Spoke to P&O regarding their 40% increase in automatic gratuities.

[AnOnymously]

Thanks for the heads up.

[Expat Cruise]

Tipping first came from the United Kingdom,as a group they have grown and moved away from it. The United States is now the King of the tipping World. As for cruise ships and why do they push this so hard? Because it saves them millions of dollars and adds to the profit of the cruise lines. The Cruise Lines do not care about the crews, the PR says "we are one big happy family" But in truth the only one the cruise lines are truly responsible to is the shareholders.

 

These fees are in place for one and only one reason they benefit the company.

[cruisecrew1974]

Do you people really believe that P&O Cruises is giving the money to the crew.

[Selbourne]

Do you people really believe that P&O Cruises is giving the money to the crew.

 

Yes. Whilst it suits some to claim otherwise, I simply cannot accept that a major company would defraud hundreds of thousands of customers and staff, because that is exactly what it would be doing if it didn’t. And if they were doing so, don’t you think that at least one of the thousands of staff would have whistle blown by now? You will probably claim that I am naive. I would suggest that anyone who thinks that P&O is secretly pocketing a service charge that they make to thousands of people every week and it has never been exposed is naive in the extreme.

[Expat Cruise]

Well am by no means naive, and will say that the Cruise Lines are using creative accounting to transfer millions of dollars with these charges. they have added them because it is for the benefit of the company, they do not care about the crews, the crew is only a tool to get to a end.

 

My goals as a shareholder in cruise lines and as a guest are not the same. As a shareholder, I care about the corporation staying within the law and returning maximum profits to me. As I guest I want the best overall value for my payment of funds. So yes from shareholders side great move by the cruise lines as a guest no benefits to me and I will never agree.

 

But it really doesn't matter as a guest if I am right or I'm 100% wrong. What matters here is these service charges are discretionary and voluntary therefore it is up to the Guest Cruising to make the choice of what they choose to do.

 

Past this respectfully I do not care what other passengers do, I will do exactly what I know to be correct. And we will have no problems or issues with anyone or the cruise line unless or until anyone thinks they can tell me how I must make a choice that is my choice and mine alone to make.

 

 

Yes. Whilst it suits some to claim otherwise, I simply cannot accept that a major company would defraud hundreds of thousands of customers and staff, because that is exactly what it would be doing if it didn’t. And if they were doing so, don’t you think that at least one of the thousands of staff would have whistle blown by now? You will probably claim that I am naive. I would suggest that anyone who thinks that P&O is secretly pocketing a service charge that they make to thousands of people every week and it has never been exposed is naive in the extreme.

[Selbourne]

Well am by no means naive, and will say that the Cruise Lines are using creative accounting to transfer millions of dollars with these charges. they have added them because it is for the benefit of the company, they do not care about the crews, the crew is only a tool to get to a end.

 

My goals as a shareholder in cruise lines and as a guest are not the same. As a shareholder, I care about the corporation staying within the law and returning maximum profits to me. As I guest I want the best overall value for my payment of funds. So yes from shareholders side great move by the cruise lines as a guest no benefits to me and I will never agree.

 

But it really doesn't matter as a guest if I am right or I'm 100% wrong. What matters here is these service charges are discretionary and voluntary therefore it is up to the Guest Cruising to make the choice of what they choose to do.

 

Past this respectfully I do not care what other passengers do, I will do exactly what I know to be correct. And we will have no problems or issues with anyone or the cruise line unless or until anyone thinks they can tell me how I must make a choice that is my choice and mine alone to make.

 

I am not saying that it doesn’t suit Cruise lines to operate this system. It clearly does. Neither am I saying that passengers shouldn’t be free to remove a discretionary service charge. I am simply challenging the assertion made by several people that P&O pockets this money and does not give it to the staff as they claim. That would be industrial scale fraud that no company could ever recover from if exposed and I cannot believe that they would take that risk.

[insanemagnet]

Who decided that we would pay a tip (gratuity, service charge) or whatever new title is invented !

 

They do need to invent a new title, because with the amounts they hope to collect it certainly isn't a "tip".

 

With the new Service Charge P&O are aiming to get in £48 million a year across the fleet, which would work out at roughly £16,000 a year tax free for each steward and waiter.

[davecttr]

So how much do P&O pay the steward or waiter per month? the basic amount before the 'service charge' amount is added.

 

the $600 per month Marella pay their stewards (no tips) works out at less than £1 per day per passenger. I don't think Marella staff are under paid as they seem to be happy and efficient, of course that happiness and efficiency results in some passengers tipping which means some may get considerably more than $600 per month

 

The way P&O do it must be because there are fiscal advantages to the company to do it that way that Marella don't worry about.

 

Thinks - do Carnival co get taxed on profit and/or turnover? If they are taxed on turnover 'tips' don't count as turnover and reduce their tax bill

[grapau27]

Yes. Whilst it suits some to claim otherwise, I simply cannot accept that a major company would defraud hundreds of thousands of customers and staff, because that is exactly what it would be doing if it didn’t. And if they were doing so, don’t you think that at least one of the thousands of staff would have whistle blown by now? You will probably claim that I am naive. I would suggest that anyone who thinks that P&O is secretly pocketing a service charge that they make to thousands of people every week and it has never been exposed is naive in the extreme.

I agree with you but i wonder if they themselves take a small service charge to administer the payment of gratuitys to their staff.

When credit card companies charged for transactions and people added tips onto their restaurant bills and paying by credit card i know of restaurants who deducted the fees from staff tips and thats why i always give cash tips in restaurant's.

[groovechick]

P&O no longer provide dedicated tipping envelopes. We just hand them the cash.

 

There are usually a couple of sheets of paper and envelopes in the in-cabin information pack - we use these if we give additional tips.

[Eglesbrech]

Yes. Whilst it suits some to claim otherwise, I simply cannot accept that a major company would defraud hundreds of thousands of customers and staff, because that is exactly what it would be doing if it didn’t. And if they were doing so, don’t you think that at least one of the thousands of staff would have whistle blown by now? You will probably claim that I am naive. I would suggest that anyone who thinks that P&O is secretly pocketing a service charge that they make to thousands of people every week and it has never been exposed is naive in the extreme.

 

I agree that no major company would purposefully set out to defraud customers however there are ways that companies can still make a lot of money from tips, service charges etc.

 

The following is an extract from the code of practice issued by UK gov to cover tips and service charges which was written to ensure that employers stopped using tips to make up a part of the minimum wage, which they used to do (which is now illegal re the minimum wage but not other aspects)

 

The code is very clear that those who manage tips or service charges must be transparent with their customers so that the customer knows exactly where their money goes. The extract is an example of type of disclosure that a business should make.

 

So a 30% deduction is perfectly acceptable but it is best practice to make the customer aware that it is happening. If however an organisation chooses not to tell their customer then the customer probably assumes that 100% of what they tip goes to the staff. I would anyway.

 

While this is best practice how often do you see hotels of restaurants in the UK actually advertising that they keep part of the tips paid by card - I have seen very few do so.

 

“We are committed to the Code of Best Practice on Service Charges, Tips, Gratuities and Cover Charges

 

For every £1 received in card tips, the staff keep 70p, 10p covers business costs and administration and 20p goes to the business [this includes deductions for breakages, till shortages and walk-outs].

All cash tips go to the staff.”

[terrierjohn]

Not quite perfectly, as it completely overlooked the fact that the P&O staff who benefit from the service charge are paid a lot less than those on the U.K. minimum wage, with whom they were compared in that post!

In the past I have felt exactly the same Selbourne and I have therefore always paid the auto tip/service charge. However if P&O can pay all their other staff a basic wage which does not need the passengers to top it up to satisfactory level, then why can't it pay all its staff the same way.

More recently the statements being made by P&O about pay and service rewards have suggested that P&O pay all their staff a fair wage, they also state that cash tips are kept by staff, which can and will lead to some staff receiving double tips. In addition there is confusion as to whether P&O make up the auto tip element where passengers have deleted it. All of this leads me to assume that the auto tip is just disappearing into the P&O coffers as part of their revenue stream, but without it adding to their tax liability.

If I am correct then the only ones losing out are those that pay the tips, and as the numbers reduce so they will have to pay more. I am therefore getting off this roundabout and making a saving on my cruise cost, until P&O eventually decide to include gratuities in their fares.

[Expat Cruise]

The lines are profiting from this setup. And again I will make the same claim I made in a open legal document when involved in a case against a giant cruise line. "This system is in place for the benefit of *********** (cruise line), it does not provide greater benefits to the staff members I want tipped in fact it provides less. The system is fraud committed against me" but they never replied of came after me because it would have involved them disclosing the workings of the con game against passengers they are involved in.

[pisces14]

I really don't know why this thread is continuing. I have realised from reading (most of it not all as people keep repeating the same thing) that some people won't tip and will satisfy their conscience because they are convinced P&O are ripping them off. They have no more idea than me what happens to the tips but I suppose it helps to be self righteous when you accept service from the staff knowing you aren't going to tip them.That's fine that's up to them. Hopefully P&O will eventually include the tips in the price of the cruise. Until such time we will continue to do what we have have always done pay the auto-tips and pay extra to those we think deserve it. My thanks to everyone who has helped me make that decision.

[daiB]

Yes. Whilst it suits some to claim otherwise, I simply cannot accept that a major company would defraud hundreds of thousands of customers and staff, because that is exactly what it would be doing if it didn’t. And if they were doing so, don’t you think that at least one of the thousands of staff would have whistle blown by now? You will probably claim that I am naive. I would suggest that anyone who thinks that P&O is secretly pocketing a service charge that they make to thousands of people every week and it has never been exposed is naive in the extreme.

 

 

 

Well at last some common sense. I fully agree that if this was a scam it would have been exposed some time ago with the encouraging of whistleblowing which is prevalent.

 

Those people arguing against it have their own agenda which comes down to saving them money by not paying tips.

 

Others have different axes to grind which are obscure.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

[Eglesbrech]

Well at last some common sense. I fully agree that if this was a scam it would have been exposed some time ago with the encouraging of whistleblowing which is prevalent.

 

Those people arguing against it have their own agenda which comes down to saving them money by not paying tips.

 

Others have different axes to grind which are obscure.

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

 

I agree with some but not all of what you are saying. If there was any fraud then yes someone would have highlighted it long before now.

 

That said read back the thread and you will find that many people don’t like the system but pay either the by auto tip or the full amount in cash so they are not all about “saving them money by not paying tips”. That is an oversimplification of the input to what is after all, a discussion forum.

[insanemagnet]

I really don't know why this thread is continuing. I have realised from reading (most of it not all as people keep repeating the same thing) that some people won't tip and will satisfy their conscience because they are convinced P&O are ripping them off. They have no more idea than me what happens to the tips but I suppose it helps to be self righteous when you accept service from the staff knowing you aren't going to tip them.That's fine that's up to them. Hopefully P&O will eventually include the tips in the price of the cruise. Until such time we will continue to do what we have have always done pay the auto-tips and pay extra to those we think deserve it. My thanks to everyone who has helped me make that decision.

 

Except we are not talking about "tips" - a small thank you for doing a good job, but the £48 million in Service Charges P&O is aiming to collect to pay the bulk of the stewards and waiters pay.

[Selbourne]

They do need to invent a new title, because with the amounts they hope to collect it certainly isn't a "tip".

 

With the new Service Charge P&O are aiming to get in £48 million a year across the fleet, which would work out at roughly £16,000 a year tax free for each steward and waiter.

 

Out of interest, what percentage of P&O customers are you assuming pay the service charge in order to arrive at that calculation? The reason that I ask is that we know from this thread, the countless other threads on the same subject and what we see on the ships, that a significant proportion of passengers don’t pay the service charge.

[Selbourne]

In the past I have felt exactly the same Selbourne and I have therefore always paid the auto tip/service charge. However if P&O can pay all their other staff a basic wage which does not need the passengers to top it up to satisfactory level, then why can't it pay all its staff the same way.

More recently the statements being made by P&O about pay and service rewards have suggested that P&O pay all their staff a fair wage, they also state that cash tips are kept by staff, which can and will lead to some staff receiving double tips. In addition there is confusion as to whether P&O make up the auto tip element where passengers have deleted it. All of this leads me to assume that the auto tip is just disappearing into the P&O coffers as part of their revenue stream, but without it adding to their tax liability.

If I am correct then the only ones losing out are those that pay the tips, and as the numbers reduce so they will have to pay more. I am therefore getting off this roundabout and making a saving on my cruise cost, until P&O eventually decide to include gratuities in their fares.

 

For what it’s worth, I completely agree with you on almost every point John. I am simply challenging the assertion made by some that the whole thing is a scam and that the staff don’t receive the service charge.

[pisces14]

Except we are not talking about "tips" - a small thank you for doing a good job, but the £48 million in Service Charges P&O is aiming to collect to pay the bulk of the stewards and waiters pay.

 

I think you are splitting hairs and you know exactly what I'm referring to. I realise it's now called a service reward. Call it a service reward or gratuities I'm not talking about a small thank you I'm talking about the £7pppn that some people won't be paying and as Dai says in order to save themselves money.

[Expat Cruise]

Really cannot accept that a major corporation would be involved in fraud? Please tell that tom all the people who lost millions with these companies or people. Every single one has fraud cases, so why do you think it can't happen here?

 

Bernie Madoff Investments

HealthSouth

Stanford Financial

Tyco Ltd.

Lance Armstrong / Livestrong Foundation

Enron Corp.

Arthur Andersen

Bearn Stearns Companies Inc.

Swissair

Parmalat

Banco Intercontinental o/ BANINTER

Global Crossing Ltd.

HIH Insurance

Martha Stewart

Deutsche Bank

Urban Bank

Jerome Kerviel /Société Générale Banking

Barclays

Bre-X

Barings Bank

Hewlett-Packard

Siemens

WorldCom

The Volkswagen

FIFA Corruption

Toshiba

Valeant's Secret Division

Turing Pharmceuticals / Martin Shkreli

 

Anyone who thinks the Cruise Lines are to big and honest to commit fraud and use creative accounting is really just being foolish.

 

Yes. Whilst it suits some to claim otherwise, I simply cannot accept that a major company would defraud hundreds of thousands of customers and staff, because that is exactly what it would be doing if it didn’t. And if they were doing so, don’t you think that at least one of the thousands of staff would have whistle blown by now? You will probably claim that I am naive. I would suggest that anyone who thinks that P&O is secretly pocketing a service charge that they make to thousands of people every week and it has never been exposed is naive in the extreme.

[majortom10]

Do you people really believe that P&O Cruises is giving the money to the crew.

 

Yes but not all of it P&O have failed to answer honestly to my questions and too many more people who have asked what happens to the money that is not given to staff because they have not received a high enough standard on the customer questionnaire or are under disciplinary.

[Eglesbrech]

Yes but not all of it P&O have failed to answer honestly to my questions and too many more people who have asked what happens to the money that is not given to staff because they have not received a high enough standard on the customer questionnaire or are under disciplinary.

 

Exactly. If they would just come out and be transparent about what happens to the money taken in auto tips then I suspect that these tipping threads would stop overnight (except for the odd moan when the price increases over the inflation rate)

 

That said P&O are not alone in this, as I mentioned above very few hotels and restaurants in the UK admit that some of the service charges or credit card payments go to the company for admin etc. The only ones who ever make a really bold statement about tips on the menu are those who give 100% to the staff.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Eglesbrech
typo

[insanemagnet]

I think you are splitting hairs and you know exactly what I'm referring to. I realise it's now called a service reward. Call it a service reward or gratuities I'm not talking about a small thank you I'm talking about the £7pppn that some people won't be paying and as Dai says in order to save themselves money.

 

But that is the exact point.

 

Some people keep insisting that the charge P&O is a replacement for a tip.

 

Well it might have started out that way but it certainly isn't any longer.

 

The bulk of the stewards and waiters pay is covered by this charge. That is not a tip and it is unhelpful and misleading to keep calling the charge one.

 

 

Out of interest, what percentage of P&O customers are you assuming pay the service charge in order to arrive at that calculation?

 

That was why I said "aimed to collect" so calculated what P&O added to cabin bills - number of passengers the fleet carries x 365 x £7 = £48 million requested.

[AnOnymously]

Yes but not all of it P&O have failed to answer honestly to my questions and too many more people who have asked what happens to the money that is not given to staff because they have not received a high enough standard on the customer questionnaire or are under disciplinary.

For me there are a couple of issues

1. That PO say that cash tips staff can keep, yet they know that many people remove AG and tip in cash, so if there is no record of that some people do get more from the system than others. Why do PO not ask for all tips to be pooled and taken account of when sharing out AG. Seems PO don't care about the unfairness to staff.

 

2. Why do they therefore not go back to just having cash tips. Some say they were introduced because of changes in dining, but as things are they will get less, see my point above, which still makes this unfair.

 

And just to add that they maintain that the majority of customers prefer this system, do not present any facts for that, and also seem not to account for those who do want to just reduce their costs and remove AG and would hate for it to be included in an upfront cost.

 

But I do think that there might be some tax advantages for PO this way and so is beneficial, but I am also sure that creative accounting could also play a part. Perhaps they do not increase these staff wages, they just put up the AG instead. Yes, staff gets it all, but PO's wages bill does not rise as much as it could if they paid the increase in wages.