The Last Straw?

[ARandomTraveler]

8 minutes ago, MoniMommy said:

This is an age old dispute. So it will not be settled today and certainly not on a message board. I think the cruise line was in a better position to take a hit and doing so would have made them good  corporate citizens. You of course put it all on customers. Right now our government is debating the same, people first or businesses firsrt.Just a fundamental difference in beliefs and that's fine.

True. This is why people need to do what they can to protect themselves in the event the decisions go in favor of the business. I’m not saying businesses are more important than people, I’m just saying people played a role in this too, and they had the ability to choose to stay home, and to buy insurance so they didn’t feel obligated to go just to get their monies worth. 

[MoniMommy]

3 minutes ago, ARandomTraveler said:

True. This is why people need to do what they can to protect themselves in the event the decisions go in favor of the business. I’m not saying businesses are more important than people, I’m just saying people played a role in this too, and they had the ability to choose to stay home, and to buy insurance so they didn’t feel obligated to go just to get their monies worth. 

Actually the insurance part isn't true. Unless you had cancel for any reason you would NOT have been able to cancel because you were afraid of getting a deadly virus. Also all states, like NY do not offer cancel for any reason. After the start of the pandemic NY changed their rules to allow it. So a customer could have had insurance and still lost their money for not going.

[mayleeman]

7 minutes ago, MoniMommy said:

So a customer could have had insurance and still lost their money for not going.

 

Just as they chose to risk when they booked. And we are back to consumers making choices based on money.

[MoniMommy]

1 minute ago, mayleeman said:

 

Just as they chose to risk when they booked. And we are back to consumers making choices based on money.

Yes there is no dispute that the greedy cruise lines made people choose between health and looseing money by not going. 

[ARandomTraveler]

1 hour ago, MoniMommy said:

Actually the insurance part isn't true. Unless you had cancel for any reason you would NOT have been able to cancel because you were afraid of getting a deadly virus. Also all states, like NY do not offer cancel for any reason. After the start of the pandemic NY changed their rules to allow it. So a customer could have had insurance and still lost their money for not going.

 

1 hour ago, mayleeman said:

 

Just as they chose to risk when they booked. And we are back to consumers making choices based on money.

Exactly - people made the choice not to buy the more expensive “cancel for any reason” insurance over the much cheaper basic travel insurance (If they bought it at all). Sure, New Yorkers can’t buy it, but that’s just 1 state out of 50. Residents of 49 other states COULD have bought it and chose not to.

 

It’s not hard to read the terms and conditions of travel insurance policies to know what is and is not covered. People who chose to buy insurance that left them restricted on what they could claim did so at their own risk. Even riskier was those who didn’t buy insurance at all...which is the majority of the people on here complaining about not being able to get their money back. 

Edited April 8, 2020 by ARandomTraveler

[ARandomTraveler]

1 hour ago, MoniMommy said:

Yes there is no dispute that the greedy cruise lines made people choose between health and looseing money by not going. 

Nobody made anybody do anything. People made their own choices, nobody blackmailed them or held a gun to their heads. People who felt compelled to cruise because they couldn’t get their money back did that to themselves by not buying cancel for any reason insurance (except of course New Yorkers). 
 

It sucks for people who are learning these lessons the hard way. It’s not that I don’t understand their disappointment and frustration of not being able to get a refund. However- the fact remains that it’s still their own fault for choosing to take the gamble, or for not educating themselves on insurance before they handed over such large chunks of money that they didn’t want to lose. 

Edited April 8, 2020 by ARandomTraveler

[MoniMommy]

3 minutes ago, ARandomTraveler said:

 

Exactly - people made the choice not to buy the more expensive “cancel for any reason” insurance over the much cheaper basic travel insurance (If they bought it at all). Sure, New Yorkers can’t buy it, but that’s just 1 state out of 50. Residents of 49 other states COULD have bought it and chose not to.

 

It’s not hard to read the terms and conditions of travel insurance policies to know what is and is not covered. People who chose to buy insurance that left them restricted on what they could claim did so at their own risk. Even riskier was those who didn’t buy insurance at all...which is the majority of the people on here complaining about not being able to get their money back. 

NY is not the only state without cancel for any reason. I AzlWAYS purchase insurance, and I would have gladly purchased cancel for any reason had it been available to me. However, my understanding is that cancel for any reason covers 75%. Wonder why the cruise lines don't take out insurance that covers them when a pandemic makes cruising unsafe. Everyone is always talking about passengers taking out insurance. No one suggests the cruise lines should had had cancel for any reason/pandemic insurance so they could have done the right thing and stopped sailing before they were forced to stop by the governments closing all the ports.

[MoniMommy]

1 hour ago, MoniMommy said:

Yes there is no dispute that the greedy cruise lines made people choose between health and looseing money by not going. 

 

2 minutes ago, ARandomTraveler said:

Nobody made anybody do anything. People made their own choices, nobody blackmailed them or held a gun to their heads. People who felt compelled to cruise because they couldn’t get their money back did that to themselves by not buying cancel for any reason insurance (except of course New Yorkers). 
 

It sucks for people who are learning these lessons the hard way. It’s not that I don’t understand their disappointment and frustration of not being able to get a refund. However- the fact remains that it’s still their own fault for choosing to take the gamble, or for not educating themselves on insurance before they handed over such large chunks of money that they didn’t want to lose. 

Let me rephrase. The only choice passengers were given by the greedy cruise lines was to go at the risk of health or stay home and loose their money. The unwittingly and unwilling souls who happened to cross paths with an infected cruiser had no choice. 

[broberts]

On 4/5/2020 at 8:29 AM, teaysvalley said:

Not true.  ...

 

Incorrect. The Coast Guard commanded by the chief executive of the U.S. government. It directed cruise ships to offload sick passengers in countries of registration.

 

While the State Department may be assisting citizens it is not doing so for those at sea.

[ARandomTraveler]

15 minutes ago, MoniMommy said:

NY is not the only state without cancel for any reason. I AzlWAYS purchase insurance, and I would have gladly purchased cancel for any reason had it been available to me. However, my understanding is that cancel for any reason covers 75%. Wonder why the cruise lines don't take out insurance that covers them when a pandemic makes cruising unsafe. Everyone is always talking about passengers taking out insurance. No one suggests the cruise lines should had had cancel for any reason/pandemic insurance so they could have done the right thing and stopped sailing before they were forced to stop by the governments closing all the ports.

It does only cover 75%, that’s true. But I’m super content with my 75% cash refund and was willing to lose 25% of my vacation investment in the event that I decided I didn’t want to take my vacation. That’s the risk I took when I decided I wanted to travel and spend that much of my money on something so far in advance. I feel like if was a fair trade and I’m happy with it.
 

I think a lot of people on here complaining would be happy to get 75% of their cash back right now, and be able to wipe their hands of it and walk away mostly unscathed. 
 

The cruiseline has their own options for how to handle the losses - self insuring (meaning they have the money in the bank to cover their expenses and are willing to accept losses), or they can use options like issuing FCC’s instead of cash in order to conserve cash-on-hand, bankruptcy etc. And they’re utilizing those options.
 

You can’t get upset now just because you didn’t think about the consequences of booking an expensive vacation with money you weren’t willing to lose. You took a gamble. Granted, the odds were in your favor that you would win, but unfortunately you lost... but you took the gamble.

 

You could have chosen to book a land vacation at a hotel that didn’t require money up front, or you could have booked the cruise only at the very last minute when you knew for sure you’d be able to go with no issues, or you could have stayed home. You chose to book a trip ahead of time, with money you weren’t willing to lose, without proper insurance coverage (or knowing that you couldn’t buy any) and now you’re upset because it didn’t work in your favor. Sorry 🤷‍♂️

[broberts]

2 minutes ago, ARandomTraveler said:

You can’t get upset now just because you didn’t think about the consequences of booking an expensive vacation with money you weren’t willing to lose. You took a gamble. Granted, the odds were in your favor that you would win, but unfortunately you lost... but you took the gamble.

 

Pandemic was a foreseeable disaster. The current one is not the first. Surely cruise lines took gambles by not planning for them. Yet some seem to think that mega corporations should bear no responsibility for poor planning.

[ARandomTraveler]

24 minutes ago, broberts said:

 

Pandemic was a foreseeable disaster. The current one is not the first. Surely cruise lines took gambles by not planning for them. Yet some seem to think that mega corporations should bear no responsibility for poor planning.

I’m not saying that cruise lines don’t have to bear any responsibility. I think they are very likely dealing with that responsibility right now, just like everyone else.

 

The issue here is that people want someone else to take on their portion of the burden because they don’t like the consequences of their choices, or the terms of contracts that they signed.

 

Sounds to me like a lot of people’s parents raised them without consequences and it shows 😏

Edited April 8, 2020 by ARandomTraveler

[mayleeman]

I guess these "greedy cruise lines" that care about profits should be providing wonderful cruise experiences to passengers without regard for their revenue.

 

By gosh, that is a great idea! Let's make every cruise line just spend and spend, returning money whenever a passenger has a whim, while not letting them enforce any agreements their customers make--especially the ones that the customers signed to get cheap fares! Then, for entertainment we can read about them as they go out of business, fire their crews, and sell the ships for scrap! 

 

I wonder how many people saying the cruises should have been cancelled in late February would have lit this forum up if they had?

Edited April 8, 2020 by mayleeman

[shipshape sam]

On 4/1/2020 at 10:55 AM, MoniMommy said:

Ok, I just read this and as much as I LOVE cruising, this could be the last straw for me even if means forfitting my $900 FCC.

 

Over the weekend, the Coast Guard issued new rules directing all cruise ships to remain at sea where they may be sequestered “indefinitely” during the outbreak and be prepared to send any severely ill passengers to the countries where the vessels are registered.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/coronavirus/2020/4/1/21202798/florida-cruise-ship-new-york-death-toll-healthcare-workers-medical-supplies-outbreak-coronavirus

 

So if I get sock during a pandemic, even if the sickness is not related to the pandemic. I could be denied medical care in the US? These passengers boarded before the worldwide cruise stoppage. However, it was clear when the ship (and many others) sailed that the virus posed a substantial threat.  Those who didn't have cancel for any reason insurance (which isn't available everywhere) and canceled out of health concerns had to just loose all of  their money.  The cruise lines clearly put profits over people.  Myunderstanding is that that are several ships out there unable to port.  

 

Anyway, this was just surprising to me that American citizens or any citizen could be denied medical treatment in American (assuming of course the ship is close enough) while cruising. I would much rather have treatment here than in Panama or Bahamas where many cruise ships are registered. 

 

 

It is a risk!  Not sure I want to take it either right now. Hope you are wrong though.

[MoniMommy]

1 hour ago, ARandomTraveler said:

It does only cover 75%, that’s true. But I’m super content with my 75% cash refund and was willing to lose 25% of my vacation investment in the event that I decided I didn’t want to take my vacation. That’s the risk I took when I decided I wanted to travel and spend that much of my money on something so far in advance. I feel like if was a fair trade and I’m happy with it.
 

I think a lot of people on here complaining would be happy to get 75% of their cash back right now, and be able to wipe their hands of it and walk away mostly unscathed. 
 

The cruiseline has their own options for how to handle the losses - self insuring (meaning they have the money in the bank to cover their expenses and are willing to accept losses), or they can use options like issuing FCC’s instead of cash in order to conserve cash-on-hand, bankruptcy etc. And they’re utilizing those options.
 

You can’t get upset now just because you didn’t think about the consequences of booking an expensive vacation with money you weren’t willing to lose. You took a gamble. Granted, the odds were in your favor that you would win, but unfortunately you lost... but you took the gamble.

 

You could have chosen to book a land vacation at a hotel that didn’t require money up front, or you could have booked the cruise only at the very last minute when you knew for sure you’d be able to go with no issues, or you could have stayed home. You chose to book a trip ahead of time, with money you weren’t willing to lose, without proper insurance coverage (or knowing that you couldn’t buy any) and now you’re upset because it didn’t work in your favor. Sorry 🤷‍♂️

I'm not upset. I never pay more than 2500 for ANY vacation.   I didn't personally loose any money. (Well, I hope not. Still waiting on my refundable deposit refund) I am just stating the fact that cancel for any reason in not an option for all AND that the greedy cruise lines gave passengers the option of loosening their money or cruising during an emergent pandemic. By doing so they jepodized the lives of not just passengers who chose to cruise by crew and non cruisers who crossed paths with them. I am sure you think they too should take personal responsibility. Indeed,, I think your argument is Sorry. But like I said philosophical differences.

[MoniMommy]

1 hour ago, broberts said:

 

Pandemic was a foreseeable disaster. The current one is not the first. Surely cruise lines took gambles by not planning for them. Yet some seem to think that mega corporations should bear no responsibility for poor planning.

Well put!!

[MoniMommy]

36 minutes ago, mayleeman said:

I guess these "greedy cruise lines" that care about profits should be providing wonderful cruise experiences to passengers without regard for their revenue.

 

By gosh, that is a great idea! Let's make every cruise line just spend and spend, returning money whenever a passenger has a whim, while not letting them enforce any agreements their customers make--especially the ones that the customers signed to get cheap fares! Then, for entertainment we can read about them as they go out of business, fire their crews, and sell the ships for scrap! 

 

I wonder how many people saying the cruises should have been cancelled in late February would have lit this forum up if they had?

Its interesting the way you compare canceling because of a Pandemic to a whim. I hope everyone takes this seriously and stays safe. Although there are many who feel its not, it is serious. There's a real person with loved ones behind the death statistics. Stay well everone!

[MoniMommy]

50 minutes ago, ARandomTraveler said:

I’m not saying that cruise lines don’t have to bear any responsibility. I think they are very likely dealing with that responsibility right now, just like everyone else.

 

The issue here is that people want someone else to take on their portion of the burden because they don’t like the consequences of their choices, or the terms of contracts that they signed.

 

Sounds to me like a lot of people’s parents raised them without consequences and it shows 😏

I have not heard anyone say that. But of course I have not read every post.  I wish cruise lines had taken some cooperate responsibly. They would still cruise now if they could. And sadly some would hop right on and sail if cruises were sailing.

[ARandomTraveler]

6 minutes ago, MoniMommy said:

I'm not upset. I never pay more than 2500 for ANY vacation.   I didn't personally loose any money. (Well, I hope not. Still waiting on my refundable deposit refund) I am just stating the fact that cancel for any reason in not an option for all AND that the greedy cruise lines gave passengers the option of loosening their money or cruising during an emergent pandemic. By doing so they jepodized the lives of not just passengers who chose to cruise by crew and non cruisers who crossed paths with them. I am sure you think they too should take personal responsibility. Indeed,, I think your argument is Sorry. But like I said philosophical differences.

I’ll defer to philosophical differences as well. I don’t think the cruiseline bears responsibility for individuals choosing to get on a cruise during a pandemic. It’s easy to point fingers and place blame on someone else so people don’t have to accept consequences of their own choices, my philosophy is people need to take responsibility for their own choices and actions. I guess you raise your kids differently. 

[ARandomTraveler]

6 minutes ago, MoniMommy said:

I have not heard anyone say that. But of course I have not read every post.  I wish cruise lines had taken some cooperate responsibly. They would still cruise now if they could. And sadly some would hop right on and sail if cruises were sailing.

The fact that people are saying it’s not fair that they can’t get their money back, or that their FCC’s are expiring before they can use them etc, are, in essence, expecting the cruiseline to put them in a better position because they don’t like those options. But those are the options they signed up for when they signed a contract.
 

That’s what I mean when I say people are expecting someone else (the cruiseline) to take on their (the customer’s) portion of the burden. 

Edited April 8, 2020 by ARandomTraveler

[MoniMommy]

10 minutes ago, ARandomTraveler said:

I’ll defer to philosophical differences as well. I don’t think the cruiseline bears responsibility for individuals choosing to get on a cruise during a pandemic. It’s easy to point fingers and place blame on someone else so people don’t have to accept consequences of their own choices, my philosophy is people need to take responsibility for their own choices and actions. I guess you raise your kids differently. 

How do you know I have kids and why the need to insert them. My philosophy is people 1st. Yours seems to be ompanies and their profits first. I'm happy we live in a country where we can disagree and have different ideas. Many people did choose to not go during the pandemic. The cruise line was able to keep their money and profit while sailing during the pandemic.  I have no idea how you raise your children and you have no idea how I raise mine or if I have them. Do you raise your children to be judgemental and greedy? I assume not. Why would you assume I raise mine not to be responsible for their own actions?  My oldest won the school citizenship award 2 years in a row. So I must be doing something right. Your child may have won similar awards.  Just as I don't know you, you don't know me.  Hope you and your family stay well.

[MoniMommy]

16 minutes ago, ARandomTraveler said:

The fact that people are saying it’s not fair that they can’t get their money back, or that their FCC’s are expiring before they can use them etc, are, in essence, expecting the cruiseline to put them in a better position because they don’t like those options. But those are the options they signed up for when they signed a contract.
 

That’s what I mean when I say people are expecting someone else (the cruiseline) to take on their (the customer’s) portion of the burden. 

Yes, and that's why the cruise lines are able to greedily keep their customers money. That's not in dispute.  I understand greed is considered good businesses in most companies.

Edited April 8, 2020 by MoniMommy

[ARandomTraveler]

27 minutes ago, MoniMommy said:

How do you know I have kids and why the need to insert them. My philosophy is people 1st. Yours seems to be ompanies and their profits first. I'm happy we live in a country where we can disagree and have different ideas. Many people did choose to not go during the pandemic. The cruise line was able to keep their money and profit while sailing during the pandemic.  I have no idea how you raise your children and you have no idea how I raise mine or if I have them. Do you raise your children to be judgemental and greedy? I assume not. Why would you assume I raise mine not to be responsible for their own actions?  My oldest won the school citizenship award 2 years in a row. So I must be doing something right. Your child may have won similar awards.  Just as I don't know you, you don't know me.  Hope you and your family stay well.

The comment about raising kids was a figure of speech. I’m not against supporting people, but I am against people trying to blame a big corporation for their personal decisions. People had options to secure their money but chose not to, and I’m against “making them whole” when they signed a contract agreeing that they’d be willing to forfeit their money to an FCC with an expiration date.

 

As for my own kid- I’m proud to have raised a hard working, very successful kid who takes ownership of her success and accepts consequences for her actions (or inactions). Sure, she’s won numerous school awards, but she’s also won over 5 national awards, 2 of them for community service based activities she spearheaded on behalf of other people.
 

She’s won 2 international awards, and, as a junior in high school, became an internationally published researcher. She’s one of only 150 National Coke Scholars (a national merit based scholarship awarded to 150 of the United state’s top students, which you probably know about since you also have kids). In March, she was admitted to Harvard, Princeton, Columbia AND Stanford Universities (among several other schools). I’d say I’ve done a pretty good job.

 

The cruise we were to take in June was in celebration of her graduation, which she is no longer getting, neither is she getting the vacation, but she hasn’t complained about it even once. We’re not greedy people, we work hard, and I teach my kid that life isn’t always fair, but she should do everything in her power to do the best she can to give herself options, and she’s done pretty dang good with that lesson. And - we (or rather I) bought insurance because I knew we might have to cancel and I wasn’t willing to get that money back in the form of a credit. I may only get 75% of my money back, but that’s what I signed up for. And I’m certainly not setting an example for my kid that we should blame someone else for losing 25% or that anyone owes us anything more than we signed up for.

Edited April 8, 2020 by ARandomTraveler

[gatour]

On 4/5/2020 at 8:29 AM, teaysvalley said:

Not true.  The US State Department has been repatriating Americans stuck in foreign countries.  I read 40,000 plus so far.

The Coast Guard said this  the highlighting is mine...

 

"Over the weekend, the Coast Guard issued new rules directing all cruise ships to remain at sea where they may be sequestered “indefinitely” during the outbreak and be prepared to send any severely ill passengers to the countries where the vessels are registered."

 

Notice how it said "any severely ill passengers"   Didn't differentiate between US citizens vs non-US citizens.

 

[MoniMommy]

1 hour ago, ARandomTraveler said:

The comment about raising kids was a figure of speech. I’m not against supporting people, but I am against people trying to blame a big corporation for their personal decisions. People had options to secure their money but chose not to, and I’m against “making them whole” when they signed a contract agreeing that they’d be willing to forfeit their money to an FCC with an expiration date.

 

As for my own kid- I’m proud to have raised a hard working, very successful kid who takes ownership of her success and accepts consequences for her actions (or inactions). Sure, she’s won numerous school awards, but she’s also won over 5 national awards, 2 of them for community service based activities she spearheaded on behalf of other people.
 

She’s won 2 international awards, and, as a junior in high school, became an internationally published researcher. She’s one of only 150 National Coke Scholars (a national merit based scholarship awarded to 150 of the United state’s top students, which you probably know about since you also have kids). In March, she was admitted to Harvard, Princeton, Columbia AND Stanford Universities (among several other schools). I’d say I’ve done a pretty good job.

 

The cruise we were to take in June was in celebration of her graduation, which she is no longer getting, neither is she getting the vacation, but she hasn’t complained about it even once. We’re not greedy people, we work hard, and I teach my kid that life isn’t always fair, but she should do everything in her power to do the best she can to give herself options, and she’s done pretty dang good with that lesson. And - we (or rather I) bought insurance because I knew we might have to cancel and I wasn’t willing to get that money back in the form of a credit. I may only get 75% of my money back, but that’s what I signed up for. And I’m certainly not setting an example for my kid that we should blame someone else for losing 25% or that anyone owes us anything more than we signed up for.

I am fine with agreeing to disagree. I was raised to believe that to whom much is given much is expected. So of course I will never take the side of large corporation who doesn't pay taxes. You take their side. That's your right.. I am glad you had the cancel for any reason insurance. That wasn't an option for me.  The real sad thing is those who may have crossed paths with an infected passenger and got very sick or died. They had no choice. Cruise lines could have chose to cancel earlier but they didn't want to give refunds. I had insurance, booked a refundable deposit, and have canceled. You will always let the billionaires off the hook. I never will. Glad we are able to disagree.