Where in the world ?

[Host Hattie]

I can get you photos of Cardiff if you need them !

Have we had Fishguard ? I would have thought Cunard ships would have called there at some point.

[Host Hattie]

On 12/8/2020 at 3:57 PM, ExArkie said:

I did a search of the Wales museum online database and found one entry that says the Lusitania and Mauretania were at Fishguard (Pembrokeshire) starting in 1909.

 

Pictures are shown at:

https://museum.wales/collections/online/object/d1161ee8-9790-3412-a8ef-d5fca0631c59/Cunard-Line-ships-at-Fishguard-1908-9-photograph-album/?field0=string&value0=criccieth&field1=with_images&value1=on&sort=relevance

 

Yes, we've had Fishguard but it's not on the list. Were the museum photos not enough to count @bluemarble ?!

[sfred]

17 minutes ago, Host Hattie said:

I can get you photos of Cardiff if you need them !

Have we had Fishguard ? I would have thought Cunard ships would have called there at some point.

 

5 minutes ago, Host Hattie said:

Yes, we've had Fishguard 

 

I don't have Fishguard on either my seen or unseen lists.  I might have missed including it?  Was there a photo that @ExArkie was referring to? 

 

Yes a Cardiff photo would be great, particularly if it includes a Cunard ships.

[sfred]

Ah I see that @ExArkie included a link to photos in his Dec 2020 post.  @bluemarble, should we add Fishguard to the seen list?

[bluemarble]

47 minutes ago, Host Hattie said:

 

Yes, we've had Fishguard but it's not on the list. Were the museum photos not enough to count @bluemarble ?!

 

32 minutes ago, sfred said:

Ah I see that @ExArkie included a link to photos in his Dec 2020 post.  @bluemarble, should we add Fishguard to the seen list?

 

Those museum photos of Fishguard should count to make our seen Cunard ports list. That link @ExArkie submitted was for our subgame to list Cunard ships with names of regions that have been visited by Cunard ships. I think that may have been before we relaxed the rules for our main game to accept images of Cunard ports from sources other than personal photos or webcam images captured by contributors. Based on our current more relaxed rules we should add Fishguard to our seen ports list.

Edited March 20, 2023 by bluemarble

[Host Hattie]

Thanks for the official ruling!

[bluemarble]

1 hour ago, Host Hattie said:

I can get you photos of Cardiff if you need them !

 

I don't think we have been able to determine that a Cunard ship has ever called at Cardiff. If we can document that a Cunard ship has called at Cardiff, then by all means a photo of Cardiff would be appropriate.

[Host Hattie]

I found this reference but it's not clear whether the ship called at Cardiff 

 

https://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/artifact/luncheon-menu-antonia-cunard-white-star-line-15-jun-1940

 

 

[sfred]

I found this for sale on ebay, a 1930 photo of the Mauritania at Cardiff.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/174574414432

[bluemarble]

4 minutes ago, sfred said:

I found this for sale on ebay, a 1930 photo of the Mauritania at Cardiff.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/174574414432

 

That works for me. Let's go ahead and add Cardiff to our seen ports list.

[Host Hattie]

That's a postcard from a Cardiff hotel,  I can't find any reference to the Mauretania actually visiting Cardiff.  There are plenty of  references to the Fishguard guard and Milford Haven visits, I'm going to need more convincing I'm afraid!

Edit - I did find a photograph of Braemar and she used to be a Cunard ship so I guess it's close enough!

[bluemarble]

42 minutes ago, Host Hattie said:

That's a postcard from a Cardiff hotel,  I can't find any reference to the Mauretania actually visiting Cardiff.  There are plenty of  references to the Fishguard guard and Milford Haven visits, I'm going to need more convincing I'm afraid!

Edit - I did find a photograph of Braemar and she used to be a Cunard ship so I guess it's close enough!

 

That's a fair point that a postcard from a hotel in Cardiff showing Mauretania doesn't necessarily demonstrate Mauretania actually called at Cardiff. It's circumstantial evidence similar to that Cardiff bank shipping gold on the Antonia. And accepting a photo of Braemar may be a bridge too far since it wasn't a Cunard ship at the time.

 

Let's keep looking to see if we can demonstrate a Cunard ship called at Cardiff before we add Cardiff to our seen ports list. It certainly seems logical that a Cunard ship would have called there at some point.

Edited March 21, 2023 by bluemarble

[exlondoner]

In the Roman Occupation of Britannia, they stationed three or four legions here, usually three. This was a lot (out of a total of about 26), and indicates how rebellious the province was. For most of the time, one was at Caerleon (Isca), near Newport, in South Wales, and one was at Chester (Deva). The fact that these were both in effect on the frontier of what was later Wales does not suggest it was well absorbed into the empire, unlike places like the south of France, the East of Spain, SE England, and the African provinces. So I’m very doubtful about Holyhead and Milford Haven.

 

 

[sfred]

6 minutes ago, exlondoner said:

In the Roman Occupation of Britannia, they stationed three or four legions here, usually three. This was a lot (out of a total of about 26), and indicates how rebellious the province was. For most of the time, one was at Caerleon (Isca), near Newport, in South Wales, and one was at Chester (Deva). The fact that these were both in effect on the frontier of what was later Wales does not suggest it was well absorbed into the empire, unlike places like the south of France, the East of Spain, SE England, and the African provinces. So I’m very doubtful about Holyhead and Milford Haven.

 

Wikipedia's wording of the Roman presence in Wales as a military occupation, and the pages for the history of specific Welsh locations typically talk about a Roman "fort" or military "watchtower".  A military presence is quite different to the governmental, economic, religious, and lifestyle integration that you point out was the case in other places.  I've not read anything about Wales having Roman villas, baths, amphitheatres, basilicas, temples, etc., This does suggest that it might be a stretch to say that Wales was a part of the Roman Empire.  I'm happy to take Wales out of my model formula, which reduces the Roman Empire port total to 186.

[exlondoner]

6 minutes ago, sfred said:

 

Wikipedia's wording of the Roman presence in Wales as a military occupation, and the pages for the history of specific Welsh locations typically talk about a Roman "fort" or military "watchtower".  A military presence is quite different to the governmental, economic, religious, and lifestyle integration that you point out was the case in other places.  I've not read anything about Wales having Roman villas, baths, amphitheatres, basilicas, temples, etc., This does suggest that it might be a stretch to say that Wales was a part of the Roman Empire.  I'm happy to take Wales out of my model formula, which reduces the Roman Empire port total to 186.

It’s not my period, but I should imagine there may be all sorts of villas etc near Caerleon, and on the Welsh side of the Severn south of Gloucester. But as a whole, as you say, I don’t think much of Wales was lucky enough to be part of the empire. Poor fools, no hot baths, and no underfloor central heating.

[bluemarble]

I may have found evidence of Cunard ships having called at Cardiff. Quoting from:

https://www.shippingwondersoftheworld.com/cardiff.html

 

"Other Atlantic liners which have berthed in Queen Alexandra Dock or have called at Cardiff and embarked passengers by tender include the Cunard White Star Scythia (19,761 tons) and Ausonia (13,912 tons)"

 

There's also a British Pathé video titled "HOME TO THE LAND OF MY FATHERS" (AKA U.S.L. GEORGE WASHINGTON) (1928). The description of that video mentions "Titles and first section of story missing, that showed Cunard Liner Scythia bringing hundreds of Welsh-Americans to Cardiff for the National Eisteddfod."

[sfred]

🙂  I was just about to post that same reference!   After finding that paragraph in the Shipping Wonders of the World site, I continued trying to find additional evidence of the Scythia or Ausonia in Cardiff. 

 

I didn't find anything on Ausonia, but for Scythia I found a genealogy page that mentions a passenger traveling to Cardiff on the Scythia: (http://www.chrisgrant.eu/genealogy/evans/evans/richard.html)

"1928. Richard F Evans , 27, travelled from N Y to Cardiff , 30/7/1928, on the Scythia, Cunard" 

 

[exlondoner]

I think I would definitely count Cardiff as being in the Roman Empire. They seem to have demolished their large fortress and built a much smaller one, which implies a peaceful settlement. What do we think about Southern Scotland? The pursuit of scholarship never ends.

[exlondoner]

‘Where the make a wilderness they call it peace.’ Tacitus on the aftermath of the battle of Mons Graupius.

 

On reflection, I think we should definitely discount Southern Scotland, the Antonine Wall was just a gesture, and thereafter the Picts were left alone. 

[NE John]

2 hours ago, sfred said:

"1928. Richard F Evans , 27, travelled from N Y to Cardiff , 30/7/1928, on the Scythia, Cunard" 

I have a Masters of Military History degree so your use of source quotation is appreciated!

The traveler may have come from Bryn Mawr/Gladwyne/Llanerch, Penn. 

[babs135]

Couldn't see any mention of Cardiff here but still interesting

 Cunard Line (timetableimages.com)

[exlondoner]

6 minutes ago, babs135 said:

Couldn't see any mention of Cardiff here but still interesting

 Cunard Line (timetableimages.com)

Fascinating. And there in 1910 is little Carpathia on her Med. itinerary which had her not quite near enough to rescue all those on Titanic.

[exlondoner]

4 hours ago, exlondoner said:

It’s not my period, but I should imagine there may be all sorts of villas etc near Caerleon, and on the Welsh side of the Severn south of Gloucester. But as a whole, as you say, I don’t think much of Wales was lucky enough to be part of the empire. Poor fools, no hot baths, and no underfloor central heating.

Sorry, I am about to make things worse. The Romans started the Dolaucothi gold mine in Carmarthenshire, which are still in production. I would think the infrastructure required for this, including aqueducts and waterwheels, and mills, would suggest something more settled than a military occupation. Perhaps you better reinstate Wales, though I’m not convinced most of it was subdued, but you really don’t set up a gold mine if surrounded by truculent inhabitants, I should have thought.

[bluemarble]

1 hour ago, babs135 said:

Couldn't see any mention of Cardiff here but still interesting

 Cunard Line (timetableimages.com)

 

Yes, that is an interesting site. It was one of the sources I used while researching Cunard ports for our unseen ports list. Some of those ports go by different names on modern itineraries (Fiume = Rijeka, Leghorn = Livorno, Smyrna = Izmir, Syra = Syros, Constantinople = Istanbul). That's why you won't find those older/alternate names on our unseen ports list.

[bluemarble]

Now that I think we've established Cardiff as a Cunard port, we should make it official with one of your Cardiff photos, @Host Hattie since we can't assume that Mauretania postcard is showing Cardiff. Something taken around the port area/waterfront would be ideal, but as you know we haven't been particular about photos actually having to show the port itself.