3 in 10 cruisers won’t cruise again

[Harry Peterson]

6 hours ago, happy v said:

I can't believe all the 'when we were young' posts! Can you not remember your Grandparents saying the same thing, and thinking I'm never going to be that boring? So I don't know how old you all are but I have certainly not fallen into this trap yet. I hope I never will. 😉😏

Couldn't agree more - very depressing to see all the moaning about young people here.  

[kalos]

9 hours ago, happy v said:

I can't believe all the 'when we were young' posts! Can you not remember your Grandparents saying the same thing, and thinking I'm never going to be that boring? So I don't know how old you all are but I have certainly not fallen into this trap yet. I hope I never will. 😉😏

 

2 hours ago, Harry Peterson said:

Couldn't agree more - very depressing to see all the moaning about young people here.  

 

Well let's all stick together as we are in this together.   Bear here will show you how its done .

 

 

[terrierjohn]

11 hours ago, happy v said:

I can't believe all the 'when we were young' posts! Can you not remember your Grandparents saying the same thing, and thinking I'm never going to be that boring? So I don't know how old you all are but I have certainly not fallen into this trap yet. I hope I never will. 😉😏

 

5 hours ago, Harry Peterson said:

Couldn't agree more - very depressing to see all the moaning about young people here.  

Harry how did you manage to relate boring grandparents with moaning about young people. If you want to discuss that, why not start a separate thread?

[grapau27]

2 hours ago, kalos said:

 

 

Well let's all stick together as we are in this together.   Bear here will show you how its done .

 

 

Thanks this cheered me up.

[Chrisdriving]

On 14 April 2020 at 11:23 AM, Selbourne said:

So do I John. The herd immunity issue is very interesting. It’s probably the only route back to life as normal, prior to a vaccine, but is political dynamite. When this first started, I was of a view that I’d quite like to catch it and get it over with, rather than have it hanging over me like an axe for the next year or two. That was when they said that the vast majority of people would get mild to moderate symptoms. Now, having seen how ill middle aged people (and younger) with no significant underlying health issues can be, I am quite fearful of it. Also, people might not realise that they have an underlying health issue until their body is tested to the extreme. Not a good way to find out!

Add in the fact that there is nothing to say you cant catch it again or that a vaccine may well not work against it anyway as there are several different strains of it( 30 i think the Chinese said) makes it even more uncertain.

https://www.foxnews.com/science/coronavirus-mutated-at-least-30-different-strains-study-finds

Edited April 25, 2020 by Chrisdriving

[zap99]

2 hours ago, Chrisdriving said:

Add in the fact that there is nothing to say you cant catch it again or that a vaccine may well not work against it anyway as there are several different strains of it( 30 i think the Chinese said) makes it even more uncertain.

https://www.foxnews.com/science/coronavirus-mutated-at-least-30-different-strains-study-finds

I mentioned herd immunity and second wave about a month ago and was called stupid by a couple of posters. Lots of folks seem to be experts, but their tune changes over the weeks. Oh well.

[Selbourne]

5 minutes ago, zap99 said:

I mentioned herd immunity and second wave about a month ago and was called stupid by a couple of posters. Lots of folks seem to be experts, but their tune changes over the weeks. Oh well.

My post (quoted above) was 2 weeks ago, so you weren’t alone! I also agree with you about second (and beyond, in fact) waves and peaks. I find it interesting that 6 weeks ago all the science was pointing to one massive peak (with no lockdown) or multiple smaller peaks, as a result of switching controls on and off to manage NHS capacity. Now they don’t mention that at all and yet to me that seems inevitable until we are all vaccinated. In fact, the 5th criteria for releasing us from lockdown (no risk of a second peak) seems to me to be completely impossible to achieve, as surely it is bound to flare up again. My theory is that it is known that we can’t overcome it until a vaccine but that the economy cannot survive lockdown until a vaccine is widely available, so the approach will be herd immunity with a managed level of hospitalisations (and, sorry to say, deaths) and restrictions switched on and off to achieve that. The government won’t say this as it would cause widespread concern and frustration and, however sensible, is politically damaging. All the above is why we would not consider a cruise for at least 18 months, even if they started again and even though we are well under 70, and I find it incredible that anyone else would. It appears that having already had the virus doesn’t even give you immunity now!

[Eddie99]

It feels to me that the political/medical imperative is to keep infection levels such that hospitals, care homes, crematoria and graveyards can cope

This thing is horrible.  It picks off the weakest and a few ‘outliers’ who appear healthy.  It’s with us for the foreseeable future

 

Cruising?  Very low on my priority list now

[wowzz]

9 minutes ago, Eddie99 said:

It feels to me that the political/medical imperative is to keep infection levels such that hospitals, care homes, crematoria and graveyards can cope

This thing is horrible.  It picks off the weakest and a few ‘outliers’ who appear healthy.  It’s with us for the foreseeable future

 

Cruising?  Very low on my priority list now

Whilst I obviously agree about the mortality rates of CV19, the vast majority of deaths do have underlying symptoms,  be it obesity,  diabetes etc.

My concern is that there are probably just as many(or more) people who will due in the future, due to not getting  cancer treatment, transplants, screening etc at the moment. 

I am in no way playing down the seriousness of CV19, but it seems wrong that beds in private hospitals, taken over by the government,  are lying empty, whilst those needing treatment are told to stay at home.   

[Adawn47]

The over-riding  factor here is that no-one knows anything about this virus. They're having to learn as they go using scientific guesswork and trial and error.  Unfortunately we have to be the guinea pigs. There is no other way that I can see. I'm only thankful that we're being given safe and sensible advice. 

Avril 

[terrierjohn]

2 hours ago, zap99 said:

I mentioned herd immunity and second wave about a month ago and was called stupid by a couple of posters. Lots of folks seem to be experts, but their tune changes over the weeks. Oh well.

You do realise that Fox news is Donald Trumps channel of choice, and not noted for its accuracy.

[zap99]

58 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

You do realise that Fox news is Donald Trumps channel of choice, and not noted for its accuracy.

Is that of any relevance?

[wowzz]

1 hour ago, Adawn47 said:

we're being given safe and sensible advice. 

I'm not sure who you are listening to, but if it's Matt Hancock,  I would ignore everything he says.  

At the moment,  I would prefer Mrs Merkel to take over - look at how the Germans are controlling the situation. We are being lead by donkeys. Empty hospital beds,  empty testing centres, people being denied cancer treatment,  transplants, etc. It's a total shambles.

The only people that are happy are the police, who suddenly are out in force to stop you sitting on a bench,  or seeing if your shopping is essential.  

Edited April 25, 2020 by wowzz

[IDB37]

5 hours ago, wowzz said:

I'm not sure who you are listening to, but if it's Matt Hancock,  I would ignore everything he says.  

At the moment,  I would prefer Mrs Merkel to take over - look at how the Germans are controlling the situation. We are being lead by donkeys. Empty hospital beds,  empty testing centres, people being denied cancer treatment,  transplants, etc. It's a total shambles.

The only people that are happy are the police, who suddenly are out in force to stop you sitting on a bench,  or seeing if your shopping is essential.  

 

If the UK Government hadn't ensured sufficiency of ICU capacity by taking over the private Health sector beds and building Nightingdale Hospitals in record times, and there had then been a bed shortage (like Italy), no doubt you would also be complaining vociferously about that.

 

For my part, I agree completely with ADawn47's post above.

 

 

 

Edited April 26, 2020 by IDB37

[Tommart]

2 hours ago, IDB37 said:

 

If the UK Government hadn't ensured sufficiency of ICU capacity by taking over the private Health sector beds and building Nightingdale Hospitals in record times, and there had then been a bed shortage (like Italy), no doubt you would also be complaining vociferously about that.

 

For my part, I agree completely with ADawn47's post above.

 

 

 

I'm not sure how much you know about the situation in the UK, but it's become very clear over the last few days, following a detailed report in the Times (Coronavirus: 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster), that the government acted far too late - it's one of the reasons our NHS workers are facing shortages of protective equipment, and it's one of the reasons our death rate is now heading for Italy's.  There were no queues outside hospitals, but people still died, and the 20,000 deaths now reported don't include thousands of deaths in care homes and elsewhere.  These are just the hospital deaths.

 

More than 100 NHS workers have died as a consequence of the delays in providing equipment (still going on).  Nothing was done in February when we should have been taking action based on Wuhan and Italy, and Boris Johnson skipped five Cobra meetings on the virus because he didn't see it as important. At that time he was concentrating on his interesting private life.

 

This from a senor advisor to Downing Street: 

 

“There’s no way you’re at war if your PM isn’t there. And what you learn about Boris was he didn’t chair any meetings. He liked his country breaks. He didn’t work weekends. It was like working for an old-fashioned chief executive in a local authority 20 years ago. There was a real sense that he didn’t do urgent crisis planning. It was exactly like people feared he would be.”

 

The government did too little, far too late, and the economic and health consequences are disastrous.

 

[Snow Hill]

59 minutes ago, Tommart said:

I'm not sure how much you know about the situation in the UK, but it's become very clear over the last few days, following a detailed report in the Times (Coronavirus: 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster), that the government acted far too late - it's one of the reasons our NHS workers are facing shortages of protective equipment, and it's one of the reasons our death rate is now heading for Italy's.  There were no queues outside hospitals, but people still died, and the 20,000 deaths now reported don't include thousands of deaths in care homes and elsewhere.  These are just the hospital deaths.

 

More than 100 NHS workers have died as a consequence of the delays in providing equipment (still going on).  Nothing was done in February when we should have been taking action based on Wuhan and Italy, and Boris Johnson skipped five Cobra meetings on the virus because he didn't see it as important. At that time he was concentrating on his interesting private life.

 

This from a senor advisor to Downing Street: 

 

“There’s no way you’re at war if your PM isn’t there. And what you learn about Boris was he didn’t chair any meetings. He liked his country breaks. He didn’t work weekends. It was like working for an old-fashioned chief executive in a local authority 20 years ago. There was a real sense that he didn’t do urgent crisis planning. It was exactly like people feared he would be.”

 

The government did too little, far too late, and the economic and health consequences are disastrous.

 

And only now are they looking at quarantining people 14 days upon entering the country, other governments were doing this in mid to late March. Horse meet stable door! Also looking it reintroducing contact & tracing, too late for the 40,000+ people who have died, some who may have been saved if they hadn’t abandoned the policy weeks ago. If a business had been responsible for this incompetence they would be facing corporate manslaughter charges.
 

As for cruising, I doubt we will see it on the same scale as before as some countries will see it as an opportunity to reduce the size of ships and numbers of people coming ashore, think Venice, Dubrovnik, Norway, all who sought to restrict access before this happened. 

[wowzz]

4 hours ago, IDB37 said:

 

If the UK Government hadn't ensured sufficiency of ICU capacity by taking over the private Health sector beds and building Nightingdale Hospitals in record times, and there had then been a bed shortage (like Italy), no doubt you would also be complaining vociferously about that.

 

For my part, I agree completely with ADawn47's post above.

 

 

 

Perhaps you would care to tell us from the depths of Calgary, exactly how many people have been treated in the Nightingale hospital in London ? Can you also tell us how many people have been screened at the drive in testing centres? 

[Adawn47]

9 hours ago, wowzz said:

I'm not sure who you are listening to, but if it's Matt Hancock,  I would ignore everything he says.  

At the moment,  I would prefer Mrs Merkel to take over - look at how the Germans are controlling the situation. We are being lead by donkeys. Empty hospital beds,  empty testing centres, people being denied cancer treatment,  transplants, etc. It's a total shambles.

The only people that are happy are the police, who suddenly are out in force to stop you sitting on a bench,  or seeing if your shopping is essential.  

I was actually referring to our blonde-haired friend across the pond with his wise words of scientific advice😉. (You have to be careful what you say now.) On the point you mentioned about Germany, not that I'm disputing what you say, but as of yesterday their  numbers sadly  are beginning to climb again. Then there's Sweden!  A totally different concept to any other country. 

Who can say which is right,  only time will tell.   I certainly don't agree with some of what's been said or done , but it is what it is and I most definitely wouldn't want to be in their shoes with millions of lives at risk. It's ok to debate the pros and cons of what is being done but would anyone of us like to have that responsibility.  As I said before, everyone is still at the learning stage. There are bound to be mistakes made, but there have been worse made in other countries. 

Avril 

[terrierjohn]

10 hours ago, zap99 said:

Is that of any relevance?

Well I could not find any reports that it was Covid19 that has mutated, lots about Coronavirus mutating and all of them press reports, nothing from a medical source, and we know there are lots of Corona viruses........................just saying.

[terrierjohn]

2 hours ago, Tommart said:

I'm not sure how much you know about the situation in the UK, but it's become very clear over the last few days, following a detailed report in the Times (Coronavirus: 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster), that the government acted far too late - it's one of the reasons our NHS workers are facing shortages of protective equipment, and it's one of the reasons our death rate is now heading for Italy's.  There were no queues outside hospitals, but people still died, and the 20,000 deaths now reported don't include thousands of deaths in care homes and elsewhere.  These are just the hospital deaths.

 

More than 100 NHS workers have died as a consequence of the delays in providing equipment (still going on).  Nothing was done in February when we should have been taking action based on Wuhan and Italy, and Boris Johnson skipped five Cobra meetings on the virus because he didn't see it as important. At that time he was concentrating on his interesting private life.

 

This from a senor advisor to Downing Street: 

 

“There’s no way you’re at war if your PM isn’t there. And what you learn about Boris was he didn’t chair any meetings. He liked his country breaks. He didn’t work weekends. It was like working for an old-fashioned chief executive in a local authority 20 years ago. There was a real sense that he didn’t do urgent crisis planning. It was exactly like people feared he would be.”

 

The government did too little, far too late, and the economic and health consequences are disastrous.

 

There was a detailed destruction of the times article on the govts. Covid websit, if you care to read it.

[terrierjohn]

1 hour ago, Snow Hill said:

And only now are they looking at quarantining people 14 days upon entering the country, other governments were doing this in mid to late March. Horse meet stable door! Also looking it reintroducing contact & tracing, too late for the 40,000+ people who have died, some who may have been saved if they hadn’t abandoned the policy weeks ago. If a business had been responsible for this incompetence they would be facing corporate manslaughter charges.
 

As for cruising, I doubt we will see it on the same scale as before as some countries will see it as an opportunity to reduce the size of ships and numbers of people coming ashore, think Venice, Dubrovnik, Norway, all who sought to restrict access before this happened. 

If you listen to the experts you would realise that testing all arrivals for a brief temperature check on arrival, whilst we still have the virus spreading in the community is a wasteful exercise, since lots of incoming passengers might not display symtoms until well after they arrive, but they should all follow the social distancing rules to avoid spreading it further.

Once the number of new cases drops to a manageable level, then track and trace can be reintroduced, and at that point it is worthwhile to begin test incoming arrivals. 

[mat5664]

It's funny how people think what they want to think.  There are huge shortages of PPE throughout Europe, including Germany.   Have a look at the German papers and you will see similar accounts to here of deaths in care homes.  It's clear from looking at New York, Paris, London ,Madrid that death rates are associated mostly with population density.  

 

As for cruising, it will not be safe until either a vaccine that is reliable comes along or the virus starts to disappear due to herd immunity.  I cannot understand why anyone would even consider booking a cruise at the moment.  You may be fine, but just as likely you may end up in a mobile virus spreader going round in circles whilst ports block arrivals and people die.  For the moment, I would expect cruise companies to start to offer more at sea only cruises, where passengers and crew are tested before they come on board.

[terrierjohn]

1 hour ago, wowzz said:

Perhaps you would care to tell us from the depths of Calgary, exactly how many people have been treated in the Nightingale hospital in London ? Can you also tell us how many people have been screened at the drive in testing centres? 

Forgive me if I am wrong wowzz but wasn't it you and Harry who were forecasting vast numbers of deaths in the UK due to our having far too few ICU beds, even fewer than Italy was one comment, all due to NHS cuts by this govt.

Now following a major effort we have spare ICU capacity, and yet you complain about them lying empty, if you took off your blinkered anti Boris glasses you might have a clearer view of how well our NHS is coping with this pandemic.

[Snow Hill]

21 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

If you listen to the experts you would realise that testing all arrivals for a brief temperature check on arrival, whilst we still have the virus spreading in the community is a wasteful exercise, since lots of incoming passengers might not display symtoms until well after they arrive, but they should all follow the social distancing rules to avoid spreading it further.

Once the number of new cases drops to a manageable level, then track and trace can be reintroduced, and at that point it is worthwhile to begin test incoming arrivals. 

The experts in South Korea have a different view on tracking & tracing, their method has kept infection rates and deaths down. 
 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-southkorea-respons/ahead-of-the-curve-south-koreas-evolving-strategy-to-prevent-a-coronavirus-resurgence-idUSKCN21X0MO

[terrierjohn]

1 minute ago, Snow Hill said:

The experts in South Korea have a different view on tracking & tracing, their method has kept infection rates and deaths down. 
 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-southkorea-respons/ahead-of-the-curve-south-koreas-evolving-strategy-to-prevent-a-coronavirus-resurgence-idUSKCN21X0MO

Possibly true but we are where we are and using track and trace at the height of the epidemic with the virus widespread in the community is pointless, which was why I answered the post as I did.