Rare cruisemom42 Posted March 15, 2019 #901 Share Posted March 15, 2019 (edited) 53 minutes ago, terrydtx said: I love the new Premium Economy being offered now by most airlines on long haul and International flights, if offers something much better than main cabin, but affordable by the masses. 53 minutes ago, RDC1 said: the market shows that the cruise industry is much farther from the tipping point. as far as airlines you have had numerous failures in the discount arena. The majors have improved some, but mostly tied to increasing revenue in the business class and premium economy area. very few amenities have been added back in economy. most food must still be purchased. baggage fees still exist. seat spacing still narrow and or still shrinking. so how exactly have they been enhancing the economy product For one thing, they are segmenting the economy section and offering an Economy Plus or Premium Economy that is far from the pricey Business or First class options but do provide a little relief and return to some amenities that are no longer offered in Economy -- these offer by carrier but often include free drinks, higher quality snacks or meals, and more space, priority boarding, etc. These seem to be pretty popular offerings (see quote from terrydx above yours). If the airlines (often used as a comparison to the cruise industry, although the products are very different) can do this, I'd be interested in seeing a cruise line give it a go. While I'd like a step up and/or a return to previous levels, I am not really the target market for premium (business class) or luxury (First class) cruising, at least not on every cruise. Premium Economy would be fine with me. Edited March 15, 2019 by cruisemom42 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDC1 Posted March 15, 2019 #902 Share Posted March 15, 2019 15 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said: For one thing, they are segmenting the economy section and offering an Economy Plus or Premium Economy that is far from the pricey Business or First class options but do provide a little relief and return to some amenities that are no longer offered in Economy -- these offer by carrier but often include free drinks, higher quality snacks or meals, and more space, priority boarding, etc. These seem to be pretty popular offerings (see quote from terrydx above yours). If the airlines (often used as a comparison to the cruise industry, although the products are very different) can do this, I'd be interested in seeing a cruise line give it a go. While I'd like a step up and/or a return to previous levels, I am not really the target market for premium (business class) or luxury (First class) cruising, at least not on every cruise. Premium Economy would be fine with me. that is exactly my point the airlines have not improved economy service, at least not the US majors in any really meaningful way, but have introduced new, higher cost services in the gap between business and economy. Cruise lines have moved in the same direction with their ship within a ship concepts. Just like airlines cruiseline have started with upgrading higher end fares, like airlines put their money into business class offerings. in many ways you already have some ability to upgrade at lower fares, in that you can pay a little more and eat in the specialty restaurants instead of the med. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiidan Posted March 15, 2019 #903 Share Posted March 15, 2019 12 hours ago, RDC1 said: If you consider that being able to reduce the rate of fare increase is a form of lower passenger costs, then yes. I would suspect that the change is as much if not more related to the impact of the additional entrees on staff workload and dining room/kitchen flow as much as it has to do with food waste. That is why they are targeting the MDR and not the buffet. Every additional entree has to be plated, transferred, served, cleared, etc. All of that impacts the serving staff and the kitchen, especially if they are served one after another. Here is a thought.... why not make a pre-fix menu, like many restaurants offer world wide with one or 2 choices for each course Don't like tonight's menu go to the buffet and make your own !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiidan Posted March 15, 2019 #904 Share Posted March 15, 2019 9 minutes ago, RDC1 said: that is exactly my point the airlines have not improved economy service, at least not the US majors in any really meaningful way, but have introduced new, higher cost services in the gap between business and economy. Cruise lines have moved in the same direction with their ship within a ship concepts. Just like airlines cruiseline have started with upgrading higher end fares, like airlines put their money into business class offerings. in many ways you already have some ability to upgrade at lower fares, in that you can pay a little more and eat in the specialty restaurants instead of the med. You get what you pay for...still holds true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare *Miss G* Posted March 15, 2019 #905 Share Posted March 15, 2019 I don’t think HAL is the target line for food waste but I do understand why they chose it for testing. If they are looking to increase revenue on HAL then I think they should start with their Excursions office. When passengers go out of their way to book alternate options then that is a good indication that their product is not only overpriced... it is seriously lacking. And that includes their surly, defensive, and anti customer-oriented staff too. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare cruisemom42 Posted March 15, 2019 #906 Share Posted March 15, 2019 18 minutes ago, RDC1 said: that is exactly my point the airlines have not improved economy service, at least not the US majors in any really meaningful way, but have introduced new, higher cost services in the gap between business and economy. Cruise lines have moved in the same direction with their ship within a ship concepts. Just like airlines cruiseline have started with upgrading higher end fares, like airlines put their money into business class offerings. in many ways you already have some ability to upgrade at lower fares, in that you can pay a little more and eat in the specialty restaurants instead of the med. At some point, the airline and ship comparison has to be set aside. The ship-within-a-ship concept is different than the premium economy concept in my analogy because I am comparing each category on a plane to a different cruise line category. (as examples: Economy = Carnival, NCL; Premium Economy: HAL, Celebrity; Business: Oceania, Azamara; First Class: Crystal, Seabourn, etc.) To me, the ship-within-a-ship is different because people on board ships (unlike on airplanes) move around the ship to dine, be entertained, enjoy the pool, shop, etc. It's a weird amalgam of wanting to be in a small enclave on a larger ship rather than wanting to be on a ship that only offers a luxury experience. I have to admit it baffles me a bit, and I'm not a big fan. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDC1 Posted March 15, 2019 #907 Share Posted March 15, 2019 24 minutes ago, Hawaiidan said: Here is a thought.... why not make a pre-fix menu, like many restaurants offer world wide with one or 2 choices for each course Don't like tonight's menu go to the buffet and make your own !!! Then it would truly be hotel banquet quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlsSalt Posted March 15, 2019 #908 Share Posted March 15, 2019 29 minutes ago, Hawaiidan said: Here is a thought.... why not make a pre-fix menu, like many restaurants offer world wide with one or 2 choices for each course Don't like tonight's menu go to the buffet and make your own !!! You may be on to something. But another thought entered my mind - maybe the current "prix fixe" equivalent of the Gala Night benefit is actually a disguised way to give the kitchen staff a few "nights off" having a more limited menu and everything ordered at once? They are down there working 24/7 at the same pace, except for Gala Night which offers fewer options and set order. Wild speculation here. Maybe they secretly know Gala Night will reduce the numbers coming to the dining room, giving them a bit of a midweek breather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiidan Posted March 15, 2019 #909 Share Posted March 15, 2019 1 hour ago, RDC1 said: Then it would truly be hotel banquet quality. I guess you have never seen The French Laundry, PIC or Troigoso. menu all Mich *** John Tovey at Miller Howe in the 70-80s was renown. The Hobbit in So calif.... Gives the chef the ability to focus on a cohesive experience.... If thats Banquet food...????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiidan Posted March 15, 2019 #910 Share Posted March 15, 2019 1 hour ago, OlsSalt said: You may be on to something. But another thought entered my mind - maybe the current "prix fixe" equivalent of the Gala Night benefit is actually a disguised way to give the kitchen staff a few "nights off" having a more limited menu and everything ordered at once? They are down there working 24/7 at the same pace, except for Gala Night which offers fewer options and set order. Wild speculation here. Maybe they secretly know Gala Night will reduce the numbers coming to the dining room, giving them a bit of a midweek breather. Even better....do away with the concept of Gala night, an event that draws both praise and contempt for manners and dress faux pas . Make every night a pre fix. Why not? you have several other options to eat if you do not care for that menu that night. Thomas Keller once said a dish is best done with a finesse. With a limited menu of say 6 courses and 3 deserts the kitchen can focus and finesse. Given focus very simple ingredients can be elevated to astounding things. Take the De Libjer menu good example. . What one has to realize there there are those who equate quality with quality. There are several distinct groups who sail. Those who cruise based on all you can eat . Those that cruise to travel and see new places and food is just parsley on the plate, so to speak. Then there are those who cruise for the pleasure of ocean travel and the romance of the sea. For those who want to try new things a tasting menu is the best experience....You get maybe 6-8 courses to choose 5 from and be surprised at the experience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlsSalt Posted March 15, 2019 #911 Share Posted March 15, 2019 18 minutes ago, Hawaiidan said: I guess you have never seen The French Laundry, PIC or Troigoso. menu all Mich *** John Tovey at Miller Howe in the 70-80s was renown. The Hobbit in So calif.... Gives the chef the ability to focus on a cohesive experience.... If thats Banquet food...????????? Troigros (Typo?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiidan Posted March 15, 2019 #912 Share Posted March 15, 2019 1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said: At some point, the airline and ship comparison has to be set aside. The ship-within-a-ship concept is different than the premium economy concept in my analogy because I am comparing each category on a plane to a different cruise line category. (as examples: Economy = Carnival, NCL; Premium Economy: HAL, Celebrity; Business: Oceania, Azamara; First Class: Crystal, Seabourn, etc.) To me, the ship-within-a-ship is different because people on board ships (unlike on airplanes) move around the ship to dine, be entertained, enjoy the pool, shop, etc. It's a weird amalgam of wanting to be in a small enclave on a larger ship rather than wanting to be on a ship that only offers a luxury experience. I have to admit it baffles me a bit, and I'm not a big fan. I think your categories are very accurate. I dont think the ship within a ship works cruises. It works for airplanes because seldom are people on a plane for over 12 hours.. On a ship you on for a week to weeks. Creating a ship within a ship is creating a class system that becomes the have and the have not's. over time resenting each other....Celebrity does this and frankly its both silly and disgusting depending on how you look at it. Its one reason I wont sail with that line. The Premium and above lines carefully avoid this and treat ALL passengers out of their cabins pretty much the same , Oh some give some pre booking reservations but once on board people pretty much are all treated as first class passengers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDC1 Posted March 15, 2019 #913 Share Posted March 15, 2019 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Hawaiidan said: I guess you have never seen The French Laundry, PIC or Troigoso. menu all Mich *** John Tovey at Miller Howe in the 70-80s was renown. The Hobbit in So calif.... Gives the chef the ability to focus on a cohesive experience.... If thats Banquet food...????????? Never said that they were. However, there is a big difference between cruise line quality and Michelin quality. Cruise line food is and has been for a while hotel banquet quality with a larger selection. Reducing that to two selections with the current quality would make it true hotel banquet. On the other hand Michelin restaurants that follow the set menu format are an entire different ball game then cruise lines. I doubt that Michelin chef's would maintain their current quality with meals being delivered in the thousands compared to the size of the venue's where they are currently able to deliver the quality that they do. Also Michelin chef's usually work with very fresh ingredients compared to cruiselines chef's dealing with products that are shipped around the world and loaded to supply a cruise lasting weeks. Not exactly the same raw products. If you want to talk Michelin my favorites are Eleven Madison Park in New York, (seats around 100, if you include the private dining rooms), La Degustation in Prague (seats 35), Quintessence in Tokyo. Edited March 15, 2019 by RDC1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiidan Posted March 15, 2019 #914 Share Posted March 15, 2019 8 minutes ago, OlsSalt said: Troigros (Typo?) Perdon.....TROISGROS.......in Oches now France Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiidan Posted March 15, 2019 #915 Share Posted March 15, 2019 14 minutes ago, RDC1 said: Never said that they were. However, there is a big difference between cruise line quality and Michelin quality. Cruise line food is and has been for a while hotel banquet quality with a larger selection. Reducing that to two selections with the current quality would make it true hotel banquet. On the other hand Michelin restaurants that follow the set menu format are an entire different ball game then cruise lines. I doubt that Michelin chef's would maintain their current quality with meals being delivered in the thousands compared to the size of the venue's where they are currently able to deliver the quality that they do. If you want to talk Michelin my favorites are Eleven Madison Park in New York, (seats around 100, if you include the private dining rooms), La Degustation in Prague (seats 35), Quintessence in Tokyo. Yes.... serving a thousand or so is a bit of a challenge. But a cruise line at those numbers is limited as you said . I do think that if the quantity of food choice were reduced it would act to increase the potential quality. As your an appreciator of cuisine I am sure your aware that presentation is a very important element as we eat with our eyes and what they tell us. Thus would you not think that given a more limited menu that the kitchen could devote more time into presenting things in an exciting way more easily ? Sadly, HAL is just not equipped to do more unless it chooses to do less. You also bring up a very big problem... that is as ships get bigger and bigger ( larger than the NAVY's Carriers) that for every rise in size comes a loss in quality of provisions that the ship can store and serve It seems to me that once you cross the 1000 pax line things start to go down hill on a steep curve. Thats my take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmazedByCruising Posted March 15, 2019 #916 Share Posted March 15, 2019 20 minutes ago, Hawaiidan said: Creating a ship within a ship is creating a class system that becomes the have and the have not's. over time resenting each other....Celebrity does this and frankly its both silly and disgusting depending on how you look at it. Why would you resent each other? One flew in Business Class, the other has a better beverage card, an one tells about his condo in Manhattan. Anyway, as long as there are insides and balconies, and midships and aft, there will always be a "class system" and I wouldn't know what ships could do about that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiidan Posted March 15, 2019 #917 Share Posted March 15, 2019 1 minute ago, AmazedByCruising said: Why would you resent each other? One flew in Business Class, the other has a better beverage card, an one tells about his condo in Manhattan. Anyway, as long as there are insides and balconies, and midships and aft, there will always be a "class system" and I wouldn't know what ships could do about that. When you divide people into classes it works on a airplane or train. The classes are not together long enough to develop any jealousy or envy with the situation, It is human nature to , when confronted with a divisive system to develop feeling about it. Over days and weeks , as on a ship animosity can surface to those denied things that they see other getting I have flown in premium air classes and you get a fair number of looks as passengers seated in lesser areas pass by I disagree that there is a class system among insides, mid ship aft cabins. As they are all treated the same outside their cabin, get the same meals, share the same deck, etc. What I object to is the overt class separations like Cunard and Celebrity where you have different dining, decks, activities, entrances and others are kept at a distance... Selling the concept of I am better than you .... see how I am treated... its a caste system. at sea. I will state again, that is why I prefer premium lines, not because I think I am better, but because everyone gets the same experience with no boundaries of barriers. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmazedByCruising Posted March 15, 2019 #918 Share Posted March 15, 2019 5 minutes ago, Hawaiidan said: It is human nature to , when confronted with a divisive system to develop feeling about it. 4 minutes ago, Hawaiidan said: I will state again, that is why I prefer premium lines, not because I think I am better, but because everyone gets the same experience with no boundaries of barriers. If I understand you correctly, everyone should be "in the same boat" when they are on the same ship. I see you point, but very vaguely. 🙂 People who have cruised 200 times will meet the Captain, get medals, and a first timer doesn't know the medals exist. I didn't realize X had a restaurant and a club that was off limits for humble people like me, but I really didn't care. Just because I could book 2 adjacent rooms in "Concierge class" I booked those balconies and to this day I don't really know what I would have missed when booking a "normal" balcony. Some people may not be able to rent an alcove and become jealous. Or spend the money to eat in a specialty restaurant while their neighbours do. Or simply choose not to.. Basically, it's not a school camp where it actually would be divisive if the rich kids got better meals than the poor kids. It's just different people making different choices. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawaiidan Posted March 15, 2019 #919 Share Posted March 15, 2019 15 minutes ago, AmazedByCruising said: If I understand you correctly, everyone should be "in the same boat" when they are on the same ship. I see you point, but very vaguely. 🙂 People who have cruised 200 times will meet the Captain, get medals, and a first timer doesn't know the medals exist. I didn't realize X had a restaurant and a club that was off limits for humble people like me, but I really didn't care. Just because I could book 2 adjacent rooms in "Concierge class" I booked those balconies and to this day I don't really know what I would have missed when booking a "normal" balcony. Some people may not be able to rent an alcove and become jealous. Or spend the money to eat in a specialty restaurant while their neighbours do. Or simply choose not to.. Basically, it's not a school camp where it actually would be divisive if the rich kids got better meals than the poor kids. It's just different people making different choices. I think your deluding your self..... concierge class gets different treatment etc. I guy in a normal balcony would not only not be getting the treatment you are...he would not be allowed to ! Over time might he come to resent that ? Human nature. By the way I sat down the other day and thought about the Captain..... you know, I don't I have even a clue who he is!. What is more, is that is possible he dos not know who I am! . Could it be that neither of us has any real life long pent up desire to meet the other ? Maybe I will pass.....I hope I don't disappoint and hurt his feeling....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare kazu Posted March 15, 2019 #920 Share Posted March 15, 2019 13 minutes ago, Hawaiidan said: I think your deluding your self..... concierge class gets different treatment etc. I guy in a normal balcony would not only not be getting the treatment you are...he would not be allowed to ! Over time might he come to resent that ? Human nature. Hmm, you may be the one deluding yourself. I had concierge supposed service on Oceania and Celebrity. Hours were limited and they were of little help. I was told to go and do it myself. I was NOT impressed and stopped using both. If they were concierges, they weren't very good ones IMO. Oh and for you reference I was in a PH on Oceania. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmazedByCruising Posted March 15, 2019 #921 Share Posted March 15, 2019 8 minutes ago, Hawaiidan said: I think your deluding your self..... concierge class gets different treatment etc. I guy in a normal balcony would not only not be getting the treatment you are...he would not be allowed to ! Over time might he come to resent that ? Human nature. Then please explain what different treatment I got so I can look down on the humble balcony people in retrospect Everyone who can afford to be on X or HAL or similar is already in the tiny proportion of humanity who can even afford a upscale cruise. One may be on the very bottom of the, let's say 3%, someone else could be in the top of the 2% people. But it's about choices, not money. Everyone on the ship can simply not buy a car and move up a level or decide it's not worth the money. 10 minutes ago, Hawaiidan said: By the way I sat down the other day and thought about the Captain..... you know, I don't I have even a clue who he is!. What is more, is that is possible he dos not know who I am! . Could it be that neither of us has any real life long pent up desire to meet the other ? Maybe I will pass.....I hope I don't disappoint and hurt his feeling....... Queen Elizabeth is supposed to have said, "Dinner with the Captain? Why should I want to dine with the help?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare cruisemom42 Posted March 15, 2019 #922 Share Posted March 15, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, AmazedByCruising said: Why would you resent each other? One flew in Business Class, the other has a better beverage card, an one tells about his condo in Manhattan. Anyway, as long as there are insides and balconies, and midships and aft, there will always be a "class system" and I wouldn't know what ships could do about that. Here is my view, which may or may not reflect reality but it is the way we have always felt as long-time cruisers. Traditionally on leisure cruises (not talking about the ocean liners of old...) people paid for different categories of cabins according to their wishes and means, but once you stepped out of your cabin, for the most part everyone was on equal footing. There were no spaces where one "class" had exclusive access and other classes did not. There were no special reserved decks or pool areas for suites, nor any reserved seating at shows and certainly not a private dining room. Even when specialty restaurants were introduced later in the game, everyone had an equal shot at booking them --- suites for example did not get priority. We were often in the lower echelons by cabin type, but always felt upon leaving our cabin that we received equal treatment, food, entertainment and access to public space as every other passenger. Many lines are changing this paradigm now. (I don't include loyalty events -- for the most part a luncheon or a cocktail event -- as indicative of a difference in treatment but as a small recognition of loyalty...you get to participate whether your 100 days were in a suite or in an inside cabin.) Edited March 15, 2019 by cruisemom42 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Despegue Posted March 15, 2019 #923 Share Posted March 15, 2019 1 minute ago, cruisemom42 said: Here is my view, which may or may not reflect reality but it is the way we have always felt as long-time cruisers. Traditionally on leisure cruises (not talking about the ocean liners of old...) people paid for different categories of cabins according to their wishes and means, but once you stepped out of your cabin, for the most part everyone was on equal footing. There were no spaces where one "class" had exclusive access and other classes did not. There were no special reserved decks or pool areas for suites, nor any reserved seating at shows and certainly not a private dining room. Even when specialty restaurants were introduced later in the game, everyone had an equal shot at booking them --- suites for example did not get priority. We were often in the lower echelons by cabin type, but always felt upon leaving our cabin that we received equal treatment, food, entertainment and space as every other passenger. Many lines are changing this paradigm now. (I don't include loyalty events -- for the most part a luncheon or a cocktail event -- as indicative of a difference in treatment but as a small recognition of loyalty...) And that is why we do not cruise Celebrity anymore. We have no need for the space of a suite, but do expect to be treated like everyone else on board, with access to all amenities and decks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fouremco Posted March 15, 2019 #924 Share Posted March 15, 2019 5 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said: Here is my view, which may or may not reflect reality but it is the way we have always felt as long-time cruisers. I couldn't agree more. You've captured the situation perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDC1 Posted March 15, 2019 #925 Share Posted March 15, 2019 2 hours ago, AmazedByCruising said: Why would you resent each other? One flew in Business Class, the other has a better beverage card, an one tells about his condo in Manhattan. Anyway, as long as there are insides and balconies, and midships and aft, there will always be a "class system" and I wouldn't know what ships could do about that. There is one big difference, the implementation of the Ship within a ship as implemented by Celebrity has reduced the amount of public space available to the passengers not in that class. So it has negatively impacted the value to the remaining passengers. As a result Celebrity does not have the same value, for non-suite passengers as it did prior to making that change. With an airplane ticket nothing gets taken away from the economy class passenger due to the implementation of business class, if the plane was entirely economy the seat spacing would be exactly the same for those passengers. An airline equivalent would be for an airline to decide that only business class passengers could use the seats near the gate. That would be a change that would negatively impact economy passengers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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