CDC-update May 5th

[ontheweb]

10 hours ago, Tapi said:

I agree! I’d be thrilled to go on such a cruise. But if those are the only places where cruises are allowed to go, that would throw a serious wrench into restart plans. 

And also if those were the only places ships could go, they would be awfully crowded.😢

[chengkp75]

4 minutes ago, topaz123 said:

That's some mighty long arms of the CDC.......1,500 miles from US Waters, in International waters, and yet the  CDC rules apply?

You totally misunderstand the CDC's mandate.  No, their rules don't apply in international waters, just at the 12 mile limit.  They are saying, "if you don't follow these rules outside of our jurisdiction, your choice, then we won't clear you to enter the US, or we will require you to quarantine the ship for 14 days before anyone gets off. Again, your choice, whether you want to enter the US, or not".

[chengkp75]

41 minutes ago, BoozinCroozin said:

In both outcomes, the cruise lines can sail in July.

If the CDC "wins", then the cruise lines could, not can, sail in July, if they meet the other requirements of the CSO, which is what the CDC has said all along about the "mid-July" restart time.  CDC did not say that all lines would automatically restart then, just that if they got their fingers out, the timeline would allow it.

[ProgRockCruiser]

11 hours ago, joeyancho said:

Agree 100%.  Grab and go?  Seriously?  What are we going to do with that?  Have a picnic?

The CDC Tech Instructions say nothing about Grab'n'Go meals - that was an extrapolation from one of the websites "breaking the news".

 

The CDC instructions say:

• Modify meal service to facilitate social distancing (e.g., reconfigure dining room seating, stagger mealtimes, encourage in-cabin dining)
• Eliminate self-serve dining options at all crew and officer messes

And that's fine by me - I like the idea of the variety of foods available from a buffet, I dislike the slobs that don't know how to get themselves food without making a mess or cross-contaminating.

 

I read through the instructions, lots of handwavium about "adequate health and safety protections" and self-supporting boot-strap requirements ("to meet this requirement you must ensure you meet this requirement").

 

I asked my wife if she wanted to go on a test cruise, maybe in June or July, but the likely element of having to wear a mask a lot (the CDC guidelines are back and forth over that) deterred her, so we booked a B&B in Key West instead.

[ProgRockCruiser]

18 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

You totally misunderstand the CDC's mandate.  No, their rules don't apply in international waters, just at the 12 mile limit.  They are saying, "if you don't follow these rules outside of our jurisdiction, your choice, then we won't clear you to enter the US, or we will require you to quarantine the ship for 14 days before anyone gets off. Again, your choice, whether you want to enter the US, or not".

Indeed. To an extent, think of it as the CDC as a household with a yard (or better yet, nearby large public park):  the CDC doesn't care what you do "out there" if you stay "out there".  But if you are coming into my house, here are the rules, including proof of what you did or didn't do "out there".

[toad16X]

Can you clear this up.        "if you don't follow these rules outside of our jurisdiction, your choice, then we won't clear you to enter the US, or we will require you to quarantine the ship for 14 days before anyone gets off. Again, your choice, whether you want to enter the US, or not".  So the CDC would actually have DE FACTO control by saying, wear a mask in international else  we wont clear or we quarantine? Isnt  that  a mandate defacto?

[ProgRockCruiser]

Just now, toad16X said:

Can you clear this up.        "if you don't follow these rules outside of our jurisdiction, your choice, then we won't clear you to enter the US, or we will require you to quarantine the ship for 14 days before anyone gets off. Again, your choice, whether you want to enter the US, or not".  So the CDC would actually have DE FACTO control by saying, wear a mask in international else  we wont clear or we quarantine? Isnt  that  a mandate defacto?

That's exactly how that works, yes.

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, toad16X said:

Can you clear this up.        "if you don't follow these rules outside of our jurisdiction, your choice, then we won't clear you to enter the US, or we will require you to quarantine the ship for 14 days before anyone gets off. Again, your choice, whether you want to enter the US, or not".  So the CDC would actually have DE FACTO control by saying, wear a mask in international else  we wont clear or we quarantine? Isnt  that  a mandate defacto?

No, because the cruise line has the choice of whether to enter the US or not.  If they don't want to enter the US, then they don't have to follow the mask mandate.  ProgRockCruiser's analogy of your fenced yard it appropriate.

[lobster1313]

8 minutes ago, ProgRockCruiser said:

The CDC Tech Instructions say nothing about Grab'n'Go meals - that was an extrapolation from one of the websites "breaking the news".

 

The CDC instructions say:

• Modify meal service to facilitate social distancing (e.g., reconfigure dining room seating, stagger mealtimes, encourage in-cabin dining)
• Eliminate self-serve dining options at all crew and officer messes

And that's fine by me - I like the idea of the variety of foods available from a buffet, I dislike the slobs that don't know how to get themselves food without making a mess or cross-contaminating.

 

I read through the instructions, lots of handwavium about "adequate health and safety protections" and self-supporting boot-strap requirements ("to meet this requirement you must ensure you meet this requirement").

 

I asked my wife if she wanted to go on a test cruise, maybe in June or July, but the likely element of having to wear a mask a lot (the CDC guidelines are back and forth over that) deterred her, so we booked a B&B in Key West instead.

The grab n go does come from COVID-19 Operations Manual for Simulated and Restricted Voyages under the Framework for Conditional Sailing Order.

 

Recommendations

To further reduce the spread of SARS-CoV-2, cruise ship operators as best practices should:

Consider options for consumers to order ahead of time to limit the amount of time spent in the restaurant.

Provide alternative meal services options, such as prepackaged grab-and-go meals, for consumption on open decks or in individual cabins to minimize risks associated with congregate indoor dining.

Use touchless payment options as much as possible, if available. If pens are needed for some purposes, disinfect between uses and/or encourage customers to use their own pens.

[asalligo]

 

This does not eliminate the buffet, just keeps it self serve as it was when Covid first started when I cruised last March. 

 

• Dining
  • Eliminate any self-serve food or drink options, such as buffets, salad bars, and drink stations. This limits the use of shared serving utensils, handles, buttons, or touchscreens and helps customers to stay seated and at least 6 feet (2 meters) apart from people who do not live in their household.

[topaz123]

4 minutes ago, harkinmr said:

No it does not mean that. The mask order covers the vessel if it leaves and then intends to re-enter the US so it would apply for the duration of the voyage.  
 

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/covid19-operations-manual-cso.html

 

Looks like the Cruise Lines Would be the enforcer of the CDC mask mandates in international waters. Can't see the cruise lines pushing this mandate once the ship is thousands of miles off the coast.

[chengkp75]

6 minutes ago, topaz123 said:

Looks like the Cruise Lines Would be the enforcer of the CDC mask mandates in international waters. Can't see the cruise lines pushing this mandate once the ship is thousands of miles off the coast.

As noted, the Master must make a signed declaration that the mask mandate has been followed, in order to obtain clearance into the US.  This makes the Master personally criminally liable for making a false declaration on a federal government document if it is proven false.  I can see Masters "pushing this mandate" in order to avoid jail time and likely loss of maritime license.

[harkinmr]

13 hours ago, embarkation75 said:

Nothing terribly surprising. With that stated, those desiring to get off the ship and meander wherever on their own at ports, are really going to hate this.

 

9 hours ago, WhaleTailFlCruiser said:

I think anyone with any common sense knew these were coming down the pipeline and none of these things will keep me from cruising. 

 

9 hours ago, embarkation75 said:

Doesn't matter what you or I think, it will be what the CDC does until global covid numbers fall enough to consider the pandemic over. The cruiselines seem to understand this as they are not expecting a back to normal for sometime.

 

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/543162-carnival-ceo-cruise-industry-wont-be-back-to-normal-until-2023?amp

Agree. No one should be surprised. Some clearly haven’t been paying attention though. These protocols have been employed quite successfully on cruises sailing already and are going to be employed even on vaccinated sailings leaving from outside the US.  Cruisers can whine and complain, because that’s what we like to do, but that’s not going to change a thing.  

[SRQbeachgirl]

I have written government regulations for a living for the entirety of my career and I can tell a couple of things by reading these regulations:

 

1. The people writing them have never been on a cruise

2. They are written in a way to make it as difficult, costly, and time-consuming (as well as miserable for passengers) as they possibly can

 

For point #1, let's look at this requirement: "Use floor markings in elevator lobbies and near the entrance to escalators to reinforce social distancing of at least 6 feet (2 meters)." Anyone who has actually been on a cruise knows that it would take days to move all the passengers at embarkation and debarkation if they had to follow social distancing on elevators.

 

For point #2, since I've spent the better part of my life writing regulations for federal, state, and local government, I recognize when an agency really wants to just say no, we're not going to let you do this. However, sometimes there are pressures (political, etc.) that force the agency to have to make it appear like it's saying you can do it, if you follow these rules. However, once you dig into the rules you realize that they are making it so burdensome that they are de facto making it nearly impossible to move forward. Not only are they making it burdensome on cruise lines to manage, they are making conditions as miserable as possible for passengers in the hopes that no one (except for the die-hard cruisers) will want to go on a cruise.

 

With all that said, I am leaning toward the expectation that a lot of the nonsense in the CDC regulations will go away in the next few months. This is becoming obvious as a last gasp by the CDC to deem themselves relevant in a situation that has been quickly spiraling out of their control due to political pressure.

 

And for anyone who has read through this post and doesn't think that the CDC is now just being purposely belligerent, there's this gem of guidance they provide: "Masks do not need to be worn in the water, e.g., in RWFs or while swimming in the ocean. A wet cloth mask can make it difficult to breathe and likely will not work correctly." The fact that they felt like they should actually put that ridiculous statement in writing really tells me all I need to know about the CDC's attitude right now.

[topaz123]

Great Post:

 

 there's this gem of guidance they provide: "Masks do not need to be worn in the water, e.g., in RWFs or while swimming in the ocean. A wet cloth mask can make it difficult to breathe and likely will not work correctly." The fact that they felt like they should actually put that ridiculous statement in writing really tells me all I need to know about the CDC's attitude right now.    Pretty much sums up my thoughts on the CDC.

[embarkation75]

5 hours ago, BoozinCroozin said:

May 12th may put an end to the CDC's Reign of Terror on the cruise lines. I believe there is far more at work here than the public knows. The CDC is on grounds that have legal and criminal implications. These people are "doctors" , not lawyers. One false move, one false use of facts and their castle of cards comes tumbling down. The Judge hearing the case is more in line with FL and Alaska than on the CDC.

 

It's not an end all, be all for this issue. But it is definitely something that could have massive repercussions for the CDC and/or the people that work there. We are not talking about an industry that lost $1M, $10M, $100M. We are talking about an industry that lost over $50B. If there is any sliver of evidence of misrepresentation of data, trading of securities in the hospitality industry, or anything else, it becomes criminal and any piece of credibility that they have left is gone. IMO the cruising data over the last 6+ months proves the point of the case. Infection rate on cruise ships is only 0.02%. That is some odd 1000x less likely than land based. 

LOL! You are really putting your hopes in this frivolous suit that has as much chance of doing anything as I do winning the lottery!  Whatever, as I guess it gets you through the down time although you'll likely need some "Boozin" after the 12th passes with nothing changing! 🤣

Edited May 6, 2021 by embarkation75

[ProgRockCruiser]

1 hour ago, regoodwinjr said:

The grab n go does come from COVID-19 Operations Manual for Simulated and Restricted Voyages under the Framework for Conditional Sailing Order.

 

Recommendations

To further reduce the spread of SARS-CoV-2, cruise ship operators as best practices should:

Consider options for consumers to order ahead of time to limit the amount of time spent in the restaurant.

Provide alternative meal services options, such as prepackaged grab-and-go meals, for consumption on open decks or in individual cabins to minimize risks associated with congregate indoor dining.

Use touchless payment options as much as possible, if available. If pens are needed for some purposes, disinfect between uses and/or encourage customers to use their own pens.

Ah, thanks.  I hadn't revisited that document - I thought it was "old news" still.

[musbeus]

No one, especially the CDC, wants to own a potentially bad outcome. They are making the rules incredibly burdensome to protect themselves. We may all ultimately want to just get back to cruising but it is going to be a slow a painful start with very few cruisers without complaints of some sort. 

 

If people would just play nice in the sandbox, we can get closer to normalcy. All it will take is one highly publicized outbreak or suspected outbreak on a cruise ship  to shut it all down for a very long time. 

[musbeus]

21 minutes ago, ProgRockCruiser said:

Ah, thanks.  I hadn't revisited that document - I thought it was "old news" still.

It looks like they reviewed that page yesterday according to the site. Not sure if any changes were  made to any wording.

Edited May 6, 2021 by musbeus
typo

[ProgRockCruiser]

So trawling through the various CDC docs, I see that they are still placing an emphasis on sanitizing surfaces such as pens, use of hand sanitizer, etc.  That all seems a bit outdated based on their latest guidance that surface transmission of COVID-19 was a low risk vector.  From April 5, 2021:

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/science-and-research/surface-transmission.html

 

The principal mode by which people are infected with SARS-CoV-2 (the virus that causes COVID-19) is through exposure to respiratory droplets carrying infectious virus. It is possible for people to be infected through contact with contaminated surfaces or objects (fomites), but the risk is generally considered to be low.

 

Also not taking into account the guidance that fully vaccinated people are not advised to wear a mask outdoors:

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated-guidance.html

• Fully vaccinated people no longer need to wear a mask outdoors, except in certain crowded settings and venues.

 

(And frankly being on a open deck of a ship is about as outdoors as you can get, IMHO, when not crowded around the Red Frog Bar ordering drinks at least.)  

 

Therefore, I would have to say the CDC Operations Manual and Technical Instructions docs for resumption of cruising are ultra-conservative, assuming the worst (unvaccinated) and perhaps over-emphasizing the minority risk vectors (surfaces).

 

To me, it seems they are using this as a "gentle push" (like an iron fist in a velvet glove) towards insisting that (almost) everyone be vaccinated instead.

[nae418]

8 hours ago, cruisingguy007 said:

 

I'll happily sit it out until the second quarter of 2022 and watch from the sidelines. If conditions are the same I'll push that back too. I love cruising but this doesn't really sound like cruising, more like desperation sailing. Sounds like the fun ships won't be much fun at the outset. Hard pass.    

I 100% agree! I along with the 33 of us that was going will also happily sit out. I'm a Platinum Guest and love all the perks that come with cruising and being Platinum.  Your right, this doesn't sound like cruising or a vacation. 

We have some first timers in our group that was looking for some fun. I would prefer they happily sit out as they're really not going to get the fun they were looking for. 

We had our October 31, 2020 Mardi Gras cruise cancel and we got 25% off the next cruise and $250 OBC. Just don't know if that offer will expire, hope we can use it in 2023 if we have to re-book August 7th Cruise.  

[Radiioman46]

All these conditions, do they apply to the fully vaccinated cruises as well, or just the cruises that don't require the vaccinations?

[kleibo]

Aren't there current CDC guidelines for the entire USA right now and the Texas rangers had 40,000 at their home opener - side by side - thousands not wearing masks.  It seems very unfair that the CDC can put these crazy guidelines in place just for Cruises.

 

https://abc13.com/texas-rangers-globe-life-park-mandates-no-in/10488577/#:~:text=Due to the state of,the full 40%2C000-fan capacity.   

[chengkp75]

4 minutes ago, Radiioman46 said:

All these conditions, do they apply to the fully vaccinated cruises as well, or just the cruises that don't require the vaccinations?

Both.  These are the requirements for "simulated" cruises (those non-revenue test cruises) and for the "restricted" (revenue cruises) that happen either after approved simulated cruises or for vaccinated cruises, that still must meet the CSO requirements.

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, kleibo said:

Aren't there current CDC guidelines for the entire USA right now and the Texas rangers had 40,000 at their home opener - side by side - thousands not wearing masks.  It seems very unfair that the CDC can put these crazy guidelines in place just for Cruises.

 

https://abc13.com/texas-rangers-globe-life-park-mandates-no-in/10488577/#:~:text=Due to the state of,the full 40%2C000-fan capacity.   

There are CDC "recommendations" for the US, but they have no jurisdiction to mandate anything to an entity like a baseball stadium, since that does not involve either leaving/entering the US, or traveling across state boundaries.