Shorex bubble?

[pinotlover]

2 hours ago, KirkNC said:

Right now when you book a cruise you are buying a pig in a poke as we don’t know what Covid protocols will be in place.

I really like Uniworld and their cruises. Also they are very upfront with what their protocols are going to be. They don’t want their passengers buying that “ pig in a poke”. One can go to their website and read most of the new protocols, and if you don’t like them don’t book.

 

Just as an example, in the past they have had open seating in the various ding venues just like Oceania. They tell you they can’t accommodate that with capacity limits. Not only must they limit the number of overall cruisers, but additionally the number in the venues. Guests will be assigned dining times. Hope we don’t draw the 6:00 am breakfast, or the 20:30 dinner!

 

I could go on, there are multiple more, but if interested you can read them yourself. Up front and honest. Now, a show of hands that believe that Oceania can continue to allow the mad crush that occurs in the Terrace at breakfast. Even with reduced capacity ships, additional measures will be required for crowd control. What will those measures be, where can I read about them ?

 

If Uniworld can be upfront and define protocols, why do others choose not to? 

[sofietucker]

1 hour ago, pinotlover said:

If Uniworld can be upfront and define protocols, why do others choose not to? 

 Good question! I seem to recall that Avalon--which we love--has done the same, including all-assigned meal times. It's a shame about not sharing tables, as we have really enjoyed getting to know our fellow cruisers on such small ships.

Bubbles: We had to cancel our Budapest cruise in 2019 and had planned to go early & bum around, as we always do on our European departures...

~So that's the one question I don't see answers to, anywhere: In spite of requiring a covid test in advance, who's to say one won't be catching cooties in the departure port? Alternatively, what about required quarantines in those cities? Will they only allow bypassing quarantine for pax who deplane and go straight to a ship?

[pinotlover]

Sofie;

 

I believe that Uniworld’s stated position is that they will only require ship ( bubble) tours if the host country requires it.

 

Now that is at least a stated position. However, it is not a one size fits all statement. For example, what they do/allow in France may be different than in Portugal. Some people struggle with that concept preferring uniformity over choices. 
 

We have yet to receive any statement or commitment from Oceania on this point. Might we arrive at a port and have Celebrity and Viking passengers roaming at will ( as allowed) with Oceania mandating only ship tours? They don’t choose to say.

[Tranquility Base]

3 hours ago, pinotlover said:

 

If Uniworld can be upfront and define protocols, why do others choose not to? 

 

14 minutes ago, pinotlover said:

 

We have yet to receive any statement or commitment from Oceania on this point. 

Are you getting the hint re restart date yet ?

Edited February 10, 2021 by Tranquility Base

[ORV]

3 hours ago, pinotlover said:

Sofie;

 

I believe that Uniworld’s stated position is that they will only require ship ( bubble) tours if the host country requires it.

 

Now that is at least a stated position. However, it is not a one size fits all statement. For example, what they do/allow in France may be different than in Portugal. Some people struggle with that concept preferring uniformity over choices. 
 

We have yet to receive any statement or commitment from Oceania on this point. Might we arrive at a port and have Celebrity and Viking passengers roaming at will ( as allowed) with Oceania mandating only ship tours? They don’t choose to say.

This is why smart money is waiting to see what the new product and protocols will be before putting any money on the table. I've been saying this(and practicing it for months). 

[Kate-AHF]

39 minutes ago, ORV said:

This is why smart money .....

 

Just had to say I love the new signature.  "Dr. Rick" is a household legend here and is constantly quoted.

[ORV]

1 minute ago, Kate-AHF said:

 

Just had to say I love the new signature.  "Dr. Rick" is a household legend here and is constantly quoted.

Good to see it's appreciated. They're one of the few commercials that I don't mute and gives me a chuckle time after time. I see myself in way too many of those people. 

[mringenoldus]

On 2/9/2021 at 7:18 PM, njhorseman said:

How many people who are not insiders with intimate knowledge of the cruise industry would know that "sold out" doesn't mean sold out in the usual sense, but rather 60% of capacity ? I'll tell you how many...none. My point is that the press release as worded deceives the media that publish it, and those that read the resulting media reports, which includes stockholders and the public at large. It's deception by omission of a key fact.

The 60% capacity number is an average. Currently cruise lines are planning to return to sail between 50-70% capacity.

[njhorseman]

1 hour ago, mringenoldus said:

The 60% capacity number is an average. Currently cruise lines are planning to return to sail between 50-70% capacity.

The exact percentage is irrelevant to my point. Whatever percentage of  the actual ship's capacity is the booking limit, when it's less than 100% calling the ship "sold out" is deceptive.

[mringenoldus]

2 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

The exact percentage is irrelevant to my point. Whatever percentage of  the actual ship's capacity is the booking limit, when it's less than 100% calling the ship "sold out" is deceptive.

I would consider it a distinction without a difference....all cabins available for booking were deposited. This certainly nothing to become overly annoyed about.

[njhorseman]

7 minutes ago, mringenoldus said:

I would consider it a distinction without a difference....all cabins available for booking were deposited. This certainly nothing to become overly annoyed about.

I would call it a distortion of normal practice intended to paint a falsely rosy picture to the press possibly for the purpose of influencing investors.

 

It goes hand-in-hand with the cruise lines not cancelling cruises they know can't sail until they have no choice but to cancel in an attempt to preserve their cash on hand.

[clo]

59 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

It goes hand-in-hand with the cruise lines not cancelling cruises they know can't sail until they have no choice but to cancel in an attempt to preserve their cash on hand.

"preserve cash on hand"? Pardon me but I think anyone who would accept FCCs these days is nut-balls. Take your money and run. I have a res for 9/22 with the deadline for return of deposit in June. A lot has to happen between now and then before I'd be making a final payment.

[njhorseman]

2 hours ago, clo said:

"preserve cash on hand"? Pardon me but I think anyone who would accept FCCs these days is nut-balls. Take your money and run. I have a res for 9/22 with the deadline for return of deposit in June. A lot has to happen between now and then before I'd be making a final payment.

That's my point. IMO no one should accept an FCC now . The prudent decision is to take a cash refund. But the result of most  bookings taking a cash refund is that it drains the cruise lines' cash reserves so they don't want to cancel and start losing that cash any sooner than they absolutely have. 

The cruise lines are cancelling as late as possible to hold on to the cash as long as possible.

[clo]

1 minute ago, njhorseman said:

That's my point. IMO no one should accept an FCC now . The prudent decision is to take a cash refund. But the result of most  bookings taking a cash refund is that it drains the cruise lines' cash reserves so they don't want to cancel and start losing that cash any sooner than they absolutely have. 

The cruise lines are cancelling as late as possible to hold on to the cash as long as possible.

But I will cancel, with full deposit refund, before they do if necessary.

[Tranquility Base]

As well as the possible ship's excursion requirements being discussed, I wonder what sort of onboard contact tracing system various cruise lines will use if needed.

I think that RCI on Quantum out of Singapore uses wristband tracing units to monitor onboard  movements.

Some sort of devise you can wear or carry, along with onboard monitoring units I guess.

Princess has had their Medallion devise for a few years which has been gradually replacing the ship's card. 

 

I would guess some sort of system will likely be a requirement for a while at least.

That way, if / when a case makes it onboard they are able to quickly identify close contacts and thereby minimise disruption to the rest of the ship.

 

My guess is this contact tracing will be used irrespective of vaccination status.

 

[ORV]

10 hours ago, Tranquility Base said:

As well as the possible ship's excursion requirements being discussed, I wonder what sort of onboard contact tracing system various cruise lines will use if needed.

I think that RCI on Quantum out of Singapore uses wristband tracing units to monitor onboard  movements.

Some sort of devise you can wear or carry, along with onboard monitoring units I guess.

Princess has had their Medallion devise for a few years which has been gradually replacing the ship's card. 

 

I would guess some sort of system will likely be a requirement for a while at least.

That way, if / when a case makes it onboard they are able to quickly identify close contacts and thereby minimise disruption to the rest of the ship.

 

My guess is this contact tracing will be used irrespective of vaccination status.

 

Looks like that knocks a big ideological group out of cruising. 

[pinotlover]

10 hours ago, Tranquility Base said:

As well as the possible ship's excursion requirements being discussed, I wonder what sort of onboard contact tracing system various cruise lines will use if needed.

I think that RCI on Quantum out of Singapore uses wristband tracing units to monitor onboard  movements.

Some sort of devise you can wear or carry, along with onboard monitoring units I guess.

 

 

My guess is this contact tracing will be used irrespective of vaccination status.

 

For cruise lines like Oceania, Regent, Princess, etc, with more senior travelers, I just don’t see cruising returning unless all passengers are vaccinated.

 

People should take the time and read the blogs from those cruises in Italy that did go last summer. Just one example, severely limited capacities on elevators with long waits and long lines to facilitate physical distancing. If one can’t do stairs, 30+ minute waits for an elevator was typical. Physical distancing requirements meant shorex sold out quickly. People were stuck aboard because there were no ship tours left to take.

 

I just don’t see lines like Oceania trying to enforce mandatory elevator limits, assigned eating times at assigned tables at all venues, reservations for evening shows with reduced capacity, etc, just to allow antivaxers aboard. What do you believe max capacity for a R ship Lounge would be? Who gets invited to Horizons for the Captains reception? Who doesn’t?

 

There will still be constraints, even with mandatory vaccinations, but not nearly as severe as if they’re not mandatory. I don’t want, and won’t, be on that ship if everyone isn’t vaccinated.

 

 

[Tranquility Base]

31 minutes ago, pinotlover said:

For cruise lines like Oceania, Regent, Princess, etc, with more senior travelers, I just don’t see cruising returning unless all passengers are vaccinated.

Sure, but my point was I think electronic onboard tracing will be used irrespective of vaccination requirements.

Cruise lines will want effective close contact tracing and onboard testing in order to ring fence any case quickly and keep a ship's itinerary intact.

 

Some counties may also mandate this.

They can say, one case means no one off the ship touring for the day; or with effective contact tracing / testing  will still allow those not affected to disembark.

 

The countries most likely to have this requirement are the ones who have the virus well managed now using effective contact tracing and testing.

 

[howiefrommd]

I have been attending several continuing medical education (for licensure renewal requirements) online events during the past few months.  For some reason people think that once vaccination occurs and we obtain herd immunity (70 to 80 percent of the general population vaccinated) that life will return to normal.  Once we obtain herd immunity, that will be the beginning of a long and arduous task towards normalization. 

 

Given the premise that everyone is immunized on a cruise ship,  continued social distancing, etc. will be needed for some time.  I deliberately do not bring up masks as they for some reason have turned quite political. 

 

The other concern of the Infectious Disease and Epidemiology communities is the lack of information regarding length of immunity and how the current mRNA vaccines will deal with variants.  

[pinotlover]

19 minutes ago, howiefrommd said:

I have been attending several continuing medical education (for licensure renewal requirements) online events during the past few months.  For some reason people think that once vaccination occurs and we obtain herd immunity (70 to 80 percent of the general population vaccinated) that life will return to normal.  Once we obtain herd immunity, that will be the beginning of a long and arduous task towards normalization. 

 

Given the premise that everyone is immunized on a cruise ship,  continued social distancing, etc. will be needed for some time.  I deliberately do not bring up masks as they for some reason have turned quite political. 

 

The other concern of the Infectious Disease and Epidemiology communities is the lack of information regarding length of immunity and how the current mRNA vaccines will deal with variants.  

I agree with you totally. Great recent article in one of the rags by scientists that clearly said “ the coronavirus is now endemic to the world. It’s not going away. The only question is how we decide to live with it.”

 

Over time countries decide what level of normalcy they want to bring back. Are cruise ships, ski slopes, swimming pools permanently closed? Hot tubs, steam baths, hydrotherapy pools, saunas, casinos, on ships or in hotels a thing of the past. Sporting events, concerts, Symphony all only remote? Or, do we learn to live with it and assume some risks? I truly believe some will stay hunkered the rest of their lives. Others won’t accept that.  How long will the governments leave everything shuttered before a near total economic collapse happens? Will it take marshal law to stop all the riots, and recall elections, to turn around the shutdowns?

 

 

[sofietucker]

1 hour ago, pinotlover said:

For cruise lines like Oceania, Regent, Princess, etc, with more senior travelers, I just don’t see cruising returning unless all passengers are vaccinated.

 

People should take the time and read the blogs from those cruises in Italy that did go last summer. Just one example, severely limited capacities on elevators with long waits and long lines to facilitate physical distancing. If one can’t do stairs, 30+ minute waits for an elevator was typical. Physical distancing requirements meant shorex sold out quickly. People were stuck aboard because there were no ship tours left to take.

 

I just don’t see lines like Oceania trying to enforce mandatory elevator limits, assigned eating times at assigned tables at all venues, reservations for evening shows with reduced capacity, etc, just to allow antivaxers aboard. What do you believe max capacity for a R ship Lounge would be? Who gets invited to Horizons for the Captains reception? Who doesn’t?

 

There will still be constraints, even with mandatory vaccinations, but not nearly as severe as if they’re not mandatory. I don’t want, and won’t, be on that ship if everyone isn’t vaccinated.

 

 

Right. I had earlier cited the Riviera's single offered shorex at Mitilini, an island with TONS of stuff to do. If they are at 50% capacity, 342 pax, that's still about 5-6 buses, all heading to a single monastery at 8 am...either that or a mad scramble to be in the first cohort to sign up. Nope, na' ga' do.Too much travel time, planning, logisitics, cost to all be jettisoned that way.

Edited February 15, 2021 by sofietucker

[sofietucker]

And just having read that the CDC has pushed the lifting of their restrictions to Nov.1 2021, pretty sure our Dec cruise ain't happening neither...

[pinotlover]

4 minutes ago, sofietucker said:

Right. I had earlier cited the Riviera's single offered shorex at Mitilini, an island with TONS of stuff to do. If they are at 50% capacity, 342 pax, that's still about 5-6 buses,, all heading to a single monastery at 8 am...either that or a mad scramble to be in the first cohort to sign up. Nope, na' ga' do.

Your math is off. This past summer the tour buses likewise had reduced capacity to about 20 passengers each. It would take 5 buses just to get just 100 passengers to that monastery. How many buses are they going to park at one place?

[Brentwood Bay]

The question of safe elevator usage will have to be addressed.  Personally my wife and I make a point of avoiding their use (largely for weight control) but many passengers need them because of mobility issues. With requirements for social distancing and descriptions of 30 minute waits in line for elevator use, where will the lines extend?  The only possibility will be down the adjoining hallways.  That will effectively trap passengers in their cabins or , alternatively,  prevent them from reentering their cabins until the elevator line has been diminished.  Perhaps elevator use will have to be restricted to passengers with serious mobility issues and apportioned by defined time slots.  Perhaps elevator use will have to controlled by ship staff.  Perhaps elevator use will be stopped altogether, as for lifeboat drills and actual emergencies.  This is a serious issue.

[sofietucker]

31 minutes ago, pinotlover said:

Your math is off. This past summer the tour buses likewise had reduced capacity to about 20 passengers each. It would take 5 buses just to get just 100 passengers to that monastery. How many buses are they going to park at one place?

Exactly so, thanks.

And similarly, while we've not encountered such in the Med, in Cartagena (Colombia) last year, the pushing and shouting among the very aggressive street vendors--who followed our small group around!--was unbelievable. (The only place I've seen it almost that bad was Tortola taxi drivers, lol.) I devolved from "No gracias," to No and glare, to ignore. Our guide did nothing.

 

How will tour guides fend those off*, and also ensure the local folks comply with, or at least respect, the ship's bubble practices? Cities dependent on tourism are not going to police the streets...

*I don't fear aggressive vendors, and am comfortable dealing with them. But I do fear them breathing on me.

Edited February 15, 2021 by sofietucker