Omg. Fred have bought the 2 flagships of Holland America! We finally get decent sized ships in the UK!

[hamishg]

13 hours ago, braemar12 said:

Fred. Olsen senior is the Chairman of Bonheur while his daughter Annette is the Managing Director.

Carnival running – CMV as a “mid ship fleet” is an interesting prospect – could give Olsen’s a bit of competition price wise … but that wouldn’t be a bad thing as I think they have been getting away with “over pricing” for a while – you only have to look at the profit they have made vs CMV to see how well they have done.

I think the purchase of these 2 ships (almost certainly at a very low price) stood up so well as a business case that even Annette would have to have agreed that it was a good idea. I think there were looming issues regarding both Black Watch and Boudicca with regard to sailing in Norwegian waters which could have made life difficult.

The significant thing is that they are only replacing two of their ships and not increasing the fleet size – so it still business as usual  - shame as there is a lot of scope for them doing new routes…

Others have commented that the 2 new ex HAL ships aren’t in great shape, but I’d bet they are in a lot better order than if they had done a year or two with P&O Australia who really run their ships into the ground – and to be fair Olsen’s’ are not frightened to spend serious money on maintenance and refitting so I’d expect that when they start they will be in fairly good nick.

The other point is that both these additions are capable of doing “round the world” sailings  which  makes them an excellent fit after losing BW and BD

[tring]

12 hours ago, hamishg said:

Carnival running – CMV as a “mid ship fleet” is an interesting prospect – could give Olsen’s a bit of competition price wise … but that wouldn’t be a bad thing as I think they have been getting away with “over pricing” for a while – you only have to look at the profit they have made vs CMV to see how well they have done.

I think the purchase of these 2 ships (almost certainly at a very low price) stood up so well as a business case that even Annette would have to have agreed that it was a good idea. I think there were looming issues regarding both Black Watch and Boudicca with regard to sailing in Norwegian waters which could have made life difficult.

The significant thing is that they are only replacing two of their ships and not increasing the fleet size – so it still business as usual  - shame as there is a lot of scope for them doing new routes…

Others have commented that the 2 new ex HAL ships aren’t in great shape, but I’d bet they are in a lot better order than if they had done a year or two with P&O Australia who really run their ships into the ground – and to be fair Olsen’s’ are not frightened to spend serious money on maintenance and refitting so I’d expect that when they start they will be in fairly good nick.

The other point is that both these additions are capable of doing “round the world” sailings  which  makes them an excellent fit after losing BW and BD

 

Hi,

 

Just realised who you are and hope you got home OK after your Boudicca trip earlier this year.  We got back 24th Feb, so missed any hassle. I have thought about you a lot as your post cruise plans were likely changed, which is a shame having travelled so far.  I hope you got back without too much trouble.  It was good to meet you on the ship.

 

I doubt we will see low prices on any smaller ships going forward - even P&O charge a lot of cash for their current "mid sized" ships and they sell pretty well.  I had often thought CMV were low prices, but quality went with the prices IMO and, with hindsight, looks like they were probably too cheap as I gather they had a loan from an Australian bank very early on in all this. I am thinking that any possibility of Carnival getting involved is only likely if they can buy extremely cheaply - perhaps from administrators at the last call.  I am also wondering if a big reason would be to pick up the CMV customer base.  It may never happen though - we will see..

 

Looking more closely at the new Fred ships they have a lot less passengers per tonnage than many ships, including all current Fred ships, with some very good sized cabins as well.  There have been signs that Fred wants to go up market for a while, so I think that is the way he will want to go, but slowly to keep his customers.  It has been noticeable to us how he has picked up other customers over the years, from Swan and VOD for instance when All Leisure collapsed - Fred gave a 25% reduction on cruises at that time for people who lost cruises with them, (which we did well with even though we were not new to Fred) but I think the ploy worked.  The Boudicca sections of a very long winter journey is very like the cruises offered by All Leisure and the clientele are more interested in where they go and the atmosphere/service on board rather than "luxury" for it's own sake, which is well catered for elsewhere.  Those qualities are much more the Fred base than P&O whose food and service has become poor by comparison in recent years IMO.  Fred's itineraries are the main pull for us and many others though, so he does need to keep that going and I agree that more being offered in more distant parts of the world could be a good move.  The main crux there as I see it though is the number of Brits who want to book flights with a cruise company and Fred has just not got the clout to get good air fares, so charge very silly amounts.  Attracting more customers from overseas may well sort that problem and I would not be surprised if he picks up HAL customers who have preferences for the smaller ships and less common itineraries and they have been used to paying well, especially in OBS costs.  Again we will have to see, but the one thing I am very pleased about is that this style of cruising can hopefully continue without such totally OTT prices of the so called luxury brands.

 

The big Elephant in the ring though is probably the pollution controls that are rightly being introduced in many parts of the world as I am not so sure the "new" older ships will do much, if anything, to solve that, I am not an expert on that though.  I do wonder if, going forward, Fred still goes for a small new build with clean credentials as he has mentioned in questionnaires and elsewhere in recent years (this would allow him to return to polar regions he used to visit).  He would need to charge higher prices, but may still be able to undercut luxury lines and Hurtigruten with their Norweigian costings.  That may depend on how he manages to emerge out of this though.

 

Just my musings.

 

 

[amfc_lenny]

Is it just me who thinks Fred should stick with Amsterdam and Rotterdam and rename their other ships Liverpool and Rome.

 

classic beautiful south song!!

[janmcn]

As a HAL aficionado, I've lurked here on Fred Olsen the last few days, checking to see the comments about our beloved Amsterdam and Rotterdam. I've checked for your northern itineraries (lost the one I was planning to do in '21 due to the Veendam being sold) and was HOPING to find another itinerary that did the FAR north Norway...and found your Boudicca did an itinerary I liked...but didn't care for the ship...SO ...am HOPING that IF the Boudicca is removed, perhaps the Amsterdam or Rotterdam would sail that far north itinerary (that did Greenland, too)...if so I would be a very happy camper! I did the World Cruise in '18 on the Amsterdam and found no faults with her.  So...keeping fingers crossed that I can sail the Boudicca itinerary but on the A'dam or R'dam!...Good luck with the new ships, no matter what...I loved them, but shall keep watch on your site.

Edited July 17, 2020 by janmcn

[tring]

2 hours ago, amfc_lenny said:

Is it just me who thinks Fred should stick with Amsterdam and Rotterdam and rename their other ships Liverpool and Rome.

 

classic beautiful south song!!

 

Well I do like the idea of a ship being named after my home city (as well as the current naval ship), but feel I may have missed something - is this a reference to a song I do not know.  If so any chance of a link to words and if poss, tune.

[tring]

55 minutes ago, janmcn said:

As a HAL aficionado, I've lurked here on Fred Olsen the last few days, checking to see the comments about our beloved Amsterdam and Rotterdam. I've checked for your northern itineraries (lost the one I was planning to do in '21 due to the Veendam being sold) and was HOPING to find another itinerary that did the FAR north Norway...and found your Boudicca did an itinerary I liked...but didn't care for the ship...SO ...am HOPING that IF the Boudicca is removed, perhaps the Amsterdam or Rotterdam would sail that far north itinerary (that did Greenland, too)...if so I would be a very happy camper! I did the World Cruise in '18 on the Amsterdam and found no faults with her.  So...keeping fingers crossed that I can sail the Boudicca itinerary but on the A'dam or R'dam!...Good luck with the new ships, no matter what...I loved them, but shall keep watch on your site.

 

Firstly, thank you for bequeathing your ships to us - they look great for Fred.  Fred does a lot to northern Norway, so I am sure will be heading that way again and with the new ships as well.  Greenland has also been a regular so far, as is Spitzbergen, we have enjoyed all.  Not so easy to get ones that combine Northern Norway and Greenland, but combination cruises do appear, so I hope you find one to your taste, or may find a back to back will do the job, even if you have to travel between ports and board a different ship as those destinations are off in different directions.  I am sure you will be warmly welcomed on board by staff and passengers alike.

 

From your link I assume you are from North America.  I have a brother and sister in law in Newfoundland and they have daughters who live in Montreal and Salt Lake City with their families.  A difficult time for all, but nice to have plans for the future.

 

Barbara

[Coravel]

3 hours ago, tring said:

 

Well I do like the idea of a ship being named after my home city (as well as the current naval ship), but feel I may have missed something - is this a reference to a song I do not know.  If so any chance of a link to words and if poss, tune.

 

A very nice song by the Beautiful South Tring.  

 

https://genius.com/The-beautiful-south-rotterdam-or-anywhere-lyrics

[tring]

41 minutes ago, Coravel said:

 

A very nice song by the Beautiful South Tring.  

 

https://genius.com/The-beautiful-south-rotterdam-or-anywhere-lyrics

 

Thanks Coravel - I am a bit too old to know songs from that era, but google tells me Paul Heaton was born in Birkenhead, which is on our side of the river.  Mind you I was born in Liverpool and lived there until I married.

Edited July 17, 2020 by tring

[Britboys]

5 hours ago, janmcn said:

As a HAL aficionado, I've lurked here on Fred Olsen the last few days, checking to see the comments about our beloved Amsterdam and Rotterdam. I've checked for your northern itineraries (lost the one I was planning to do in '21 due to the Veendam being sold) and was HOPING to find another itinerary that did the FAR north Norway...and found your Boudicca did an itinerary I liked...but didn't care for the ship...SO ...am HOPING that IF the Boudicca is removed, perhaps the Amsterdam or Rotterdam would sail that far north itinerary (that did Greenland, too)...if so I would be a very happy camper! I did the World Cruise in '18 on the Amsterdam and found no faults with her.  So...keeping fingers crossed that I can sail the Boudicca itinerary but on the A'dam or R'dam!...Good luck with the new ships, no matter what...I loved them, but shall keep watch on your site.

Welcome - I am sure you will find this a friendly forum. I am afraid however that I am hoping Amsterdam or Rotterdam will not operate Boudicca's itineraries next year. Why? you might ask. I had a cruise on Boudicca in May cancelled due to Covid and chose to swap to a cruise on her next June that does a double-transit of the Kiel Canal. I believe that Amsterdam and Rotterdam are marginally too big to sail the Kiel Canal, so I am hoping Fred will move Balmoral to Boudicca's itineraries as she is due to do two Keil Canal cruises! Nothing personal janmcn 😊

[Coravel]

Well I can tell you that our September Black Sea cruise from Dover on the Boudicca has been cancelled and we have been offered the same holiday from Dover in 2022 but on the Balmoral.  So perhaps Boudicca is to be scrapped or sold on and Balmoral will be transferred to Dover.  

[janmcn]

Britboys: I totally understand you wanting to do the Kiel Canal...we were lucky to do it on HAL's Prinsendam several years ago and it was wonderful...perfect day. I do think, as you, that neither the Amsterdam or Rotterdam can make it. Even the Prinsendam (now gone from HAL) which Is quite similar to your ships had to have all its antenae down for the bridges.

 

I DO hope the incredible Astrolabe in the Amsterdam's atrium (3 stories high) is kept...it's an amazing work of art...and sometimes it works!

 

From what I read here, I think FO is a good match for us, so I'm sure we will try to sail on the ships...we have relatives in the UK, so can always begin or end with some family time as an excuse. We've done many Norway, Iceland, Greenland cruises and love them, so are always looking for new itineraries which FO seems to have.

Thanks for the info...hope you get to do the Kiel...

 

Otherwise, I've attached a photo of our cabin for the Amsterdam World Cruise...what I call the "9-drawer desk" cabins...standard on the verandahs...hope they don't get rid of them! Best storage cabins in the fleet! Very comfortable cabins (and beds.) I doubt Fred will have to do much with them.

 

[Tapi]

On 7/15/2020 at 11:56 PM, hamishg said:

CMV are financially in trouble but the last thing anyone wants to see is Carnival swallowing yet another cruise line.

While I understand your sentiment, it is because Carnival swallowed some of these cruise lines why they didn’t go out of business. Even beloved Cunard probably would’ve ceased to exist if Carnival hadn’t swallowed them. 

[ScottishMaid]

I am British, living in California, and have travelled for many days worldwide on both the Amsterdam and Rotterdam so I am very interested in trying a Fred Olsen Cruise. I did go on a 4 night cruise on the Black Prince where the Norwegian Captain was very friendly.
What is the nationality of the crew, that is the room stewards and the waiters?

[hamishg]

2 hours ago, Tapi said:

While I understand your sentiment, it is because Carnival swallowed some of these cruise lines why they didn’t go out of business. Even beloved Cunard probably would’ve ceased to exist if Carnival hadn’t swallowed them. 

Maybe some - but others probably received "an offer they couldn't refuse" which proved too irresistible to their respective board rooms. I think the "buying up of some of them" was more about eliminating competition than bailing out a bankrupt cruise line. There are plenty of examples of smaller cruise lines that still do well if they are managed properly: TUI, Fred Olsen, Hurtigruten immediately come to mind - and there are others...

[hamishg]

2 hours ago, ScottishMaid said:

I am British, living in California, and have travelled for many days worldwide on both the Amsterdam and Rotterdam so I am very interested in trying a Fred Olsen Cruise. I did go on a 4 night cruise on the Black Prince where the Norwegian Captain was very friendly.
What is the nationality of the crew, that is the room stewards and the waiters?

The Officer crew tend to be mostly European with quite a few from Scandinavia while the waiting/household staff tend to be from the Philippines, Indonesia, etc. They are normally all very friendly and easy to get along with. We have found the food to be fairly high standard without being spectacular - lots of quiet areas, very few queues and comfortable seating at the right height for older passengers. 

[hamishg]

13 hours ago, tring said:

 

Hi,

 

Just realised who you are and hope you got home OK after your Boudicca trip earlier this year.  We got back 24th Feb, so missed any hassle. I have thought about you a lot as your post cruise plans were likely changed, which is a shame having travelled so far.  I hope you got back without too much trouble.  It was good to meet you on the ship.

 

I doubt we will see low prices on any smaller ships going forward - even P&O charge a lot of cash for their current "mid sized" ships and they sell pretty well.  I had often thought CMV were low prices, but quality went with the prices IMO and, with hindsight, looks like they were probably too cheap as I gather they had a loan from an Australian bank very early on in all this. I am thinking that any possibility of Carnival getting involved is only likely if they can buy extremely cheaply - perhaps from administrators at the last call.  I am also wondering if a big reason would be to pick up the CMV customer base.  It may never happen though - we will see..

 

Looking more closely at the new Fred ships they have a lot less passengers per tonnage than many ships, including all current Fred ships, with some very good sized cabins as well.  There have been signs that Fred wants to go up market for a while, so I think that is the way he will want to go, but slowly to keep his customers.  It has been noticeable to us how he has picked up other customers over the years, from Swan and VOD for instance when All Leisure collapsed - Fred gave a 25% reduction on cruises at that time for people who lost cruises with them, (which we did well with even though we were not new to Fred) but I think the ploy worked.  The Boudicca sections of a very long winter journey is very like the cruises offered by All Leisure and the clientele are more interested in where they go and the atmosphere/service on board rather than "luxury" for it's own sake, which is well catered for elsewhere.  Those qualities are much more the Fred base than P&O whose food and service has become poor by comparison in recent years IMO.  Fred's itineraries are the main pull for us and many others though, so he does need to keep that going and I agree that more being offered in more distant parts of the world could be a good move.  The main crux there as I see it though is the number of Brits who want to book flights with a cruise company and Fred has just not got the clout to get good air fares, so charge very silly amounts.  Attracting more customers from overseas may well sort that problem and I would not be surprised if he picks up HAL customers who have preferences for the smaller ships and less common itineraries and they have been used to paying well, especially in OBS costs.  Again we will have to see, but the one thing I am very pleased about is that this style of cruising can hopefully continue without such totally OTT prices of the so called luxury brands.

 

The big Elephant in the ring though is probably the pollution controls that are rightly being introduced in many parts of the world as I am not so sure the "new" older ships will do much, if anything, to solve that, I am not an expert on that though.  I do wonder if, going forward, Fred still goes for a small new build with clean credentials as he has mentioned in questionnaires and elsewhere in recent years (this would allow him to return to polar regions he used to visit).  He would need to charge higher prices, but may still be able to undercut luxury lines and Hurtigruten with their Norweigian costings.  That may depend on how he manages to emerge out of this though.

 

Just my musings.

 

 

Hi Barbara - good to hear from you - trust you both got home safely. We disembarked the Boudicca in Cyprus (had a nice few days there) and then flew to London. We were going to travel through Spain, France and Cambodia on the way home but could see what was happening and managed to get all our flights re-routed and arrived back in NZ just 6hrs ahead of a compulsory isolation order for all returning NZers. You may well be right that Fred is trying to take the line upmarket but I think he will find it tough - the next level up of smaller boat cruise lines is fairly crowded. They spend a lot of money on marketing which suggests that they are not filling them up all the time, Fred's ships are still fairly old, even with the latest arrivals and don't match well with the offerings of Oceania, Azemara etc. I personally think that there is much more potential in the lower cost smaller ship market - think Marella and CMV. Provided the itineraries are different and interesting, the people will come.  And what will happen to CMV? I believe that most of their fleet was leased anyway so there's not too much to sell. I'm not sure whether Carnival has the patience to run a lower cost mid-ship line which requires a lot more care and guidance to make a profit? I guess the next question is, what will happen to The Black Watch and Boudicca?I can't see anyone raising their hand to pick them up - apart from that budget Spanish cruise company (forget their name) - probably off to the breakers yard which must irk Olsens after just spending quite a bit on upgrading the Black Watch. 

[jeanlyon]

Well that news could bring me back to Fred from P&O.  Thought Black Watch was really awful when we were last on board.  Really shabby.  But 2 new ships could bring me back as long as the prices were reasonable.

[Jammy Bun]

47 minutes ago, jeanlyon said:

Well that news could bring me back to Fred from P&O.  Thought Black Watch was really awful when we were last on board.  Really shabby.  But 2 new ships could bring me back as long as the prices were reasonable.

I agree, we may be back too.  Gave up on P&O about 5 years ago, too much cost cutting and paying for extras onboard. Liked Fred cruises very much, especially at Christmas time, but the cost for a suite (won’t cruise without a balcony) was extortionate.  We bit the billet and booked a Viking Ocean Cruise - seemed expensive, but SO much nicer - and they are now our preferred cruise line (Done 3 ocean cruises with them and 2 rivers).  We should be on one now and have another three booked.  If they go ahead, and if we choose to go.  😏
 

BUT, we have to fly in one direction at least to take a Viking cruise.  So a cruise on One of Fred’s ‘new’ ships may be a possibility in these strange times, especially if it sailed from a Northern port.  Sailing from Liverpool is amazing - a close second to sailing from Greenwich on Viking.

 

i do think the decor on these two HAL ships is ‘right’ for Fred’s fleet. I wish them lots of luck, I have very fond memories of all our Fred cruises.

[tring]

59 minutes ago, jeanlyon said:

Well that news could bring me back to Fred from P&O.  Thought Black Watch was really awful when we were last on board.  Really shabby.  But 2 new ships could bring me back as long as the prices were reasonable.

 

Fred's ships have changed a great deal over the last few years and look quite smart now.  Air con system renewed on the older ones as well as that was getting non too good.  We were on Arcadia last August and were extremely surprised how tatty and badly maintained it was and half the loos were constantly out of order as well.  If loos get blocked on Fred they repair them very quickly.  Service and food quality still as good as ever too, but less of the more expensive things. Still plenty of smoked salmon around though.

[tring]

7 hours ago, hamishg said:

Hi Barbara - good to hear from you - trust you both got home safely. We disembarked the Boudicca in Cyprus (had a nice few days there) and then flew to London. We were going to travel through Spain, France and Cambodia on the way home but could see what was happening and managed to get all our flights re-routed and arrived back in NZ just 6hrs ahead of a compulsory isolation order for all returning NZers. You may well be right that Fred is trying to take the line upmarket but I think he will find it tough - the next level up of smaller boat cruise lines is fairly crowded. They spend a lot of money on marketing which suggests that they are not filling them up all the time, Fred's ships are still fairly old, even with the latest arrivals and don't match well with the offerings of Oceania, Azemara etc. I personally think that there is much more potential in the lower cost smaller ship market - think Marella and CMV. Provided the itineraries are different and interesting, the people will come.  And what will happen to CMV? I believe that most of their fleet was leased anyway so there's not too much to sell. I'm not sure whether Carnival has the patience to run a lower cost mid-ship line which requires a lot more care and guidance to make a profit? I guess the next question is, what will happen to The Black Watch and Boudicca?I can't see anyone raising their hand to pick them up - apart from that budget Spanish cruise company (forget their name) - probably off to the breakers yard which must irk Olsens after just spending quite a bit on upgrading the Black Watch. 

 

Glad to hear you got back, though great shame your travels were curtailed.  You make some good points.  When I said up market, I meant by a smaller degree.  I do not know if you have experienced P&O, but Fred's ships were going down a fair bit by comparison until about 5 years ago and then he started spending a lot on doing them up.  P&O in comparison do not seem to maintain their older ships to a good level at all from what we have seen, so they are looking very old.  Food quality has been awful on P&O when we have travelled more recently, sometimes tasting of nothing but salt.  Fred seems to have put himself a step up of P&O now IMO and having to get to Southampton for most cruises is a pain for many people.  If he can just maintain those standards and still offer much better itineraries it could give him the edge on bookings, but yes they will need more passengers and will not be easily secured in the current climate.  There is a market for that sort of cruise that is cheaper than lines you mention, but perhaps command a realistic price, which sadly will be needed compared to the bigger ships.  More  OBS opportunities will be very welcomed by him as well - but if he can persuade older Brits to spend much is a little uncertain.  I am wondering if he will try to market more overseas, hopefully improving on the problems you mentioned you had as non Brits as well.  That could mean doing more around the world and he does seem to get higher prices for the more unusual cruises like that.

 

We will have to see, but certainly appears that he has the support of the main board now.  I had been feeling very nervous about that. 

 

Barbara

Edited July 18, 2020 by tring

[tring]

10 hours ago, ScottishMaid said:

I am British, living in California, and have travelled for many days worldwide on both the Amsterdam and Rotterdam so I am very interested in trying a Fred Olsen Cruise. I did go on a 4 night cruise on the Black Prince where the Norwegian Captain was very friendly.
What is the nationality of the crew, that is the room stewards and the waiters?

  Filipino, Indonesian and a number of Thai crew in recent years as well.  The crew are good, no problems with that.  There are differences to other cruise lines though - I suggest you search for other threads on this board as you will find a number of them.  I have not travelled with Holland America, but from what I have read they appear to have a similar ambiance, i.e. quiet and peaceful with an older clientelle.  Some family friendly cruises in school hols, but few children around I understand and no special kids facilities (we do not cruise at that time). 

Edited July 18, 2020 by tring

[jeanlyon]

yes our problem will be the price.  They are way more expensive than P&O, probably because of the size.  When I first cruised with Fred, the prices were reasonable, but they are now much more than P&O.  We have 2 booked on Aurora for next year, although I can't see me going on the April one.  Interesting times.

[Britboys]

1 hour ago, jeanlyon said:

yes our problem will be the price.  They are way more expensive than P&O, probably because of the size.  When I first cruised with Fred, the prices were reasonable, but they are now much more than P&O.  We have 2 booked on Aurora for next year, although I can't see me going on the April one.  Interesting times.

You had better hope that you have the option to go on Aurora in April Jean. If she isn't back sailing by then, I doubt we'll ever see her in P&O livery again...

[jeanlyon]

Black Watch was in awful condition the last time we sailed on her - about 2 years ago.  I said never again.  I actually didn't like the ship either.  Braemar is a different matter.

[July morning]

We've only been on Braemar and had a great time.  Felt a very friendly ship and the food was better than P&O who we normally go with.