New Carnival Smoking Policy

[mredandchis]

First off i am a smoker.  I remember when 1/2 the ships were a smoking area and smoking was allowed in cabins on the correct side of the ship.  I dont mind the current smoking policies and I follow them.  But even in the day the better half did not allow smoking in the room.  I was on Freedom of the seas a number of years ago shortly after the end of smoking in cabins.  Now when i go into ports i do smoke but I wont toss butts on the ground, i kill them and pocket the butt and then look for a trashcan.  But usually i end up with a couple in my pocket and when i change i drop them into the trash can in the room.  Well i was doing that and the steward reported me to management who sent me a nasty gram.  You had to scrape me off the ceiling.  I went to them and explained but they said they had to side with the room steward. With that I fired RC and will not ever step onto thier ship again.  I came to Carnival because they are a little better in the fairness department.  I sail about 3 weeks each year.  If the ship was non smoking i would not board.  If they accused me unjustly i would walk away.  I think most people that were accused of breaking any major carnival rule and it wasnt just would be upset.  But i would hope that this rule would wake up the smokers that do break the rules and send them up to "Deck 10"  smoking section for the camaraderie. We do have fun.

[sanmarcosman]

1 hour ago, mredandchis said:

 I remember when 1/2 the ships were a smoking area and smoking was allowed in cabins on the correct side of the ship.  

 

Correct side of the ship on decks with cabins? What cruise line was this? 

[mredandchis]

43 minutes ago, sanmarcosman said:

 

Correct side of the ship on decks with cabins? What cruise line was this? 

oh it was a long time ago when i was sailing RC.  

[chengkp75]

10 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

 

Surely you would rank the odds of a galley fire being detected quicker than a balcony butt fire.

Thank you for admitting smoking has a fire risk.

However, I would also rank using open flames under someone's control, and under controlled and regulated circumstances as a scenario where the possibility of starting a fire in the first place is less than your unsupervised potential cigarette butt, yet I rate it as a higher risk of causing a fire.  And a balcony fire started by a cigarette needs a supply of combustible material to continue to burn and spread.  As noted, since the Star Princess fire, all balcony furnishings and divider materials are low-combustible, so someone would have to have piled a large quantity of clothing or linens out there just waiting for the cigarette butt to land, in proper wind environment, to make a fire that is capable of spreading to another balcony or into a cabin.  Also as noted, and I believe I posted this previously in this thread, the Star Princess investigators attempted to ignite a Princess towel, the suspected most likely combustible material on the balcony, and under ideal, laboratory conditions, they were unable to do so.

[mredandchis]

17 hours ago, rukkian said:

Did you read what I said?  You said that since there has never been a fire while you were onboard, it means there is no risk.  That is anecdotal evidence.  It does not prove there is not risk.  If you think that having lit cigarette butts flying through the air landing on balconies (which does happen) is not a fire risk at all, you are fooling yourself at best.  There have been car fires from people flicking a cigarette out a window and having it come back in the back window and lighting something on fire, it is the same principle, it really does not matter if there has been a fire in the last 2 years or not on a cruise ship.  

 

Having things on fire thrown around is a bigger risk of fire than not having things on fire thrown around, period.

anecdotal evidence??? ie real life experience?  Now i will grant you there is a risk and I am definitly not in favor of someone throwing  lit cigarette butts thru the air but then there are other risks that are as high or higher like falling down the stairs onboard,  someone getting drunk and causing others personal injury,  etc etc etc,  There are many risks that we all take daily,  people should do what they can to minimize the risks of course.  But dont make mountains out of mole hills please.

 

[rukkian]

17 minutes ago, mredandchis said:

anecdotal evidence??? ie real life experience?  Now i will grant you there is a risk and I am definitly not in favor of someone throwing  lit cigarette butts thru the air but then there are other risks that are as high or higher like falling down the stairs onboard,  someone getting drunk and causing others personal injury,  etc etc etc,  There are many risks that we all take daily,  people should do what they can to minimize the risks of course.  But dont make mountains out of mole hills please.

 

Yes, anecdotal evidence is saying I was on a ship for many years and never saw a fire, so there must be no risk.  That is the same as saying I have never gotten a speeding ticket, so I must be immune, or somebody saying they have drove drunk plenty of times and never been in an accident, so it must be safe.

 

I am not claiming that this is something that is burning ships down all the time, just that somebody being on ships for many years and not personally witnessing something does not proof it does not happen.  The absence of proof does not prove a negative.

[mredandchis]

3 minutes ago, rukkian said:

Yes, anecdotal evidence is saying I was on a ship for many years and never saw a fire, so there must be no risk.  That is the same as saying I have never gotten a speeding ticket, so I must be immune, or somebody saying they have drove drunk plenty of times and never been in an accident, so it must be safe.

 

I am not claiming that this is something that is burning ships down all the time, just that somebody being on ships for many years and not personally witnessing something does not proof it does not happen.  The absence of proof does not prove a negative.

I agree but it does make a point that the risk is not high.  But yes there is always a risk.  In the smoking section up on deck there are these plastic type wicker chairs.  To me they look flammable, i dont know of they are or not.  I am not even sure i could catch one on fire with a cigarette,  now grant you, it could happen.  But then I cant see that even if i caught the chair on fire that the ship itself would catch fire. My limited experience is that steel doesnt burn easily.  BUT with saying all this I think the idea of anyone being careless with it and tossing a lit butt off the upper deck is so wrong on every level.  I saw 2 young guys standing at the rail in the smoking section and one flicked his butt over board.  Oh heck yes I got up and I told him.  there was an ashtray right behind him as well as one hanging on the rail.  

[rukkian]

7 minutes ago, mredandchis said:

I agree but it does make a point that the risk is not high.  But yes there is always a risk.  In the smoking section up on deck there are these plastic type wicker chairs.  To me they look flammable, i dont know of they are or not.  I am not even sure i could catch one on fire with a cigarette,  now grant you, it could happen.  But then I cant see that even if i caught the chair on fire that the ship itself would catch fire. My limited experience is that steel doesnt burn easily.  BUT with saying all this I think the idea of anyone being careless with it and tossing a lit butt off the upper deck is so wrong on every level.  I saw 2 young guys standing at the rail in the smoking section and one flicked his butt over board.  Oh heck yes I got up and I told him.  there was an ashtray right behind him as well as one hanging on the rail.  

Yeah, there are bad apples everywhere, and they make others look bad.  Most smokers (i assume) are respectful, but a handful of idiots can ruin things.

[sparks1093]

34 minutes ago, rukkian said:

Yes, anecdotal evidence is saying I was on a ship for many years and never saw a fire, so there must be no risk.  That is the same as saying I have never gotten a speeding ticket, so I must be immune, or somebody saying they have drove drunk plenty of times and never been in an accident, so it must be safe.

 

I am not claiming that this is something that is burning ships down all the time, just that somebody being on ships for many years and not personally witnessing something does not proof it does not happen.  The absence of proof does not prove a negative.

When you consider that the person offering that testimony works onboard ship and isn't talking about a week here and there then their testimony takes on greater weight. I don't have as much time working onboard ship as Cheng but I've several years of it and I too have not seen an appreciable fire started by cigarettes. Smoldering ashtrays was about the worst I ever encountered. As Cheng said, there is a risk associated with smoking but it isn't as high as many think it is.

Edited November 21, 2018 by sparks1093

[rukkian]

9 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

When you consider that the person offering that testimony works onboard ship and isn't talking about a week here and there then their testimony takes on greater weight. I don't have as much time working onboard ship as Cheng but I've several years of it and I too have not seen an appreciable fire started by cigarettes. Smoldering ashtrays was about the worst I ever encountered. As Cheng said, there is a risk associated with smoking but it isn't as high as many think it is.

It is still anecdotal evidence, period.  That is all I said.  I am not claiming it is a huge problem, just that somebody saying they never saw it does not proof it is not a risk no matter how many years they spent on boats.  Absence of proof does not prove a negative, period.  

[mredandchis]

10 minutes ago, rukkian said:

Yeah, there are bad apples everywhere, and they make others look bad.  Most smokers (i assume) are respectful, but a handful of idiots can ruin things.

i can assure you,  in my experience most are. even when we get one that shows up and says , I lite a cigarette on my balcony and got reported.   Usual response is , nope not allowed.  We smokers do get to have a lot of interaction with each other.  We create friendships and all.  Not saying non smokers dont but this smoking policy does put us together and over a period of days we get to know each other.  There are even, God forbid, ex smokers that pop up cause they miss that part of the cruise.  They do sit upwind lol.  But even drinkers, most are very cool but there is that bad apple that causes issues.  all i ask of non smokers is to let me go to my little smoking section up on top and dont give me a hassle because of my life style choices. That is all i ask.  The ship is running at 20 mph and i am outside, reducing risk. 

 

[rukkian]

3 minutes ago, mredandchis said:

i can assure you,  in my experience most are. even when we get one that shows up and says , I lite a cigarette on my balcony and got reported.   Usual response is , nope not allowed.  We smokers do get to have a lot of interaction with each other.  We create friendships and all.  Not saying non smokers dont but this smoking policy does put us together and over a period of days we get to know each other.  There are even, God forbid, ex smokers that pop up cause they miss that part of the cruise.  They do sit upwind lol.  But even drinkers, most are very cool but there is that bad apple that causes issues.  all i ask of non smokers is to let me go to my little smoking section up on top and dont give me a hassle because of my life style choices. That is all i ask.  The ship is running at 20 mph and i am outside, reducing risk. 

 

Yeah, I think most rational people are okay with smokers smoking where it is allowed.  If they did switch certain ships, or certain lines to non-smoking, it would be interesting to see how it would go.  Smokers are a small % at this point, but it is not just smokers that would not go, their significant others, family and friends that may want to sail with them would not sail either, which could be an issue with revenue.  I do personally have a problem if somebody is smoking upwind of my balcony, as I have gotten ash in my eyes and hair, and butts blown in, as well as having the smoke come right in our cabin.  That is not right imo.

 

As to the camaraderie, I get that, have gone on many smoke breaks over the years with smoking co-workers, because it is a social thing.

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, rukkian said:

It is still anecdotal evidence, period.  That is all I said.  I am not claiming it is a huge problem, just that somebody saying they never saw it does not proof it is not a risk no matter how many years they spent on boats.  Absence of proof does not prove a negative, period.  

And, again, please show me where I stated that there was no risk.  There is no post of mine in this thread that even mentions risk level until you brought it up.  I was stating my professional experience, and clarifying some common misconceptions about a particular cruise ship fire that is frequently blamed on smoking.  I was implying that the "safety" factor should not be as critical to people's condemnation of smoking as it appears from posts.

[rukkian]

15 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

And, again, please show me where I stated that there was no risk.  There is no post of mine in this thread that even mentions risk level until you brought it up.  I was stating my professional experience, and clarifying some common misconceptions about a particular cruise ship fire that is frequently blamed on smoking.  I was implying that the "safety" factor should not be as critical to people's condemnation of smoking as it appears from posts.

Not sure why you keep coming back on me with that.  You put out there that you had never seen it, I said that is anecdotal evidence and really does not mean much, and you seem to have a problem with that.  The post you are replying to was to somebody else (not you), that was using your post to prove it is not a risk.  

 

I get that you did not specifically say zero risk, would it be better if I said you used anecdotal evidence as proof to diminish the amount of risk?  It is still anecdotal evidence.  Even if you have been on ships for 100 years straight, it is still a minuscule number of ships compared to all the ships out there.  

 

I am not even claiming it is a huge risk.  I just don't believe that anecdotal evidence proves anything and that lack of evidence does not prove a negative.  I don't really care about the fire risk at all.  I only really care if somebody is causing myself or my family to have to breath in smoke, ash, and have lit buts landing on our balcony that we paid for.  It is not much different than somebody dumping drinks off their balcony, and having it spray on others balcony.  It is inconsiderate at best.

[jordanaire]

40 minutes ago, rukkian said:

Not sure why you keep coming back on me with that.  You put out there that you had never seen it, I said that is anecdotal evidence and really does not mean much, and you seem to have a problem with that.  The post you are replying to was to somebody else (not you), that was using your post to prove it is not a risk.  

 

I get that you did not specifically say zero risk, would it be better if I said you used anecdotal evidence as proof to diminish the amount of risk?  It is still anecdotal evidence.  Even if you have been on ships for 100 years straight, it is still a minuscule number of ships compared to all the ships out there.  

 

I am not even claiming it is a huge risk.  I just don't believe that anecdotal evidence proves anything and that lack of evidence does not prove a negative.  I don't really care about the fire risk at all.  I only really care if somebody is causing myself or my family to have to breath in smoke, ash, and have lit buts landing on our balcony that we paid for.  It is not much different than somebody dumping drinks off their balcony, and having it spray on others balcony.  It is inconsiderate at best.

 

"Inconsiderate at best" says it all. Having consideration for others, whether on a ship or at home, goes a long, long way! Treat others as you would want to be treated.

[sparks1093]

50 minutes ago, rukkian said:

Not sure why you keep coming back on me with that.  You put out there that you had never seen it, I said that is anecdotal evidence and really does not mean much, and you seem to have a problem with that.  The post you are replying to was to somebody else (not you), that was using your post to prove it is not a risk.  

 

I get that you did not specifically say zero risk, would it be better if I said you used anecdotal evidence as proof to diminish the amount of risk?  It is still anecdotal evidence.  Even if you have been on ships for 100 years straight, it is still a minuscule number of ships compared to all the ships out there.  

 

I am not even claiming it is a huge risk.  I just don't believe that anecdotal evidence proves anything and that lack of evidence does not prove a negative.  I don't really care about the fire risk at all.  I only really care if somebody is causing myself or my family to have to breath in smoke, ash, and have lit buts landing on our balcony that we paid for.  It is not much different than somebody dumping drinks off their balcony, and having it spray on others balcony.  It is inconsiderate at best.

I wasn't using Cheng's post to prove anything, I was posting in support of his experience and professional observations which I believe fall into a category different than anecdotal evidence. In any event our experience is borne out by the other evidence that is out there regarding the issue. And regarding your last statement throwing anything over the side is much more than inconsiderate, it is a violation of international law.

[cruise77]

Wonder why they don't sell one side of ship balconies to smokers and other side to non smokers.  Seems that would solve the problem.

[sanmarcosman]

1 hour ago, cruise77 said:

Wonder why they don't sell one side of ship balconies to smokers and other side to non smokers.  Seems that would solve the problem.

Because they wouldn't get a perfect fill and there would be many empty cabins not generating revenue. 

[Seadog & Sea Hag]

Easier to ban smoking 

[CruiseHealing]

The Sunshine had a cabin fire in August 2016.  They company determined that a cigarette was thrown from an upper floor and landed on a towel on the balcony of Deck 6.  The fire activated the fire door and fire surpression system.  The damage was minor but it started with a cigarette landing on a towel.

 

About three years ago we were on a balcony aft deck 5.  While sitting there a cigarette butt land right next to me.  So, if I left a towel in that area when I was not on the balcony, a fire could have occurred.  I should note we do not leave an unattended towel on our balcony..

Edited November 23, 2018 by CruiseHealing

[CruiseHealing]

 Three of the last four balconies we have had smokers next to us that like to use the balcony as their personal smoking area.  DW will not use the balcony if a smokers is next to us and we get the downwind cigarette smoke.  So, the use of the balcony is hindered by a next door neighbor smoking.  When this happen our balcony cabin becomes an overpriced ocean view cabin.

 

we have complained every time.  The previous comment that complaining  could create an uncomfortable time.  Not really!  The last time we had the room steward come into our room when the neighbor was smoking.  They were served a letter by guest service.  GS called me later and told me that they spoke to them and that the next time a fine was going to on their bill.  

 

So, after this event was resolved, every time we went out on the balcony, they would rush back inside their cabin because they knew we won't going to tolerate their rule breaking.  Take a stand.  Don't let someone devalue your balcony!

[BlerkOne]

2 hours ago, cruise77 said:

Wonder why they don't sell one side of ship balconies to smokers and other side to non smokers.  Seems that would solve the problem.

 

Because smokers are a small minority.  

[BlerkOne]

On 11/20/2018 at 6:41 AM, FSHLOT said:

True, but if you falsely accuse someone there MAY be some bad blood between neighbors. Good luck with that!!

 

Is that some sort of threat?  A rhetorical question.

 

I don't have to prove someone was smoking, I just have to report it. And another reason why the rules for vaping are the same as for smoking. 

 

 

[jimgpayne]

On 11/19/2018 at 8:52 PM, fyree39 said:

People are going to sneak cigarettes and weed on their balconies.  It's just going to happen.  If those sneaks would simply vape with a nice cherry or berry flavor, I think people won't realize what they're smelling.  I can see them calling security.  "I smell GRAPES on my balcony!  Someone nearby has GRAPES! It must stop!"

 

The cheaters cheat and the sneaks sneak.

 

The only problem is that vaping is also banned under the smoking policy.

[chengkp75]

9 hours ago, CruiseHealing said:

The Sunshine had a cabin fire in August 2016.  They company determined that a cigarette was thrown from an upper floor and landed on a towel on the balcony of Deck 6.  The fire activated the fire door and fire surpression system.  The damage was minor but it started with a cigarette landing on a towel.

 

About three years ago we were on a balcony aft deck 5.  While sitting there a cigarette butt land right next to me.  So, if I left a towel in that area when I was not on the balcony, a fire could have occurred.  I should note we do not leave an unattended towel on our balcony..

I now remember this incident, but I haven't found anything that says "it was determined" to be a cigarette from another balcony or even from someone on that balcony smoking.  I see things saying "it is surmised" and speculation on social media, but naturally given the small extent of the fire, no official report.  If someone can point me in the direction of a definitive cause of the fire, I'd appreciate it.  However, given that the fire doors closed, this shows that there is fire detection equipment on the balconies, reducing the risk of fire, and that the sprinkler system is present on the balconies as well, again reducing risk.

 

And the one fact that I still hold to regarding these suppositions about a cigarette starting a towel on fire, was that during the Star Princess fire investigation, under laboratory conditions, the fire investigators could not prove their main point of their scenario by getting a towel to ignite from a cigarette, placed against the towel.