Face masks Onboard?? Yes or No --- merged thread

[Purvis1231]

On 5/17/2020 at 11:38 PM, Organized Chaos said:

Someone said, if it's not safe to cruise without a mask, it's not safe to cruise at all. That notion is false, or shaky logic at best, with no real factual truth behind it. As it stands now, there's still no concrete evidence that all of the mask wearing is effective against COVID-19. There's just not enough data to definitively say it's the way to go. The only thing we know is that no one knows for sure. I agree with Butterbean in that it's to make people feel safe. Let's not forget that for weeks, all of the experts (Fauci, Birx, the Surgeon General, the CDC, etc.) all discouraged the use of masks, except for healthcare professionals. Many in the media, and their parade of "experts," said the same thing. Now they've all done a 180. There are many doctors who still discourage their use to this day, as has already been talked about. Homemade masks made from cotton only block 2% of the airflow, meaning 98% of airflow can pass through those masks. That means a large percentage of respiratory exhalations can pass through them, to include the possibility of it being laden with the virus. It's also said that those "surgical" masks, the (baby blue) ones we see everyone wearing, aren't very effective for the general public either. They're often loose fitting and allow a lot of air to get passed. And now new studies are showing that it can be contracted through the eyes. So what's next, goggles?

I said "if it's not safe to cruise without a mask, it's not safe to cruise." What I meant if that if there are still widespread outbreaks then it will not be safe to cruise. The virus spread easily through ships, not just cruse ships but also, the USS Theodore Roosevelt and the French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle. It appears this virus is so virulent that all the hand washing and cleaning cannot stop it on a ship once an outbreak starts.  The data on mask are still not clear. I have been wearing a mask since mid-March in public for short periods of time because Taiwan mandated this in January and they have seem to contain the virus. I can read the  medical literature that indicates basic mask cannot stop the flu virus and that prolong wearing on n-95 mask and even other type masks can cause reduced oxygen levels that can result in a number of health problems.  So gain if the virus has not be abated there will be no cruising.  

[jimbo5544]

56 minutes ago, Purvis1231 said:

I said "if it's not safe to cruise without a mask, it's not safe to cruise." What I meant if that if there are still widespread outbreaks then it will not be safe to cruise. The virus spread easily through ships, not just cruse ships but also, the USS Theodore Roosevelt and the French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle. It appears this virus is so virulent that all the hand washing and cleaning cannot stop it on a ship once an outbreak starts.  The data on mask are still not clear. I have been wearing a mask since mid-March in public for short periods of time because Taiwan mandated this in January and they have seem to contain the virus. I can read the  medical literature that indicates basic mask cannot stop the flu virus and that prolong wearing on n-95 mask and even other type masks can cause reduced oxygen levels that can result in a number of health problems.  So gain if the virus has not be abated there will be no cruising.  

You might want to check out Faucci’s last take on masks and their real affect on potential for stopping virus spread.  Someone here posted a link of where these hotspots are (British epidemiologist - who by the way I think poked a whole In the modeling errors as well that were saying over a million deaths).  In iterations of tens, the top spots for breakouts were nursing homes assisted living and meat packing plants, next ten the same and so on.  Of course there a couple of exceptions, but the point in regards to masks and cruising is (in the beginning of cruising) if we can ensure people are healthy when they get on and we mitigate exposures when they arise, masks will make zero difference.  Now, the overseeing body has a major dislike for cruising and has the ability to continue to inflict as much pain as they can and I see nothing that will make them change their minds....so we will see.   

[Joe817]

Good analysis Jimbo. 

[skridge]

5 hours ago, Chief93 said:

I thought I might provide some helpful facts in regards to masks, so we can all make an informed decision when it comes to their use.  Just for a little background, I have 30 years of experience in a leadership role in public safety.

 

The cloth masks we are being asked to wear in public do very little to protect you.  All viruses are much too small to be filtered out.  However, they are reasonably effective at preventing the spread of the virus from the host to others.  And, as has been proven, the vast majority of hosts are asymptomatic.  Therefore, it is in the best interest of the public for masks to be used in public.  There is no need to wear a mask alone in your car or when alone outside.  

 

The N95 mask does provide protection, if worn properly.  Note that the "95" in N95 means it filters 95% of virus size particulate.  So the protection is relative.  The problem is that most do not wear it properly, and even more important do not take it off correctly.  It is also uncomfortable, makes it difficult to breathe, etc.

 

I have seen one or two people wearing respirator masks.  Note that the cylinders attached to the filters contain the exact same material as the N95, and in the same thickness.  Other than the face shield, it does not provide greater protection.

 

Face shields are effective at keeping the virus out of your eyes only at very short range.  In my opinion, they are overkill, but if it makes someone feel secure then so be it.

 

Gloves....and this is critical.  Failure to remove gloves correctly is as bad as not wearing them.  There is a specific manner in which gloves must be removed.   The two nurses in Dallas that contracted ebola from a patient were found to have not removed their gloves correctly.  Nosocomial infections like MRSA, VRE and C. Diff. are transmitted by health care staff in the hospital secondary to ineffective hand hygiene.  Gloves can easily give you a false sense of security.

 

It is also noteworthy that the pandemic does not present the same in every location.  What is happening in NYC is not what is happening where I live.  Here, the hospitals are laying off staff as they are practically empty.  EMS has had their call volume cut in half.  So what is acceptable risk in one place may not be acceptable in another.

 

Speaking of risk, I, your humble servant, and almost four years past the day I was told I had 6 months to live.  I have referenced this is in my signature.  I would be at extreme risk if I contracted COVID.  Nevertheless, I have a cruise in October, and if the only requirement is wearing a mask in public, I will be there.  With bells on.

 

 

Thanks for this great post.  

[mafiadon]

On 5/8/2020 at 12:10 AM, jperry2011 said:

Not a chance im cruising with a mask on. Speak for yourself. 

I agree, I sleep all night with a C-Pap mask on I'm sure as hell not going to wear one all day too.

[chipmaster]

2 hours ago, jimbo5544 said:

You might want to check out Faucci’s last take on masks and their real affect on potential for stopping virus spread.  Someone here posted a link of where these hotspots are (British epidemiologist - who by the way I think poked a whole In the modeling errors as well that were saying over a million deaths).  In iterations of tens, the top spots for breakouts were nursing homes assisted living and meat packing plants, next ten the same and so on.  Of course there a couple of exceptions, but the point in regards to masks and cruising is (in the beginning of cruising) if we can ensure people are healthy when they get on and we mitigate exposures when they arise, masks will make zero difference.  Now, the overseeing body has a major dislike for cruising and has the ability to continue to inflict as much pain as they can and I see nothing that will make them change their minds....so we will see.   

 

I would say all the hot spots when they became hotspots weren't very big users of masks, but now they are, let's see what happens.   

 

To insure people on the ship are healthy versus disease free are two things.  Healthy, I'd laugh and say you'd lose more than 1/2 of the customers, disease free maybe only 1% of them or less.  

 

Now even with testing if anyone gets on that has something that is as highly contagious as SARS-CoV-2 then masks are become interesting.  There were some subtle changes in the recent CDC recommendations.   The evidence that human-human is become larger and in this light masks become more interesting.

 

You could argue that the US now as they are starting to open is also a mask wearing company now, forget the selfish demonstrators who are symbolic about their right to go maskless.  Why don't they also show up with no shoes and clothes as well if their freedom is so important to them?

 

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by chipmaster

[PA Dutchman]

"if it's not safe to cruise without a mask, it's not safe to cruise with a mask." you got problems. 

[jimbo5544]

25 minutes ago, chipmaster said:

 

I would say all the hot spots when they became hotspots weren't very big users of masks, but now they are, let's see what happens.   

 

To insure people on the ship are healthy versus disease free are two things.  Healthy, I'd laugh and say you'd lose more than 1/2 of the customers, disease free maybe only 1% of them or less.  

 

Now even with testing if anyone gets on that has something that is as highly contagious as SARS-CoV-2 then masks are become interesting.  There were some subtle changes in the recent CDC recommendations.   The evidence that human-human is become larger and in this light masks become more interesting.

 

You could argue that the US now as they are starting to open is also a mask wearing company now, forget the selfish demonstrators who are symbolic about their right to go maskless.  Why don't they also show up with no shoes and clothes as well if their freedom is so important to them?

 

 

I go not want to go in a rabbit hole on masks, but my view of the diagram is you can make it what you want   The countries had different cultures, not just the mask variables (ie isolation, demographic etc.) but if you view it as mask centric only, so be it.  I see many other variables on hot spots, which I alluded to in my post. 

Edited May 19, 2020 by jimbo5544

[chipmaster]

5 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

I go not want to go in a rabbit hole on masks, but my view of the diagram is you can make it what you want   The countries had different cultures, not just the mask variables (ie isolation, demographic etc.) but if you view it as mask centric only, so be it.  I see many other variables on hot spots, which I alluded to in my post. 

 

You seem interested, perhaps take a read of this: https://www.fast.ai/2020/04/13/masks-summary/

 

And if you feel like you want to really challenge your intellect this is better:  https://arxiv.org/pdf/2004.13553.pdf

 

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by chipmaster

[jimbo5544]

1 hour ago, chipmaster said:

 

You seem interested, perhaps take a read of this: https://www.fast.ai/2020/04/13/masks-summary/

 

And if you feel like you want to really challenge your intellect this is better:  https://arxiv.org/pdf/2004.13553.pdf

 

 

Took a glance, i’m  good, gotta love academia, hope they got an A on the paper. As I said no rabbit holes on this topic.  

[tlw440]

5 hours ago, pc_load_letter said:

Not no but HELL NO

We have a winner!!!!!

[PhillyFan33579]

4 hours ago, jimbo5544 said:

You might want to check out Faucci’s last take on masks and their real affect on potential for stopping virus spread.  Someone here posted a link of where these hotspots are (British epidemiologist - who by the way I think poked a whole In the modeling errors as well that were saying over a million deaths).  In iterations of tens, the top spots for breakouts were nursing homes assisted living and meat packing plants, next ten the same and so on.  Of course there a couple of exceptions, but the point in regards to masks and cruising is (in the beginning of cruising) if we can ensure people are healthy when they get on and we mitigate exposures when they arise, masks will make zero difference.  Now, the overseeing body has a major dislike for cruising and has the ability to continue to inflict as much pain as they can and I see nothing that will make them change their minds....so we will see.   

Regardless of how effective or not masks are, I would bet my last dollar the CDC does not approve cruises resuming any time soon without requiring passengers to at least initially wear masks 

[Purvis1231]

5 hours ago, jimbo5544 said:

You might want to check out Faucci’s last take on masks and their real affect on potential for stopping virus spread.  Someone here posted a link of where these hotspots are (British epidemiologist - who by the way I think poked a whole In the modeling errors as well that were saying over a million deaths).  In iterations of tens, the top spots for breakouts were nursing homes assisted living and meat packing plants, next ten the same and so on.  Of course there a couple of exceptions, but the point in regards to masks and cruising is (in the beginning of cruising) if we can ensure people are healthy when they get on and we mitigate exposures when they arise, masks will make zero difference.  Now, the overseeing body has a major dislike for cruising and has the ability to continue to inflict as much pain as they can and I see nothing that will make them change their minds....so we will see.   

The data on mask is unclear and the scientist have changed their ideas. In March Faucci was against mask in public but has changed his thoughts. The medical literature indicates masks are not effective against the flu. There has not been enough time to actually conduct as long term studies with COVID-19 but all scientist generally again COVID-19 is more contagious than the flu. I wear a mask out of the hope it helps and in certain areas it is now required. The best hope for cruising is an accurate quick test that can be used on all staff and passengers . 

[geckoaz]

Scenario

Embarkation in miami

Carnival: please put on this mask sir

CC passenger: i have these studies that say masks are useless and my doctor agrees. (Holds them up)

Carnival: sorry sir you cannot board and no refund because you failed to abide by our terms. 

CC passenger: (what do you do next?)

[jimbo5544]

3 hours ago, PhillyFan33579 said:

Regardless of how effective or not masks are, I would bet my last dollar the CDC does not approve cruises resuming any time soon without requiring passengers to at least initially wear masks 

I do not disagree, no need to bet the last dollar.

Edited May 20, 2020 by jimbo5544

[Organized Chaos]

55 minutes ago, geckoaz said:

Scenario

Embarkation in miami

Carnival: please put on this mask sir

CC passenger: i have these studies that say masks are useless and my doctor agrees. (Holds them up)

Carnival: sorry sir you cannot board and no refund because you failed to abide by our terms. 

CC passenger: (what do you do next?)

 

I'm a believer in the idea that the company sets the policy (like it or not) and if we, as consumers, want to do business with that company, we have to abide by their policies or go elsewhere. For businesses that require masks right now, I wear one. Not because some politician who's drunk on power ordered me to, but out of respect for the business. I want to do business there, so I'll wear the mask if that's what they ask of their customers right now. But the U.S. is not a culture of mask wearers and I don't want to see us become one.

 

If Carnival wanted me to wear a mask during the embarkation process, I'd probably do it as long as the requirement was for a limited time. Knowing all along that a majority of people's masks aren't doing them much good and that it's practically a placebo. But it's just not practical to wear one throughout the rest of the cruise. They're uncomfortable, hot, restrictive, we're eating, we're drinking, and so on. So if they were to require it throughout the cruise, I'd have to pass.

[jimbo5544]

6 hours ago, chipmaster said:

 

You seem interested, perhaps take a read of this: https://www.fast.ai/2020/04/13/masks-summary/

 

And if you feel like you want to really challenge your intellect this is better:  https://arxiv.org/pdf/2004.13553.pdf

 

 

I happened to stumble on two articles that talked about this subject tonight. Interestingly enough, both these down played any transmission other than particles from nose and mouth.  Very interesting,

[ObstructedView2]

 

😷

[ray98]

Absolutely no for me.  In my opinion the masks are mildly effective at best.  Most people are not wearing N95, those that are either don't have them fitted correctly or when they do they are constantly manipulating them due to the breathing restrictions.  All that does is transfer the contamination to the hand which they spread by touch.  The fabric masks are just a compromise to get more people to wear masks but to a virus it looks like a chain link fence.  Sure it may stop the largest of droplets from a cough or sneeze by the wearer but the mask still becomes contaminated and does not seal.  The wearers are constantly touching them also which again leads to spreading by touch.

 

We wear N95 at work along with gloves, face shields occasionally, on certain encounters where we contact a COVID or Flu patient.  We all know how to don and doff PPE, that is 75% of the battle.  We also recognize the cumulative breathing distress is causes and try to limit exposure to an hour at a time without a break, we provide relief if necessary.  Just sit around and watch people in a store.  They are constantly touching their face and mask, even with gloves that has touched who knows what.  Then they will use their gloved hand to tap away on their cell phone and touching everything in site.  Some even wear the same gloves driving their car.  Their gloves are nothing but the medium they use to cross contaminate everything including what they pick up from their mask.  It baffles me.

 

 

[Doggielover68]

15 hours ago, chipmaster said:

 

I would say all the hot spots when they became hotspots weren't very big users of masks, but now they are, let's see what happens.   

 

To insure people on the ship are healthy versus disease free are two things.  Healthy, I'd laugh and say you'd lose more than 1/2 of the customers, disease free maybe only 1% of them or less.  

 

Now even with testing if anyone gets on that has something that is as highly contagious as SARS-CoV-2 then masks are become interesting.  There were some subtle changes in the recent CDC recommendations.   The evidence that human-human is become larger and in this light masks become more interesting.

 

You could argue that the US now as they are starting to open is also a mask wearing company now, forget the selfish demonstrators who are symbolic about their right to go maskless.  Why don't they also show up with no shoes and clothes as well if their freedom is so important to them?

 

 

This 100%

I have family in Taiwan, where mask wearing is common all of the time, even more so now. Life is mostly normal there right now with no local lockdowns. Cases have been under control for a long time. 

 

When more people wear masks, there is less airborne transmission. For people that can't understand this, think about blowing your nose into a thin tissue. When you stack the tissues, fewer particles get through. 

 

People seem to think that being American means that you have the right to infect the general public with your germs. The amount of selfish people on this thread is unreal.

[skridge]

4 minutes ago, Doggielover68 said:

This 100%

I have family in Taiwan, where mask wearing is common all of the time, even more so now. Life is mostly normal there right now with no local lockdowns. Cases have been under control for a long time. 

 

When more people wear masks, there is less airborne transmission. For people that can't understand this, think about blowing your nose into a thin tissue. When you stack the tissues, fewer particles get through. 

 

People seem to think that being American means that you have the right to infect the general public with your germs. The amount of selfish people on this thread is unreal.

Thank you for this post.  The entitlement of so many people on these boards is amazing.  It is refreshing to read something that is so realistic.  Thank you.

[geckoaz]

America is a big place. Lots of different experiences with covid. Lots of different opinions.  Ships have people from all over the world. When we travel we always try to show respect for others. 

Edited May 20, 2020 by geckoaz
Wrong article

[dallasdan]

Because I don't want to wear a mask on a cruise does not mean I am selfish or entitled.  The issue is would you wear a mask on the cruise if required.  I would not.  I would wear the mask on embarkation, but once on the ship, I would not.  

[lovetocruise79]

I read an article on Disney Springs the first Park Disney is opening. They are requiring any guests age three or older to wear a mask. I realize this is not a cruise, but I thought it interesting seeing the number of guests that visit the parks. Makes me think they will be requiring masks on board. 

[skridge]

I would not wear a mask on a ship, because I would not cruise during the time of corona virus.  I look forward to cruising again when it is safe.