Significant changes to cruise (regardless of reason, including Coronavirus) - claim a full refund despite Ts&Cs

[jeanlyon]

18 minutes ago, jcollin said:

Hello,

 

Does this cover you if the cruise line won't allow you to board?  I know MSC is doing thermal scans on everyone and if you have a temp everyone in your party is denied boarding. Would a full refund come from that?

 

Thanks 

Just guessing here, but if the cruise line found you with a temperature, then you are obviously unwell and would have to claim off your travel insurance/

[Harry Peterson]

11 minutes ago, jcollin said:

Hello,

 

Does this cover you if the cruise line won't allow you to board?  I know MSC is doing thermal scans on everyone and if you have a temp everyone in your party is denied boarding. Would a full refund come from that?

 

Thanks 

Not sure about that one, but I’m guessing not.  Either way though, this stems from EU legislation and won’t apply outside the EU. The UK, having now left the EU, could also decide to abandon it after the end of this year.

[AndyMichelle]

33 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

A couple of interesting questions there, Stephen.

 

On the ‘significant’ point, the legislation carefully avoids any definition, leaving the interpretation ultimately to be decided by the courts.  In the examples you give though, I’d suggest that one port out of several wouldn’t trigger the legislation, and neither would a rearranged itinerary.  Half, however would, and perhaps even a quarter or a third, depending on the circumstances. That’s just a personal view though. This hasn’t been fully tested yet, and my guess is that cruise operators would prefer to keep it that way.

 

On the S75 Consumer Credit Act point (re credit cards) this is the wording of the Act:

 

75. — (1) If the debtor under a debtor-creditor-supplier agreement falling within section 12(b) or (c) has, in relation to a transaction financed by the agreement, any claim against the supplier in respect of a misrepresentation or breach of contract, he shall have a like claim against the creditor, who, with the supplier, shall accordingly be jointly and severally liable to the debtor

 

There would have to be a misrepresentation or breach of contract, which the port changes might amount to.  The operator would refer to the exclusions in the terms and condition, these are rendered invalid by the 2018 Regulations, so a claim against the card company might work - though you’re still back to the meaning of significant. 

 

Again, just a personal viewpoint.

 

Interesting and developing field, isn’t it?  This article from the excellent Simon Calder might also be of interest:
 

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/coronavirus-news-latest-princess-cruises-iglu-package-travel-regulations-a9331066.html

 

Wow... 

So, in theory, if say Arcadia has to miss/change ports on its Worldie, all passengers would be entitled to a full refund??? 

Or have I misunderstood.. 

Andy 

[Harry Peterson]

2 minutes ago, AndyMichelle said:

Wow... 

So, in theory, if say Arcadia has to miss/change ports on its Worldie, all passengers would be entitled to a full refund??? 

Or have I misunderstood.. 

Andy 

Back to the word significant again, Andy, and how it might be interpreted. Depends how many ports involved, their significance perhaps, the overall percentage - a multitude of factors. I don’t think anyone really knows the answers yet, because each situation will be different.

 

Harry

[majortom10]

10 minutes ago, AndyMichelle said:

Wow... 

So, in theory, if say Arcadia has to miss/change ports on its Worldie, all passengers would be entitled to a full refund??? 

Or have I misunderstood.. 

Andy 

On my past experience with P&O with reference to definition of "significant", see my previous post, then I would say not a cat in hell's chance of getting a full refund.

Edited February 14, 2020 by majortom10

[stephen@stoneyard.co.uk]

19 minutes ago, AndyMichelle said:

Wow... 

So, in theory, if say Arcadia has to miss/change ports on its Worldie, all passengers would be entitled to a full refund??? 

Or have I misunderstood.. 

Andy 

I read it as if there are significant changes known by the tour operator prior to departure.  The option to cancel and have a full refund should be offered.
 

It seems fair to me. You can then make alternative holiday plans and the cruise company can resell the cabin.  That is of no benefit or loss to the passenger (or P&O).  They are only getting their own money back because the cruise they originally booked is not available and they would not have chosen the amended itinerary.  They are being put back in their original situation before booking. 
 

What your rights are if significant changes to the itinerary are made after departure I would not like to guess. 
 

There was a situation where a cruise departed and then passengers were told about a significant change in the itinerary. Nearly all ports were lost and very little was offered in compensation. It was alleged that the cruise company knew about these changes before departure. The ship had allegedly taken on food or fuel and made other amended preparations before departure. After much unnecessary unpleasantness a full refund was offered to the passengers on the cruise. 

 

Best wishes, Stephen. 

Edited February 14, 2020 by stephen@stoneyard.co.uk

[AndyMichelle]

9 minutes ago, stephen@stoneyard.co.uk said:

I read it as if there are significant changes known by the tour operator prior to departure.  The option to cancel and have a full refund should be offered.
 

It seems fair to me. You can then make alternative holiday plans and the cruise company can resell the cabin.  That is of no benefit or loss to the passenger (or P&O).  They are only getting their own money back because the cruise they originally booked is not available and they would not have chosen the amended itinerary.  They are being put back in their original situation before booking. 
 

What your rights are if significant changes to the itinerary are made after departure I would not like to guess. 
 

There was a situation where a cruise departed and then passengers were told about a significant change in the itinerary. Nearly all ports were lost and very little was offered in compensation. It was alleged that the cruise company knew about these changes before departure. The ship had allegedly taken on food or fuel and made other amended preparations before departure. After much unnecessary unpleasantness a full refund was offered to the passengers on the cruise. 

 

Best wishes, Stephen. 

Thank you for explaining Stephen. 

I tend to read headlines and panic.... 

Too many years of reading The Sun... 😊

Andy 

[terrierjohn]

32 minutes ago, majortom10 said:

On my past experience with P&O with reference to definition of "significant", see my previous post, then I would say not a cat in hell's chance of getting a full refund.

Since Worldies are broken down into segments, then I would imagine the best you might get would be a refund for that segment if the change was deemed significant.

[Harry Peterson]

32 minutes ago, stephen@stoneyard.co.uk said:

I read it as if there are significant changes known by the tour operator prior to departure.  The option to cancel and have a full refund should be offered.
 

It seems fair to me. You can then make alternative holiday plans and the cruise company can resell the cabin.  That is of no benefit or loss to the passenger (or P&O).  They are only getting their own money back because the cruise they originally booked is not available and they would not have chosen the amended itinerary.  They are being put back in their original situation before booking. 
 

What your rights are if significant changes to the itinerary are made after departure I would not like to guess. 
 

There was a situation where a cruise departed and then passengers were told about a significant change in the itinerary. Nearly all ports were lost and very little was offered in compensation. It was alleged that the cruise company knew about these changes before departure. The ship had allegedly taken on food or fuel and made other amended preparations before departure. After much unnecessary unpleasantness a full refund was offered to the passengers on the cruise. 

 

Best wishes, Stephen. 

The after departure position is covered by this:

 

14.—(1) The terms set out in paragraphs (2) and (3) below are implied in every contract and apply where, after departure, a significant proportion of the services contracted for is not provided or the organiser becomes aware that he will be unable to procure a significant proportion of the services to be provided.

(2) The organiser will make suitable alternative arrangements, at no extra cost to the consumer, for the continuation of the package and will, where appropriate, compensate the consumer for the difference between the services to be supplied under the contract and those supplied.

(3) If it is impossible to make arrangements as described in paragraph (2), or these are not accepted by the consumer for good reasons, the organiser will, where appropriate, provide the consumer with equivalent transport back to the place of departure or to another place to which the consumer has agreed and will, where appropriate, compensate the consumer.

 

On which Which? comments:

 

What if my package holiday changes after it starts?

If after departure a significant proportion of the services contracted for is not provided, or the organiser becomes aware that they will be unable to procure a significant proportion of them:

the organiser must make suitable alternative arrangements, at no extra cost to you, for the continuation of the package and will, where appropriate, compensate you for the difference between the services to be supplied under the contract and those actually supplied

if it is impossible to make arrangements, or these are rejected by you for good reason, the organiser will, where appropriate, provide you with equivalent transport back to the place of departure or to another place to which you have agreed and will, where appropriate, compensate you.Significant proportion of services not provided

[stephen@stoneyard.co.uk]

8 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

The after departure position is covered by this:

 

14.—(1) The terms set out in paragraphs (2) and (3) below are implied in every contract and apply where, after departure, a significant proportion of the services contracted for is not provided or the organiser becomes aware that he will be unable to procure a significant proportion of the services to be provided.

(2) The organiser will make suitable alternative arrangements, at no extra cost to the consumer, for the continuation of the package and will, where appropriate, compensate the consumer for the difference between the services to be supplied under the contract and those supplied.

(3) If it is impossible to make arrangements as described in paragraph (2), or these are not accepted by the consumer for good reasons, the organiser will, where appropriate, provide the consumer with equivalent transport back to the place of departure or to another place to which the consumer has agreed and will, where appropriate, compensate the consumer.

 

On which Which? comments:

 

What if my package holiday changes after it starts?

If after departure a significant proportion of the services contracted for is not provided, or the organiser becomes aware that they will be unable to procure a significant proportion of them:

the organiser must make suitable alternative arrangements, at no extra cost to you, for the continuation of the package and will, where appropriate, compensate you for the difference between the services to be supplied under the contract and those actually supplied

if it is impossible to make arrangements, or these are rejected by you for good reason, the organiser will, where appropriate, provide you with equivalent transport back to the place of departure or to another place to which you have agreed and will, where appropriate, compensate you.Significant proportion of services not provided

Thank you again.

 

Best wishes, Stephen. 
 

 

Edited February 14, 2020 by stephen@stoneyard.co.uk

[Harry Peterson]

10 minutes ago, stephen@stoneyard.co.uk said:

Thank you again.

 

Best wishes, Stephen. 
 

 

Not at all, Stephen.  It's a fascinating subject, the cruise companies are not always adhering to the legislation, and you raised some interesting and very valid points.

 

Harry  🙂

[AndyMichelle]

Just seen something elsewhere that says that an NCL cruise has missed 5 ports and been refused entry to Vietnam etc and the passengers have been offered a 10% refund? 

I don't know the full story, but that sounds 'significant' to me... 

Andy 

[Harry Peterson]

15 minutes ago, AndyMichelle said:

Just seen something elsewhere that says that an NCL cruise has missed 5 ports and been refused entry to Vietnam etc and the passengers have been offered a 10% refund? 

I don't know the full story, but that sounds 'significant' to me... 

Andy 

I suppose it depends whether the bookings were made in the EU, where we’re still protected by this EU legislation at the moment  - I’ve no idea whether America has anything similar, and I’m guessing most passengers might be American?

 

  
Depends on whether  “a significant proportion of the services contracted for is not provided” - rather looks that way, doesn’t it?  10% doesn’t sound much to  “compensate the consumer for the difference between the services to be supplied under the contract and those supplied“ does it?

[stephen@stoneyard.co.uk]

22 minutes ago, AndyMichelle said:

Just seen something elsewhere that says that an NCL cruise has missed 5 ports and been refused entry to Vietnam etc and the passengers have been offered a 10% refund? 

I don't know the full story, but that sounds 'significant' to me... 

Andy 

A USA based cruise line of course. If the passengers booked in the UK with the UK subsidiary it could be interesting. 
 

When the Icelandic Ash cloud stopped flights a certain US cruise company attempted to abandon passengers in ports to make their own way home. Ship staff did not understand that these passengers were on a package tour and had to be looked after. I believe the UK tour operators on the whole behaved differently as they understood their obligations.  
 

Best wishes, Stephen. 

[Elaine0138]

58 minutes ago, AndyMichelle said:

Just seen something elsewhere that says that an NCL cruise has missed 5 ports and been refused entry to Vietnam etc and the passengers have been offered a 10% refund? 

I don't know the full story, but that sounds 'significant' to me... 

Andy 

One of my good friends has just been into Vietnam on a cruise this week  guess things are changing daily. 

[AndyMichelle]

28 minutes ago, Harry Peterson said:

I suppose it depends whether the bookings were made in the EU, where we’re still protected by this EU legislation at the moment  - I’ve no idea whether America has anything similar, and I’m guessing most passengers might be American?

 

  
Depends on whether  “a significant proportion of the services contracted for is not provided” - rather looks that way, doesn’t it?  10% doesn’t sound much to  “compensate the consumer for the difference between the services to be supplied under the contract and those supplied“ does it?

Of course Harry. 

See, I just read the headlines and then rely on Stephen and yourself to explain things... Thank you both. 

A note to everyone else... Don't listen to me.. We're doomed, we're doomed 😊

Andy 

[Eglesbrech]

18 hours ago, jeanlyon said:

Just guessing here, but if the cruise line found you with a temperature, then you are obviously unwell and would have to claim off your travel insurance/

Or having a hot flush🥵.

 

Could be difficult for women of a certain age to get through airports and onto ships.

[AndyMichelle]

18 minutes ago, Eglesbrech said:

Or having a hot flush🥵.

 

Could be difficult for women of a certain age to get through airports and onto ships.

That's Michelle's worry, because of medication, she is always having hot flushes... 

If she got refused boarding and I didn't, I doubt our insurance would pay out for both. 

Oh well, I will give her a tenner for the taxi home... 

Hopefully by April my magic pill will be available😊

Andy 

 

[Bazrat]

Ok the bottom line of this entire thread is you might get compensation if some ports are missed.

[Eglesbrech]

21 minutes ago, AndyMichelle said:

That's Michelle's worry, because of medication, she is always having hot flushes... 

If she got refused boarding and I didn't, I doubt our insurance would pay out for both. 

Oh well, I will give her a tenner for the taxi home... 

Hopefully by April my magic pill will be available😊

Andy 

 

My taxi fare home would be significantly more! 
 

All joking aside a ships doctor would be aware of medications and conditions that can raise temperatures (that are not illness) and make allowances for them.

[jeanlyon]

Many hot flashes cause women to perspire heavily, even to the point of soaking your clothing. ... A fever is never caused by a menopausal hot flash symptom

 

So there you go.  Hot flushes do not clause a temperature.

[Eglesbrech]

2 minutes ago, jeanlyon said:

Many hot flashes cause women to perspire heavily, even to the point of soaking your clothing. ... A fever is never caused by a menopausal hot flash symptom

 

So there you go.  Hot flushes do not clause a temperature.

They don’t raise core temperature but they do raise skin temperature which could be enough to trigger thermal imaging. 

[Bazrat]

9 minutes ago, Eglesbrech said:

They don’t raise core temperature but they do raise skin temperature which could be enough to trigger thermal imaging. 

What happens if you have a hot drink before they test you or have alcohol 

[Eglesbrech]

8 minutes ago, Bazrat said:

What happens if you have a hot drink before they test you or have alcohol 

Hot drinks don’t affect your temperature significantly and alcohol actually reduces it, even though you may feel warmer you are actually getting colder.