NCL vaccination policy?

[graphicguy]

6 minutes ago, Stallion said:

The FBI disagrees

Correct.  It's an official Center for Disease Control Document and is issued by the CDC, which is a U.S. Federal Agency.  You counterfeit it, it's a Federal offense.

Edited April 26, 2021 by graphicguy

[roger001]

6 minutes ago, Stallion said:

The FBI disagrees-selling  buying or using a fake  vaccination card with CDC logo is a federal offense

Yea.  Just saw that.

[hallux]

1 hour ago, roger001 said:

The requirement for a vaccine card is a private entity requirement, not a US govt. requirement....yet.  A govt. entity doesn't yet care whether you have one or not or how you go it.  My opinion.  

Requirement to have one for a particular activity is different from the Govt. caring if you're passing off a fake card when one is required.

[harkinmr]

1 hour ago, roger001 said:

The requirement for a vaccine card is a private entity requirement, not a US govt. requirement....yet.  A govt. entity doesn't yet care whether you have one or not or how you go it.  My opinion.  

They do care if you got it by illegal means and present it anywhere. It’s a federal crime with up to 5 years in prison.  If you present that illegal card to the cruise line or for entry into any country requiring them, then you’ll face legal consequences there.  

[BermudaBound2014]

I have few questions maybe someone can answer:

 

We know it's wrong to have a fake vaccination card, but we also know that the market for them is strong and airlines are already being challenged by people using them. I can't find one case  explaining what action the airline took when they discovered a fake card. Unfortunately; it's still very easy to obtain fake cards:

"SAN FRANCISCO -- In a matter of clicks anyone could have access to a fake CDC vaccine card. This is what 45 attorney generals across the nation are highly concerned about."

 

With that, does every vaccination card have an official government seal like a raised seal on a birth certificate? If there is no official seal, is it still punishable under Title 18 section 1017? I hope there is an official seal, but I don't recall seeing one on any of the photos posted on social media.

"In a statement the FBI categorized the unauthorized use of an official government agency's seal (such as HHS or the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)) as a crime. Citing this as an act that could be "punishable under Title 18 United States Code, Section 1017, and other applicable laws,"

https://abc7news.com/fake-vaccine-passport-covid-cdc-usa/10489044/

"Whoever fraudulently or wrongfully affixes or impresses the seal of any department or agency of the United States, to or upon any certificate,...."https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1017

 

 

Finally, let's say we are boarding in Punta Cana with a fake vaccination card. I do believe that NCL WANTS everyone vaccinated, but how might they train the Punta Cana's port staff to recognize the fake cards?  Once recognized wouldn't NCL just refuse boarding? I can't see NCL wanting to actually prosecute (would they even have jurisdiction?).  If not NCL, when would the USA become involved?

 

Certainly we are going to need a way to verify the vaccination cards if we want to have the best possible chance at keeping Covid off the ships. I wonder how quickly that can happen?

[Alegeeter]

NCL says that you must show proof of vaccination two weeks before boarding so it’s not as simple as showing you card when you board. From my confirmation email:

 

”Each guest must submit proof they have completed the full cycle of required doses for the vaccine administered at least 2 weeks prior to their sail date.”

 

I wonder if NCL will require a more legitimate electronic record than the CDC card, requiring folks to contact their county or state’s Immunization Registry for an official record. That would insure no false records are used. But they would need to notify guests sooner than later about what forms of proof they’ll accept so that guests can get their records of proof in order. So far there hasn’t been any communication about where to upload our vaccine record or what is acceptable.

Edited April 27, 2021 by Alegeeter

[BermudaBound2014]

11 minutes ago, Alegeeter said:

NCL says that you must show proof of vaccination two weeks before boarding so it’s not as simple as showing you card when you board. From my confirmation email:

 

”Each guest must submit proof they have completed the full cycle of required doses for the vaccine administered at least 2 weeks prior to their sail date.”

 

I wonder if NCL will require a more legitimate electronic record than the CDC card, requiring folks to contact their county or state’s Immunization Registry for an official record. That would insure no false records are used. But they would need to notify guests sooner than later about what forms of proof they’ll accept so that guests can get their records of proof in order. So far there hasn’t been any communication about where to upload our vaccine record or what is acceptable.

Thank you for sharing. Does your vaccine card have an official  seal of anykind? Also, do you just take a photo of your vaccine card and upload it? 

Edited April 27, 2021 by BermudaBound2014

[Alegeeter]

5 minutes ago, Heymarco said:

That just means they have to have their last shot two weeks before the cruise so it has time to kick in. 🤣. You are not considered fully vaccinated until two weeks after. I don’t think this has anything to do with the timing of showing the card before the cruise. 🤣

I am aware of what fully vaccinated means. I am a COVID-19 epidemiologist after all 🤪

 

The guest confirmation states in full: 

“All guests sailing aboard cruises with embarkation dates through October 31, 2021 are required to be fully vaccinated at least 2 weeks prior to departure in order to board. Each guest must submit proof they have completed the full cycle of required doses for the vaccine administered at least 2 weeks prior to their sail date. Guests who are not old enough to be vaccinated or otherwise not eligible to be vaccinated will not be allowed on these sailings.”

 

So yes, you are right that you need the vaccine course completed two weeks before sailing but you also need to SUBMIT the proof at least two weeks before sailing.

Edited April 27, 2021 by Alegeeter

[Alegeeter]

1 minute ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

Thank you for sharing. Does your vaccine card have an official  seal of anykind? Also, do you just take a photo of your vaccine card and upload it? 

Unknown. There is so place to upload anything as of yet.

[graphicguy]

The COVID Vaccine card has the name of the healthcare professional who administered it, the actual manufacturer of the vaccine, the batch and dose number administered.  If any of these items were duplicated from another source, it would be pretty easy to find out because the administrator enters that information into a database.  I would think that database would be accessible to those who have to check it, as I'm sure the cruise lines would before allowing you to check in.  Your card has your name on it.  If you're trying to use someone else's name, someone else's COVID batch number, someone else's dosage number, it's going to be easy enough to ascertain.

 

I'm thinking anyone who tried to pass off a counterfeit vaccine card to airlines, cruise lines, hotels, etc would be immediately flagged for detention at the gate, dock, check in desk, etc for further processing by the FAA, Port Authorities or local municipalities.  No entity wants to be known for, or associated with, any forger or counterfeiter.  That would be an association that would not only be bad for PR, but also might open them up for prosecution, also.

 

I still don't know why anyone would actually try this?  Are people really that stupid?  How hard is this to understand?  No COVID Vaccine?  No cruising with NCL.  

Edited April 27, 2021 by graphicguy

[Alegeeter]

Just spoke with NCL - though who knows how much the person I spoke with actually knows but she said that 30 days before sailing guests will receive an email about what is required to submit proof of vaccination *before* arriving to the pier. They're still working out the details, which is why we don't know anything yet.  I know I know, take this grain of salt.

 

But I think this is line with  GraphicGuy. NCL may want to verify the proof in various databases but that would take some time to do for all guests, which is why I think it makes sense to submit the proof online ahead of time. I can't imagine they would leave the arguably most important safety measure up to the folks checking in guests at the pier. 

[MeHeartCruising]

1 hour ago, graphicguy said:

The COVID Vaccine card has the name of the healthcare professional who administered it, the actual manufacturer of the vaccine, the batch and dose number administered.  If any of these items were duplicated from another source, it would be pretty easy to find out because the administrator enters that information into a database.

 

My CDC vaccination card only has the pharmacy name, vaccine manufacturer and batch lot number and the initials of the person who gave me the shot.  There is no unique dosage identifier.   My brother's has exactly the same info on it.  We got our shots at the same time.

Edited April 27, 2021 by MeHeartCruising

[BermudaBound2014]

On 4/26/2021 at 9:42 AM, Stallion said:

The FBI disagrees-selling  buying or using a fake  vaccination card with CDC logo is a federal offense

 

Best I can tell, none of the current vaccine cards have an actual CDC logo or raised seal. It's certainly not morally correct to purchase a fake vaccine card, but the current cards circulating don't appear to be official federal documents. I'm not convinced having one of the current paper cards issued by the local walgreens is going to fall as a federal offence.

 

2 hours ago, graphicguy said:

I still don't know why anyone would actually try this?  Are people really that stupid?  

 

Yes, absolutely. People really are that stupid. Best you can hope for is that the number of un-vaccinated who successfully board is statistically irrelevant.

Edited April 27, 2021 by BermudaBound2014

[Stallion]

It doesn't need to be a raised seal-the federal statute says buy, use or sell etc of a federal logo. I'll find the statute again. here is the FBI warning

 

https://www.ic3.gov/Media/Y2021/PSA210330

[Stallion]

18 USC 1017

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1017

 

The CDC seal is in the top right hand corner of the vaccination card

Edited April 27, 2021 by Stallion

[BermudaBound2014]

14 minutes ago, Stallion said:

It doesn't need to be a raised seal-the federal statute says buy, use or sell etc of a federal logo. I'll find the statute again. here is the FBI warning

 

https://www.ic3.gov/Media/Y2021/PSA210330

 

Thank you. I have read both documents you shared (and actually linked them above). I understand it's not just a seal. I believe the issue exists in that the current vaccine cards are not federal documents. They are pieces of paper printed at the local walgreens (or wherever you tested). 

 

Since I don't believe current vaccine cards are legal documents, I don't believe they fall under 18 USC 1017 guidance. Of course, if you attempted to affix a federal seal or logo to the vaccine card  that would fall under 18 USC 1017, but no where have I read that travel is requiring such an official document. 

 

Am I missing something? 

 

Edited to add: I understand the intent of the law, but in this case if NCL doesn't require some official federal identification (seal, stamp, logo, etc...) I don't see where a law was broke in using a falsified vaccine card. Right now, it appears vaccine cards are only as good as the paper they are printed on. Of course, that will likely change. The question for this forum is, will it change before the summer cruises depart? 

Edited April 27, 2021 by BermudaBound2014

[Stallion]

You need to re-read the statute-it doesn't say "legal document" it says certification etc which contains the federal seal. The mere use of the federal seal is a misrepresentation  whether its an official document or not

Edited April 27, 2021 by Stallion

[BermudaBound2014]

10 minutes ago, Stallion said:

You need to re-read the statute-it doesn't say "legal document" it says certification etc which contains the federal seal. The mere use of the federal seal is a misrepresentation  whether its an official document or not

 

Do current vaccine cards contain any "certification etc which contains a federal seal"???

 

 I just had my sis-in-law screen shot me her vaccine card and can't see anything on the card identifying it with a federal seal (or any formal identification) She added that it's on flimsy typing paper (and just has the nurses initials). 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2021 by BermudaBound2014

[BermudaBound2014]

39 minutes ago, Stallion said:

18 USC 1017

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1017

 

The CDC seal is in the top right hand corner of the vaccination card

 

I see you added the part in I highlighted after I responded. Thank you.  If that was the case I absolutely agree that falsifying the card with a CDC seal would fall under Section 1017, but I don't believe the CDC seal/logo is on all vaccination cards (I don't see it on my sister-in-laws). 

 

Can anyone else who has a vaccination card verify that cards have the CDC seal somewhere?

Edited April 27, 2021 by BermudaBound2014

[njhorseman]

5 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

Can anyone else who has a vaccination card verify that cards have the CDC seal somewhere?

Yes...the official CDC logo is located on the upper right hand corner of the card.

[hallux]

37 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

Yes...the official CDC logo is located on the upper right hand corner of the card.

This apparently depends on the state/location of the vaccination.  Mine certainly has it (I was just screnshotting the emblem to post), and it's card stock, but the person you quoted seems to indicate different for the card they were referencing...

Edited April 27, 2021 by hallux

[BermudaBound2014]

Granted this is from mainstream media, and fox at that..... but here is a story about at least one walgreens that was assigning vaccine cards without an official seal. The card in the video looks more like what my sister-in-law has (Michigan) with no official seal. 

 

"LITCHFIELD, Conn. — Some CT residents say Walgreen's pharmacies in CT are running out of official CDC vaccine record cards.....

"After it was done, she handed me a piece of paper. It’s copy machine paper," said Stilson. Walgreens told her they only received 20 official CDC vaccination cards. "

Walgreens told FOX61 they received a limited number but that team members always have access to, “digital copies of dose cards, and can print out additional dose cards from electronic records.” But without an established digitized vaccine passport system, those CDC cards are very important. 

https://www.fox61.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/vaccine/some-ct-pharmacies-are-running-out-of-cdc-vaccine-cards/520-a42053f8-ac1d-46e5-8e2d-07a21d4a17a1

 

Therefore, it appears to me that all vaccine cards SHOULD have an official CDC logo, but not all do. I'm hoping that the number of people who received a vaccine card without an official seal is extremely low and that, in the case described above, Walgreens could provide some type of formal card. I'm having my sister-in-law research her card more. She didn't even realize that she should have a card with a CDC logo. She though the piece of paper she received was all she needed. 

 

This is a mess. I do have faith that we will be able to get vaccine cards all straightened out, but it will take some time. Unfortunately, I do not believe we will ever be able to stop those who choose to break the law by using falsified vaccination cards to travel. 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2021 by BermudaBound2014

[njhorseman]

15 minutes ago, hallux said:

This apparently depends on the state/location of the vaccination.  Mine certainly has it (I was just screnshotting the emblem to post), and it's card stock, but the person you quoted seems to indicate different for the card they were referencing...

 

13 minutes ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

Granted this is from mainstream media, and fox at that..... but here is a story about at least one walgreens that was assigning vaccine cards without an official seal. The card in the video looks more like what my sister-in-law has (Michigan) with no official seal. 

 

"LITCHFIELD, Conn. — Some CT residents say Walgreen's pharmacies in CT are running out of official CDC vaccine record cards.....

"After it was done, she handed me a piece of paper. It’s copy machine paper," said Stilson. Walgreens told her they only received 20 official CDC vaccination cards. "

Walgreens told FOX61 they received a limited number but that team members always have access to, “digital copies of dose cards, and can print out additional dose cards from electronic records.” But without an established digitized vaccine passport system, those CDC cards are very important. 

https://www.fox61.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/vaccine/some-ct-pharmacies-are-running-out-of-cdc-vaccine-cards/520-a42053f8-ac1d-46e5-8e2d-07a21d4a17a1

 

Therefore, it appears to me that all vaccine cards SHOULD have an official CDC logo, but not all do. I'm hoping that the number of people who received a vaccine card without an official seal is extremely low and that, in the case described above, Walgreens could provide some type of formal card. I'm having my sister-in-law research her card more. She didn't even realize that she should have a card with a CDC logo. She though the piece of paper she received was all she needed. 

 

This is a mess. I do have faith that we will be able to get vaccine cards all straightened out, but it will take some time. Unfortunately, I do not believe we will ever be able to stop those who choose to break the law by using falsified vaccination cards to travel. 

 

 

There's an official CDC card. That's what you're supposed to get. Is it possible that some people didn't for whatever the reason? Sure, but's let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater and start wringing our hands in despair because there's some small percentage of people who may not have received the official card. 

[BermudaBound2014]

3 minutes ago, njhorseman said:

 

There's an official CDC card. That's what you're supposed to get. Is it possible that some people didn't for whatever the reason? Sure, but's let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater and start wringing our hands in despair because there's some small percentage of people who may not have received the official card. 

 

I don't think anyone is in despair. This was an interesting conversation for me, I learned something, and I thank you for participating.

 

Plus, Something good came of it. My Sister-in-law is currently trying to figure out how to obtain an official vaccination card with the CDC logo since she got one of the cards similar to the video I linked. Perhaps this conversation may help others on the forum who also received unofficial cards?

 

Would I get on a cruise knowing that it is unlikely that 100% ship is fully vaccinated (regardless what the cruise line claims)? ABSOLUTELY!! 

 

Risk mitigation. 

[lambs2]

Official CDC seal in upper right corner on my husband and my Moderno  vaccine cards from Publix Supermarket here in Florida.