Italy bans cruise ships over 25kGT and 180 M long in Venice canal

[Vineyard View]

Today Italy banned cruise ships over 25k GT and in excess of 180M from docking at St Marks Square effective August 1st. This in effect will ban Viking and almost all competitive lines (Oceania, Azamara, Regent, Crystal, etc). Their plan is to dock ships on the mainland at the industrial port. I previously read that the goal was to stop all the mega ships. I understand and applaud the need to preserve this beautiful UNESCO port but I am surprised that the bar on size is this low.

It’s concerning the logistics this will involve in the movement of passengers as well as the facilities to handle them so quickly when virtually nothing has been done at this time. 

[les37b]

Crikey, on Silversea, even the tiny 398 pax Silver Shadow and Silver Whisper gets caught out at 28,000, though the tiny Silver Cloud and Wind will still be OK.

 

Luckily I've done the canal cruise several times. I love Venice, but I'd no longer make it part of any cruise plans in future. I have to agree, the mega ships are not a pretty site as the sail towering above everything.

 

 

 

 

[Poulsbo Cruisers]

We have a cruise scheduled on the Viking Sky at the end of September. It includes three days and two nights in Venice. I wonder what will happen with this cruise. 

[Jim Avery]

As much as we love Venice I can see the locals point.  We lived many years in a tourist beach town in Florida and grew extremely tired of tourists ruining the ambience through sheer numbers.  Our last visit to Venice was wall to wall people everywhere.  We might as well have been in the Mall of America at Christmas. So many interesting places have been overrun with tourists.  And yes, I realize I am part of the problem......  Just saying I understand the Venetians...

[Cienfuegos]

The CNN report was a little more nuanced, but raises other questions.

 

Large ships pass, but don't currently dock at St Mark's Square. They dock at the Tronchero,  at the end of the people mover.

 

CNN also says that extensive work is required to make five docking locations available at Marghera. Although it has been designated as the replacement, it is not ready. Major construction projects in Italy have not always moved with alacrity, so it will be interesting to see how Viking, Cunard, Holland American, etc respond to this challenge.

 

The Austro-Hungarian navy had facilities at Trieste and Koper / Fiume in the days of empires. I wonder if they are suitable for interim use?

[Heidi13]

1 hour ago, Jim Avery said:

As much as we love Venice I can see the locals point.  We lived many years in a tourist beach town in Florida and grew extremely tired of tourists ruining the ambience through sheer numbers.  Our last visit to Venice was wall to wall people everywhere.  We might as well have been in the Mall of America at Christmas. So many interesting places have been overrun with tourists.  And yes, I realize I am part of the problem......  Just saying I understand the Venetians...

 

So true Jim. I recall our 2015 WC, when we stopped in Venice for 2 days, OMG it was a sea of humanity everywhere. Reminded me of the days going to football matches with > 130,000 attending.

 

Compared to our visits in the mid 70's, when I was in Venice every almost every 2 weeks, it was totally laid back and you could actually see things.

 

Must admit, I am also surprised how low they set the bar - 25,000 GT and 590 feet LOA. The old Island/Pacific/Sun Princess (Love Boats) all met this standard, but few modern cruise ships meet both qualifiers.

[Heidi13]

7 minutes ago, Cienfuegos said:

The CNN report was a little more nuanced, but raises other questions.

 

Large ships pass, but don't currently dock at St Mark's Square. They dock at the Tronchero,  at the end of the people mover.

 

CNN also says that extensive work is required to make five docking locations available at Marghera. Although it has been designated as the replacement, it is not ready. Major construction projects in Italy have not always moved with alacrity, so it will be interesting to see how Viking, Cunard, Holland American, etc respond to this challenge.

 

The Austro-Hungarian navy had facilities at Trieste and Koper / Fiume in the days of empires. I wonder if they are suitable for interim use?

 

Affirmative, Trieste does have a significant port infrastructure, but is over 100 miles to Venice. They had a number of cruise ships laid up for many months.

[auldlassie]

Italy has banned the ships whose size is above the limits mentioned from sailing up the canal between Venice and Guidecca. I assume they will just sail around the outer side of Guidecca to the outlying Venice dockyard until the new mainland dock is completed.

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, auldlassie said:

Italy has banned the ships whose size is above the limits mentioned from sailing up the canal between Venice and Guidecca. I assume they will just sail around the outer side of Guidecca to the outlying Venice dockyard until the new mainland dock is completed.

At the moment, there is no shipping channel "around the outer side of Giudecca".  One has been proposed, but it would require dredging the salt marshes, which is what they are trying to protect.  Also, the passage of ships along this route would stir up the marsh bottoms, further destroying the marshes.  The alternate route to get to the Venice cruise port would be to take the Malamocco route from south of Lido to Marghera, and then use the Vittorio Emanuele canal back to Venice.  But this canal is no longer used, and would require dredging as well.

[lackcreativity]

We finally have two cruises booked for 2022 that we were pretty sure would be far enough in the future to avoid the covid cancellations/restrictions. One is is April, 2022 and it ends in Venice. The other is in October, 2022, and it begins in Venice. Both were to include overnights. Sigh. 

 

I realize that the problem is much more significant than my personal convenience, and needs to be addressed.  I have been lucky enough to visit Venice by land three times, and it is one of my very favorite cities.  However, the immediacy of this decision with no alternate plans in place does make me feel sympathy for the cruise lines, who are just beginning to see some light at the end of the covid tunnel.  Sadly, as the old saying goes, sometimes that light is just the oncoming train.

[Heidi13]

4 hours ago, auldlassie said:

Italy has banned the ships whose size is above the limits mentioned from sailing up the canal between Venice and Guidecca. I assume they will just sail around the outer side of Guidecca to the outlying Venice dockyard until the new mainland dock is completed.

 

Unfortunately, I don't believe they have a navigable channel into the cruise terminal, the inland channels are to Marghera port & shipyards. Would require some extensive dredging.

[Jim Avery]

4 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Unfortunately, I don't believe they have a navigable channel into the cruise terminal, the inland channels are to Marghera port & shipyards. Would require some extensive dredging.

And dredging permits are so easy to get....  You understand but most folks don't get the picture of what a large displacement ship does in shallow water.  Massive amounts of water are moved creating undermining of lots of ancient structures, many of which are built on pilings from God knows when.

[Vineyard View]

According to the further announcement I read via AFAR from Italy’s government, they have approved creating at least four temporary docking sights near the industrial port of Marghera, located in the Northwestern Adriatic Sea. They further stated that their new regulations would allow ships of approximately 200 pax and no more to traverse the canal and St Marks Square.

While I sincerely appreciate the environmental concerns, and applaud the efforts to preserve as much as possible, this totally rocks the not only the cruise industry, but will greatly impact businesses in Venice. I honestly thought that there would be a more flexible bar when these anticipated changes came down.  
I would appreciate thoughts around how it would work for passengers over the next year+ To be docking in Marghera. My initial thought is to forego any Venice based cruises for a while, but I am not at all familiar with the logistics of this plan. 

[chengkp75]

5 hours ago, Vineyard View said:

but will greatly impact businesses in Venice.

The cruise industry only accounts for 3% of Venice's GDP, so the cruise ship ban will not "greatly impact" their businesses.   

[Vineyard View]

5 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

The cruise industry only accounts for 3% of Venice's GDP, so the cruise ship ban will not "greatly impact" their businesses.   

I did not know this. I read an article that it was of significant concern to the various businesses and loss it would incur, so thought it was an accurate thought. 
 

[chengkp75]

26 minutes ago, Vineyard View said:

I did not know this. I read an article that it was of significant concern to the various businesses and loss it would incur, so thought it was an accurate thought. 
 

Surprisingly, I found a WTTC figure that says Venice's tourism, in total, only accounts for 11% of it's GDP, so while a reduction of about 1/4 of that number from lost cruise revenue would hit some businesses hard, the city as a whole (which includes areas on the mainland) has enough infrastructure to weather this, including the fact that the new, proposed cruise terminal in Marghera is still within the city of Venice.  So, some shops on the island of Venice may suffer, the city itself will not lose the business, and even that is conjecture, given that there is a bridge to the island that can bring the cruise passengers.

Edited July 15, 2021 by chengkp75

[Vineyard View]

I have learned over the years that you are one of the true experts on this board so I trust your posts. 

I guess I was an anomaly ‘cause we dumped a whole lot of USD when we were in Venice!  HaHa! 
 

I just hope that it is easy to get from your hotel to the new port, and vice versa. I hope it’s easy to get from Venice proper to the ships as well. That has me concerned. If water taxis are readily available it should help a lot. 

[Twitchly]

10 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Surprisingly, I found a WTTC figure that says Venice's tourism, in total, only accounts for 11% of it's GDP, so while a reduction of about 1/4 of that number from lost cruise revenue would hit some businesses hard, the city as a whole (which includes areas on the mainland) has enough infrastructure to weather this, including the fact that the new, proposed cruise terminal in Marghera is still within the city of Venice.  So, some shops on the island of Venice may suffer, the city itself will not lose the business, and even that is conjecture, given that there is a bridge to the island that can bring the cruise passengers.

That is very surprising. I wonder where their other 89% of GDP comes from if not tourism? 

[Heidi13]

37 minutes ago, Twitchly said:

That is very surprising. I wonder where their other 89% of GDP comes from if not tourism? 

 

I'm also surprised, as I always thought tourism accounted for > 11%. For a fair chunk of the rest, my guess is the Marghera port operation, cruise ship building, glass blowing and airport operation.

[chengkp75]

Heavy industry dominates the Venice economy, in addition to the Marghera cargo operations, it is the largest oil terminal in Italy, has a large chemical industry, has the world's first large scale bio-refinery,  power plants, including the world's first commercial sized hydrogen powered power plant, and as you say, shipbuilding.  Large and small manufacturing is also a major contributor to the economy.  Only about 1/4 of Venice's population actually live and work on the islands at the city's center.

[Twitchly]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Heavy industry dominates the Venice economy, in addition to the Marghera cargo operations, it is the largest oil terminal in Italy, has a large chemical industry, has the world's first large scale bio-refinery,  power plants, including the world's first commercial sized hydrogen powered power plant, and as you say, shipbuilding.  Large and small manufacturing is also a major contributor to the economy.  Only about 1/4 of Venice's population actually live and work on the islands at the city's center.

Ah, makes sense if we’re talking about Metropolitan Venice, which extends inland quite a bit.  Thanks for prompting me to brush up on my Italian geography. 

[Vineyard View]

4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Heavy industry dominates the Venice economy, in addition to the Marghera cargo operations, it is the largest oil terminal in Italy, has a large chemical industry, has the world's first large scale bio-refinery,  power plants, including the world's first commercial sized hydrogen powered power plant, and as you say, shipbuilding.  Large and small manufacturing is also a major contributor to the economy.  Only about 1/4 of Venice's population actually live and work on the islands at the city's center.

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing. 

With all that, it sure doesn’t make me envision a very nice area/place to dock. Have you been to Marghera and could possibly provide us with some expectations on what you see this looking like for cruise lines?

[chengkp75]

Sorry, never been there.  Not sure it would be much different from ports in Italy like Genoa or Palermo.  There will be industrial areas, but also shopping districts and residential areas.

[auldlassie]

Thank you to Chengkp75 and Jim Avery for explaining lack of channel to sail around.  I note that Marghera port area is where the road and rail link into Venice comes from and that it lies geographically closer to Venice than the airport. Would it therefore be possible to use road, rail or even possibly watertaxi into Venice from Marghera port?  I would expect it can be managed. I know Marghera port is not pretty, but then neither is Venice airport, nor many of the other Mediterranean ports ships sail into, but that doesn't really deter tourists necessarily. Where there is a will there is a way and I doubt both the cruise tourists and Venice will want to lose the ability to visit. If we can dock at Civitavecchia for Rome and Livorno for Florence and Pisa, we can manage somewhere a bit more distant for Venice if it helps preserve this wonderful city, surely? 

[chengkp75]

Yes, I suspect that there will be bus service from the Marghera port to Venice island.  Water taxi is also a possibility, but from the airport (about the same distance to the Venice cruise terminal as Marghera), is about 100 euro.