DeSantis nearing compromise on cruise vaccination requirements

[MrMarc]

5 minutes ago, jfunk138 said:

Clearly your anecdote from Texas Children's Hospital has more merit than a Harvard Public Health professor whose career is based on analyzing data like this.

No, it shows that in at least one urban area, it is rising.  It also shows that children can catch it and be seriously affected or die, at whatever percentage, something that many people are denying. 

[MrMarc]

3 minutes ago, Sinbadssailors said:

 

 

 Last week 31 children were admitted to a hospital. Not this hospital--- In the entire country.

 

How many could this one hospital have, to justify this kind of "hospitalizations are up" fear mongering?

You can call it fear mongering if you like.  It is a verifiable fact, and is a concerning trend.  As opposed to the people claiming children cannot transmit or get sick.  Take the trend in an urban area and concentrate unvacinated people with unvaccinated children on a ship.  Sounds like a really bad idea to me.

[ALWAYS CRUZIN]

3 hours ago, MrMarc said:

Again, for those who believe the hospitals and doctors are lying, this won't matter.  But here is what is happening in the real world: https://abc13.com/kids-in-hospital-covid-19-vaccination-among-where-can-vaccinated/10745055/  The vaccines are not perfect, the more unvaccinated people the more chances of variants that will go around the vaccine, and if someone gets sick on a ship it may effect the entire cruise.  There are a lot of inconvenient facts that support 100% vaccinated cruises for now, but I know that they won't matter to a lot of people.  I have, and am continuing to try and understand people who disagree with me, but it's getting really difficult.

No need to understand. The just do not agree with you. not complicated at all. Your opinion and that is fine.

[Sinbadssailors]

3 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

You can call it fear mongering if you like.  It is a verifiable fact, and is a concerning trend.  As opposed to the people claiming children cannot transmit or get sick.  Take the trend in an urban area and concentrate unvacinated people with unvaccinated children on a ship.  Sounds like a really bad idea to me.

The verifiable fact is that hospitalizations are down for children. 

 

https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/covidnet/COVID19_5.html

[MrMarc]

3 minutes ago, Sinbadssailors said:

The verifiable fact is that hospitalizations are down for children. 

 

https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/covidnet/COVID19_5.html

Again, that is a national trend.  Our local trend is going the other way.  Can you imagine what would happen to cruising if a child caught COVID, or, God forbid, die?  I  am trying to point out how an urban trend might be more relevant to a cruise ship than a national trend.  I'm not arguing with anyone about the numbers as it relates to a national trend.

[jfunk138]

1 minute ago, MrMarc said:

Again, that is a national trend.  Our local trend is going the other way.  Can you imagine what would happen to cruising if a child caught COVID, or, God forbid, die?  I  am trying to point out how an urban trend might be more relevant to a cruise ship than a national trend.  I'm not arguing with anyone about the numbers as it relates to a national trend.

Can you imagine if a hospital had one child in the hospital one day, then the next day they admitted one additional child Covid patient?  At this point, their numbers would have DOUBLED.  Makes for great fear mongering when looked at with anecdotes like this.

 

Public health experts, like those at Harvard, look for larger samples to get meaningful statistics.

[BlerkOne]

Fear mongering is something I think of when some pretend our rights are being eroded permanently because we are trying to put an end to a temporary pandemic. Now that is fear mongering.

[MrMarc]

3 minutes ago, jfunk138 said:

Can you imagine if a hospital had one child in the hospital one day, then the next day they admitted one additional child Covid patient?  At this point, their numbers would have DOUBLED.  Makes for great fear mongering when looked at with anecdotes like this.

 

Public health experts, like those at Harvard, look for larger samples to get meaningful statistics.

I understand that trick, and that is not what I am trying to say at all.  And I am not trying to be a fear monger.  Which do you think is more similar to a cruise ship, the entire country or an urban area?  Do you think I am underestimating the affect of such a scenario occurring on even 1 cruise ship?  That is my point since this thread is about cruising.  I am not arguing that the statistics that you are quoting are less accurate at all, just that the urban area is a better match to what we are talking about.  Yes, the odds are very low, but I think we may be betting the future of cruises out of the US for the near future.

[IntrepidFromDC]

2 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

I am not arguing that the statistics that you are quoting are less accurate at all, just that the urban area is a better match to what we are talking about.  

One urban area is not a better indication of what might happen on a cruise ship.  One anything does not lend itself to quantitative analysis, only qualitative.  If you want to pool all the urban areas, or better yet all the institutions like cruise ships (hospitals? schools?  help me someone...)

[MrMarc]

15 minutes ago, jfunk138 said:

Can you imagine if a hospital had one child in the hospital one day, then the next day they admitted one additional child Covid patient?  At this point, their numbers would have DOUBLED.  Makes for great fear mongering when looked at with anecdotes like this.

 

Public health experts, like those at Harvard, look for larger samples to get meaningful statistics.

But you are correct, they only speak in percentages.   I  could have sworn he actually stated numbers, but I am wrong about that part.  

[songbird1329]

Getting back to the DeSantis lawsuit.

 

judge granted the CDC’s motion to file an additional brief and Florida May file a response.

 

Hearing to be held June 10.

[MrMarc]

1 minute ago, IntrepidFromDC said:

One urban area is not a better indication of what might happen on a cruise ship.  One anything does not lend itself to quantitative analysis, only qualitative.  If you want to pool all the urban areas, or better yet all the institutions like cruise ships (hospitals? schools?  help me someone...)

I totally agree, that would be a better comparison, but I was using what I had available.  

[BlerkOne]

2 minutes ago, IntrepidFromDC said:

One urban area is not a better indication of what might happen on a cruise ship.  One anything does not lend itself to quantitative analysis, only qualitative.  If you want to pool all the urban areas, or better yet all the institutions like cruise ships (hospitals? schools?  help me someone...)

I'm not sure anything can be extrapolated from land to a cruise ship. 

[MrMarc]

1 minute ago, songbird1329 said:

Getting back to the DeSantis lawsuit.

 

judge granted the CDC’s motion to file an additional brief and Florida May file a response.

 

Hearing to be held June 10.

I really wonder how the ban on requiring vaccination proof is going to play in this case.  The State is arguing about the economic impact, but their own law is preventing a faster startup.  Basically they haven't mitigated their damages.

[BlerkOne]

Is there any city on the planet with a population density greater than Allure of the Seas? Didn't think so.

[songbird1329]

1 minute ago, MrMarc said:

I really wonder how the ban on requiring vaccination proof is going to play in this case.  The State is arguing about the economic impact, but their own law is preventing a faster startup.  Basically they haven't mitigated their damages.

That’s not an issue raised in the suit just yet, but I can see it being argued eventually 

[jfunk138]

3 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

I understand that trick, and that is not what I am trying to say at all.  And I am not trying to be a fear monger.  Which do you think is more similar to a cruise ship, the entire country or an urban area?  Do you think I am underestimating the affect of such a scenario occurring on even 1 cruise ship?  That is my point since this thread is about cruising.  I am not arguing that the statistics that you are quoting are less accurate at all, just that the urban area is a better match to what we are talking about.  Yes, the odds are very low, but I think we may be betting the future of cruises out of the US for the near future.

Since cruiseship's attract people from all over the country, and not a single metro (like an urban hospital), I would think the country wide statistics would be relevant.

I have no doubt that the media will try to fear monger about cruiseships, just like they are fear mongering with this anecdotal evidence about child hospitalizations.  But when you've got public health experts publicly fact checking this media fear mongering, it's clear the tide is turning against this fear mongering.

[MrMarc]

2 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

I'm not sure anything can be extrapolated from land to a cruise ship. 

Again,  sometimes you have to use what is available.  Since an urban area has a greater number of people both vaccinated and unvaccinated, it seemed like a better comparison than the whole country, and I had just seen this story.  

[BlerkOne]

2 minutes ago, MrMarc said:

I really wonder how the ban on requiring vaccination proof is going to play in this case.  The State is arguing about the economic impact, but their own law is preventing a faster startup.  Basically they haven't mitigated their damages.

I think it will be dominos once the suit vs the CDC is dismissed. At the very least, an injunction preventing enforcement 

[BlerkOne]

Just now, MrMarc said:

Again,  sometimes you have to use what is available.  Since an urban area has a greater number of people both vaccinated and unvaccinated, it seemed like a better comparison than the whole country, and I had just seen this story.  

It also applies to those trying to manipulate statistics pretending cruise ship travel is as safe as the most sparsely populated rural areas.

[MrMarc]

1 minute ago, BlerkOne said:

I think it will be dominos once the suit vs the CDC is dismissed. At the very least, an injunction preventing enforcement 

See, we can totally agree on this.  Whichever way the case goes will set the tone of the restart.  I think if it is dismissed, the state may rethink the ban, and if it granted, the Cruise industry will probably follow the latest CDC guidelines without the test cruises.But as always, I could be wrong.

[MrMarc]

2 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

It also applies to those trying to manipulate statistics pretending cruise ship travel is as safe as the most sparsely populated rural areas.

Wait, then we agree?  Maybe I'm getting the posts mixed up.

[LeeRB]

1 hour ago, Sinbadssailors said:

 

 

 Last week 31 children were admitted to a hospital. Not this hospital--- In the entire country.

 

How many could this one hospital have, to justify this kind of "hospitalizations are up" fear mongering?

Please excuse my interruption in the discussion; but I couldn’t find where it says what those 31 children admitted to hospital(s) last week were admitted with. Can someone point me to the posting that identifies that information?

[MrMarc]

9 minutes ago, songbird1329 said:

That’s not an issue raised in the suit just yet, but I can see it being argued eventually 

But doesn't the original suit cite the economic impact as a harm?  I certainly would bring it up, as it seems to totally undercut that issue.

[MrMarc]

Just now, LeeRB said:

Please excuse my interruption in the discussion; but I couldn’t find where it says what those 31 children admitted to hospital(s) last week were admitted with. Can someone point me to the posting that identifies that information?

 

It is from a tweet talking about COVID, so yes, those are real numbers.