" is independent and the "and" is simply a coordinating conjunction in the sentence, as I do, then the information that workers receive the amount their union has negotiated with NCL as salary ALWAYS (which is fact) can be reconciled. NCL could adjust the incentive programs mentioned .... "incentive programs that your service charge supports" ... based on the income from the daily service charge. I have worked in many jobs where an incentive program can be generous or paltry, either in bonus pay, other benefits such as gym memberships, etc. It never affects base pay, but can affect raises when negotiations come around again.

 

The workers have a contract that serves as an employment agreement, and it specifies their weekly pay, overtime pay, and amounts they will receive. They evidently are happy with that, as impressment of seafarers ended quite a while ago, and they keep coming back to work year after year.

 

CCL, DCL, NCLH, and RCCL are all public companies so you can see their annual reports and see exactly where the money goes. There isn't some secret pile of cash where Mr. Moneybags has slushed away the $13.95 per day per person on his cruise ships.

[DragonFlyPPS]

One ex officer who posts regularly on these boards said NCL handles the DSC funds as,a revenue stream.

 

Another poster who claims to have information from a girlfriend said NCL pockets almost half of the money.

 

I get info from crew because I help some of them with their financial questions, but won't post details here.

 

You can draw your own conclusions because NCL doesn't put out the info.

Still no response from NCL. Think I will remove pre-paid gratuities from my bill and give CASH to everyone I meet. Will leave CASH at bar, CASH at MDR, Buffet., CASH for Steward, etc. I will walk away knowing the hard working people actually got my $ and how much I appreciated them. Corporate out of it. JMO

[Zenica]

They evidently are happy with that, as impressment of seafarers ended quite a while ago, and they keep coming back to work year after year.

 

This could also be influenced by the personal economics of the employee. If in their native country, they'd earn x but NCL pays xx then they may not care that NCL collected XXX from the passengers and retained X for themselves

 

 

 

CCL, DCL, NCLH, and RCCL are all public companies so you can see their annual reports and see exactly where the money goes. There isn't some secret pile of cash where Mr. Moneybags has slushed away the $13.95 per day per person on his cruise ships.

 

Would their public filings require them to itemize the income to allow for a differentiation of base fare income vs excess dailer service charge income?

 

@DragonFlyPPS

 

When is your cruise scheduled? I'd be interested in knowing if this tactic actually works.

[Zenica]

I don't understand your point ... you said tipping should be "commiserate with performance" then said you were tipping in Las Vegas based on your belief that they earned $2.13 an hour, and I take it you are upset that you were tipping based on that? Is that when you switched to believing that gratuities should be given based on performance?

 

The workers wages don't affect my tipping .... I tip based on custom, the local expectation, and the service I receive. I tip the same amount in Arizona, where servers earn less than minimum wage, as I do in California, where servers earn $10,50 an hour. Tell me what to do, and I'll do it. If a waiter at a fancy restaurant is earning $150,000 I'll still tip her. If I can't do what's expected of me then I find something else to do. I'm not giving because I'm a charity, I'm giving a tip.

 

I understand the point of holding onto standards, and that is your right. I'm not arguing against or for leaving the charges on your bill. It's a personal decision made between you and the cruise line. I'm absolutely certain I am doing the right thing for me, but that doesn't have any bearing at all on your choices. I understand the points on all sides, but many of them are not based on reality (on both sides).

 

Finally, from my research and the comments from Swedish_Weave (who knows first hand) the daily service charge does not impact the worker's pay in any way. So it cannot be for the "company to avoid paying the employees" and it cannot be that you are "stiffing the employee" if you remove them. The employer and employee have agreed to working conditions and wages, and that's what is paid. Always. It doesn't matter if the ship is half empty and operating at a loss .... the workers still get paid their contractual amount. It wasn't always this way, but it is that way today.

 

For cruise lines, there is no tax advantage to paying this way (mainly because they don't pay Federal income tax, but even if they did, there is no tax advantage). There is no fancy bookkeeping that makes this money magically go "into their pockets" exempt from all the other reasons money doesn't go into their pockets (in other words, all money they collect is then spent on the various costs, and the excess is kept as cash on hand or paid out in dividends.)

 

Firstly, I said commensurate, not commiserate.

 

Secondly, no. My tipping practices at a restaurant don't typically factor in the employees wages as it isn't any of my business. I have just been cognizant of their base salary as most people are, although I was unaware that some localized areas or states have enacted laws to elevate that minimum hourly wage for tipped employees.

 

 

NCL states "Also, certain staff positions (e.g., concierge, butler, youth program staff and beverage service) provide service on an individual basis to only some guests and do not benefit from the overall service charge." This statement clearly bifurcates the daily service charge from those select employees. They create this distinction so those exempted employees aren't denied a tip due to a misconception on the part of a passenger but in doing so, they also establish the basis that some of that daily service charge is being paid to employees as a gratuity.

 

 

My issue with NCL is A) I have no control over what is paid to the employees I interact with or are serviced by. B) I have no idea how much of my $391 is actually going to employees.

 

 

I am not debating the need for a gratuity. If the cruise line has figured a way to move a huge operating cost directly onto the consumer in a separate line item from the fare, I am not going to assuage them to change that. I can imagine what would happen should airlines try this or if hotels tried it.

[swedish weave]

And it is none of your (or my) business what each employee makes, how NCL distributes the DSC incentive program, or what portion of the cruise fare goes to employee compensation. You basically have no issues at all.

Based on the quoted assumptions, it is nobody's business if a guest has the DSC removed.

[swedish weave]

Problem with that is that there are NO PREPAID GRATUITIES other than the 18% on some packages.

 

NCL website clearly disputes the above statement. Also, many TA's advertisement's don't agree.

[Zenica]

And it is none of your (or my) business what each employee makes, how NCL distributes the DSC incentive program, or what portion of the cruise fare goes to employee compensation. You basically have no issues at all.

 

It is well established....by NCL that the daily service charge is a gratuity. It is even addressed in their Q&A under the heading....wait for it.......

 

 

wait for it.......

 

 

Gratuity!

 

Yes folks, there we have it! The final word on the daily service charge! It IS a gratuity fee.

 

Soooo that said, I do have an issue, several in fact as I am accustomed to deciding what gratuity the services I receive are worth.

[yummysbakery]

It is well established....by NCL that the daily service charge is a gratuity. It is even addressed in their Q&A under the heading....wait for it.......

 

 

wait for it.......

 

 

Gratuity!

 

Yes folks, there we have it! The final word on the daily service charge! It IS a gratuity fee.

 

Soooo that said, I do have an issue, several in fact as I am accustomed to deciding what gratuity the services I receive are worth.

So I assume when you go to a land based restaurant you tip a certain percentage of your bill depending on the service level you received. So let's say your server has two tables which are the same number of people. And let's assume you order chicken but the other table orders steak. The level of service for both tables is identical. Let's also assume you tip 20% of your bill of $50.00. The steak table pays 20% of their $100.00 bill. The server receives twice the amount of tip from the steak table for an equal amount of work! How are you going to base on your cruise what each person is worth on board? The dsc/gratuity levels that playing field among all passengers in all categories. Now the haven and suite guests do pay more however they do receive a different/increased/personal level of service Imo. Dsc/gratuities for me is a great idea as it used to be you handed out envelopes with cash the night before your cruise ended to your room steward and dining personnel. The problem is far too many guests never gave anything to anyone for various reasons i.e they ran out of money or it was just too easy to walk away and not pay. The dsc/gratuities insures that all passengers pay their share except for the very few who have them removed who I believe act the same way on land! It is none of my business how much each employee makes nor how the company compensates them. If in the rare instance when the service isn't on par with what you think it should be and Ncl after being notified and given a chance to rectify the problem hasn't done so to your satisfaction you can request an adjustment in the dsc/gratuity. Smooth sailing whatever you decide!

 

Sent from my 2PQ93 using Tapatalk

[Two Wheels Only]

That "thing" that NCL currently charges $13.99pppd/$16.99pppd on most ships has been called both a service charge and a gratuity by NCL. Even when offered as a promo, NCL has used "free prepaid gratuities" and "free prepaid service charges".

 

Splitting hairs as to what that "thing" is called is pointless since NCL doesn't even care what it is called. Daily Service Charge, Discretionary Service Charge, gratuity, tip....it doesn't matter what people call it.

[Zenica]

So I assume when you go to a land based restaurant you tip a certain percentage of your bill depending on the service level you received. So let's say your server has two tables which are the same number of people. And let's assume you order chicken but the other table orders steak. The level of service for both tables is identical. Let's also assume you tip 20% of your bill of $50.00. The steak table pays 20% of their $100.00 bill. The server receives twice the amount of tip from the steak table for an equal amount of work! How are you going to base on your cruise what each person is worth on board? The dsc/gratuity levels that playing field among all passengers in all categories. Now the haven and suite guests do pay more however they do receive a different/increased/personal level of service Imo. Dsc/gratuities for me is a great idea as it used to be you handed out envelopes with cash the night before your cruise ended to your room steward and dining personnel. The problem is far too many guests never gave anything to anyone for various reasons i.e they ran out of money or it was just too easy to walk away and not pay. The dsc/gratuities insures that all passengers pay their share except for the very few who have them removed who I believe act the same way on land! It is none of my business how much each employee makes nor how the company compensates them. If in the rare instance when the service isn't on par with what you think it should be and Ncl after being notified and given a chance to rectify the problem hasn't done so to your satisfaction you can request an adjustment in the dsc/gratuity. Smooth sailing whatever you decide!

 

Sent from my 2PQ93 using Tapatalk

 

I tip at restaurants based on check total and while you may find that system flawed, until someone can come up with a better system, it is what's used throughout the US. I also base it on the pre-adjust amount before tax. For example, I have the Olive Garden Never Ending Pasta Pass. It means our check is always reduced but I tip as if the meal wasn't zeroed out.

 

As for the cruise, my main concern remains and you have not debunked it. By instituting a mandatory predetermined fee NCL has decided I'm either a child or incapable of determing for myself what tip is appropriate given the situation.

 

 

I've seen events or fairs where they have a sign that reads "Donations $5.00".

That is not a donation. It is a fee. A donation is what I see fit. The same is true of a genuine gratuity.

 

I will very rarely voice my dissatisfaction to any hotel, restaurant or other hospitality manager simply because I don't wish to be a target. I won't send food back if I can help it. I've read the horror stories about how "complainers" are treated behind the scenes. Do I really want to be a target by the person preparing my meals or is alone in my cabin? That last one isn't true...I place hidden cameras in every hotel room I stay at, I'll be doing the same here. Caught a housekeeper once taking cash from my jacket pocket. Good luck proving that without video.

 

I digressed. Bottom line, it won't change and I don't entirely like the forced gratuity concept although I do see how it streamlines the process.

[swedish weave]

Clearly?

 

Gratuities: https://www.ncl.com/faq#tipping

DSC: https://www.ncl.com/faq#service-charge

 

 

BTW What a TA says is 100% irrelevant, they can say whatever they want.

 

Removing the charges is permitted by NCL, so they must be aware that they are incorrectly describing the charges regardless of the ambiguous language they use to describe them.

 

The TA's are agents representing the cruise lines and they are using the language that the cruise line permits

 

Can anyone explain why NCL chooses to use various terms to describe the same charges.

 

It borders on false advertising and may be challenged.

[swedish weave]

Correct it is no one else's business if someone choose to do that, however they ought to do so in accordance with the guidelines provided "Guest satisfaction is the highest priority at Norwegian Cruise Line. We have structured a guest satisfaction program designed to handle any concerns about service or on-board product quickly and efficiently. However, in the event a service issue should arise during your cruise please let our on-board guest services desk staff know right away, so that we can address these in a timely manner. It is our goal to reach a satisfactory solution to any issue when it happens and make sure our guests can focus on enjoying their cruise. Should your concerns not be met with satisfaction you can adjust the charges", and not use a lame irrelevant excuse like I tipped in person.

 

It is still nobody's business what the guest decides to do about the charges.

 

As long as the cruise line permits removal of the charges, it is OK.

 

THE NCL SERVICE DESK HAS ADVISED A GUEST TO REMOVE THE CHARGES!!!

 

Altering the NCL website information to bolster an opinion seems a little unethical to me.

Edited October 9, 2017 by swedish weave

[Carole2313]

If anyone gets any tips from you, they must report them to the supervisor or they will be fired! Plus as I posted earlier, everyone that serve you gets a printout of their cabin #s that took off the tips.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums