What to do if a country does not accept your paper vaccine record

[sfvoyage]

5 minutes ago, SLSD said:

 

I did not post this as a speculative thread, but just as a heads up about what might come next.  I am the kind of person who  does not like to be caught flat footed...

 

On 8/17/2021 at 7:42 AM, SLSD said:

Perhaps this is a measure by Turks and Caicos to prevent forged vaccine records.  Perhaps they have seen them in Turks and Caicos and are taking this measure.  I would not be at all surprised if other countries follow suit.  

 

Sorry, but I find the above (especially the last sentence about other countries following suite) speculative.

[RetiredandTravel]

Turks and Caicos changed the proof of vaccination policy.  I still think its a good idea to have stronger proof of vaccination.

 

"Update 19 August 2021: The Government has announced that paper vaccination records will be accepted (along with additional vaccine types). Read below for details."

 

https://www.visittci.com/travel-info/turks-and-caicos-coronavirus-covid-19

[RetiredandTravel]

If you've never been to Turks & Caicos go, its beautiful.

[SLSD]

16 minutes ago, sfvoyage said:

 

 

Sorry, but I find the above (especially the last sentence about other countries following suite) speculative.

I am not going to argue with you.  This is just information for those of us with only a little slip of paper documenting our vaccine.  You are free to carry on while some of the rest of us may endeavor to have our vaccine record placed into our permanent medical record.  Your choice. Our choice.  No issue there.  

[sfvoyage]

1 hour ago, SLSD said:

I am not going to argue with you.  This is just information for those of us with only a little slip of paper documenting our vaccine.  You are free to carry on while some of the rest of us may endeavor to have our vaccine record placed into our permanent medical record.  Your choice. Our choice.  No issue there.  

 

No issue, but please don't speculate on my choice.  I choose not to worry prematurely when everything is in flux, and nobody knows anything.  And apparently, Turks & Caicos has dropped its requirement of an electronic vaccination record.

 

Your earlier statement about other countries following suit, unless it is based on privileged insider government knowledge, is the very definition of speculation.  Even if the statement proves true in a day, a month, a year (or never), for now it is purely your speculation.  And that is not an argument, that is based on fact and logic.

 

Of course, we're all free to speculate all we want.

[SLSD]

15 minutes ago, sfvoyage said:

 

No issue, but please don't speculate on my choice.  I choose not to worry prematurely when everything is in flux, and nobody knows anything.  And apparently, Turks & Caicos has dropped its requirement of an electronic vaccination record.

 

Your earlier statement about other countries following suit, unless it is based on privileged insider government knowledge, is the very definition of speculation.  Even if the statement proves true in a day, a month, a year (or never), for now it is purely your speculation.  And that is not an argument, that is based on fact and logic.

 

Of course, we're all free to speculate all we want.

And you are free to ignore this thread if it doesn't contain anything that concerns you.  Your choices are your own.  And that is as it should be.  Some of us prefer to look at possibilities and be prepared.  Others do not worry about possibilities.  Different personalities, different concerns.  

[sfvoyage]

3 minutes ago, SLSD said:

And you are free to ignore this thread if it doesn't contain anything that concerns you.  Your choices are your own.  And that is as it should be.  Some of us prefer to look at possibilities and be prepared.  Others do not worry about possibilities.  Different personalities, different concerns.  

Yes, of course, that goes without saying.

 

(And for the record, I am very prepared, thank you very much. 😉)

[cruiseej]

2 hours ago, SLSD said:

Some of us prefer to look at possibilities and be prepared.

 

I'd normally be in that camp. But n this case, I am not putting any effort into trying to get my vaccinations into some form of digital medical record because I haven no clue what will be required or useful in the future. My wife and I were vaccinated at a traveling FEMA-run vaccination site, in the state where she works but not where we live, and we've received multiple phone calls from that state asking if we need to schedule our second shots long after we received them (and they should have known that we received them if they were documented properly). So I suspect there isn't a complete record of our shots, digitally, in the state where we got them. And because of that, I'm sure there's no such record transferred to our home state. My doctor's health system has a copy of my paper Covid shot record which I uploaded mainly so they stopped bugging me to get vaccinated, but no proof of vaccination other than my scan of the card. Even if I wanted to do it, I'm not sure where I'd turn to get a digital record -- the state where we got our shots? our home state? our doctors' health systems? And whose system will other countries accept or not accept in the future?

 

I've concluded that although I could pursue this from multiple angles, for the moment I'll do nothing -- because it's not clear any additional documentation will help with anything. Maybe once we get booster shots, that will be through my doctor and they'll have a digital record. Maybe in order to receive a booster, I'll have to get records from some state office or another to reprove my original shots. Or maybe at that time they will update my digital medical records to reflect the two original plus one booster shot. Who knows?

 

So until this affects our travel plans, or is needed for some other purpose, or there's a national or international standard, I'll rely on my little cardboard card and not invest additional efforts which may or may not matter. 🙂

[klkaylor78]

Interesting thread as we are on our way to Ecuador this pm and plan to enter with our covid vaccination record rather than a neg PCR test. As I am a belt and suspenders type of person I downloaded the QR code from the CA site - yep I was there- thens saved to dropbox. Saddly it did not off a way to put it in my apple wallet.  

One interesting part of covid vaccination is the abandonment of the yellow card that has been used for years for all other vaccination. For those countries with yellow fever vaccination requirements this yellow booklet has been accepted for years. So why not covid vaccine? 

 I also had to prove rabies vaccination for a mission in Southeast Asia- again the yellow card/book was accepted.

 We had our yellow card updated with our covid vaccine just like the rest of our vaccine- flu, hep A, rabies, yellow fever, etc.  If covid turns into a chronic endemic viral disease - like the flu- then we will be taking "booster" for the near future and this rather than the white CDC card makes more sense.

[Hlitner]

On 8/22/2021 at 5:23 PM, SLSD said:

I am not going to argue with you.  This is just information for those of us with only a little slip of paper documenting our vaccine.  You are free to carry on while some of the rest of us may endeavor to have our vaccine record placed into our permanent medical record.  Your choice. Our choice.  No issue there.  

Folks are free to speculate and model various ideas.  But some of us live in the real world and have been traveling with real solutions.  The current reality is that for US residents the CDC Vaccination Card is the gold standard to enter multiple countries (and satisfy airlines) that require proof of vaccination.  Getting one's vaccine record into medical records is a fine idea (we have done it) but has no relevance for entry into most countries.  As an example, when we flew to Greece at the end of July the airline (TurkishAirlines) here in the USA asked to see our vaccination card at check-in.  When we arrived in Athens we quickly had to pass by an official who asked to see our vaccination card (he did a quick comparison to our Passport names).  If we had shown him some kind of medical record document it is doubtful he would have had a clue since medical records come in many formats.   A decent national vaccine data base would be helpful but it simply does not exist.  And yes, vaccine cards can be forged just like medical records can be hacked, created, have false information, etc.

 

There is no perfect solution to the problem (at least for now) so the vaccine cards will continue to be the norm with a few States having documents that may or may not also be accepted.  In a few week we will be flying to Barbados and they also accept the CDC Vaccine Card with no issues.  They also will accept other documentation issued "by a hospital or medical centre."  Nothing in their rules allows for the acceptance of medical records that would be maintained by a physician's office (many folks still have their records maintained in this manner).

 

Hank

[markham]

It goes without saying that an app bearing vaccination records with a recent QR code is superior for many reason to some handwritten card doled out by US pharmacies etc. This is the future and it is just a matter of time before nations’ lawmakers and immigration authorities prepare the way for this to be required. There are plenty of models already out there such as that of the UK and NY state, as mentioned above.

 

Happy and healthy sailing!

[RetiredandTravel]

2 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Folks are free to speculate and model various ideas.  But some of us live in the real world and have been traveling with real solutions.  The current reality is that for US residents the CDC Vaccination Card is the gold standard to enter multiple countries (and satisfy airlines) that require proof of vaccination.  Getting one's vaccine record into medical records is a fine idea (we have done it) but has no relevance for entry into most countries.  As an example, when we flew to Greece at the end of July the airline (TurkishAirlines) here in the USA asked to see our vaccination card at check-in.  When we arrived in Athens we quickly had to pass by an official who asked to see our vaccination card (he did a quick comparison to our Passport names).  If we had shown him some kind of medical record document it is doubtful he would have had a clue since medical records come in many formats.   A decent national vaccine data base would be helpful but it simply does not exist.  And yes, vaccine cards can be forged just like medical records can be hacked, created, have false information, etc.

 

There is no perfect solution to the problem (at least for now) so the vaccine cards will continue to be the norm with a few States having documents that may or may not also be accepted.  In a few week we will be flying to Barbados and they also accept the CDC Vaccine Card with no issues.  They also will accept other documentation issued "by a hospital or medical centre."  Nothing in their rules allows for the acceptance of medical records that would be maintained by a physician's office (many folks still have their records maintained in this manner).

 

Hank

 

OK "Real World" Hank

 

How about this scenario

 

You are arriving at Immigrations at the first city of your 30 day $60,000 cruise.

 

Unbeknownst to you last night the Immigration officers girlfriend just left him for his best friend and he's not in good spirits. 😡

 

You walk up and proudly show him your CDC vaccination card which closely resembles the report cards I got in kindergarten in the 60's.  He says I think its a fake (big penalties for forged cards in this country) , calls his uncle who runs immigration and his uncle says call the police 👮‍♂️.  It takes 3 days for you to sort it out.  Unfortunately your cruise initially made two stops and then had 5 days at sea so you have to meet them a week into the cruise. ☹️

 

I'm next on line.

 

When the immigration officer  tells me he also thinks my CDC card is a fake I quickly show him the record of my vaccination from my medical provider ( a renowned hospital) and from the major drug store chain.  It took me 10 minutes to print off and pack the additional documentation.  The immigration officer then says ok go ahead and I tell him I'm sorry about his girlfriend.

 

In 3 hours I'm drinking Champagne and eating a burger at the pool bar. 🥳

 

You know what mama always said "better to be safe....."

 

 

[Hlitner]

37 minutes ago, RetiredandTravel said:

 

OK "Real World" Hank

 

How about this scenario

 

You are arriving at Immigrations at the first city of your 30 day $60,000 cruise.

 

Unbeknownst to you last night the Immigration officers girlfriend just left him for his best friend and he's not in good spirits. 😡

 

You walk up and proudly show him your CDC vaccination card which closely resembles the report cards I got in kindergarten in the 60's.  He says I think its a fake (big penalties for forged cards in this country) , calls his uncle who runs immigration and his uncle says call the police 👮‍♂️.  It takes 3 days for you to sort it out.  Unfortunately your cruise initially made two stops and then had 5 days at sea so you have to meet them a week into the cruise. ☹️

 

I'm next on line.

 

When the immigration officer  tells me he also thinks my CDC card is a fake I quickly show him the record of my vaccination from my medical provider ( a renowned hospital) and from the major drug store chain.  It took me 10 minutes to print off and pack the additional documentation.  The immigration officer then says ok go ahead and I tell him I'm sorry about his girlfriend.

 

In 3 hours I'm drinking Champagne and eating a burger at the pool bar. 🥳

 

You know what mama always said "better to be safe....."

 

 

One can contrive all kinds of scenarios but what I posted is what we experienced in the last 3 weeks!  And by the way, keep in mind that I was specifically talking about a couple of countries (Greece and Turkey) where English is not the primary language.  The folks that are interacting with travelers have varying capability in dealing with the English language just like a US Official might have some problems reading a Greek document.   I did actually take along our Medicare Advantage Plan EOBs which clearly indicated payment of the vaccine administration fees (paid to Rite Aid) that matched-up with the dates on our vaccination cards.  However, that was just the "Plan B" part of my thinking with the knowledge that it may have been difficult explaining what these documents mean to folks from other countries.  

 

But getting back to my post it was dealing in reality....what is actually happening...and what currently works.  Folks can continue to speculate all they please, but those of us who are actually traveling need to deal with the actual procedures and requirements as they exist....not as we might wish they existed.   We have two more major international trips scheduled before the end of the year and we will continue to deal with what is required......not what some folks think should be required.

 

Hank

[RetiredandTravel]

Oh good so you agree that one should take additional documentation in addition to the CDC card.

 

It was a joke dude, relax.

 

 

[klkaylor78]

It is just a tough time to travel. What tests are accepted. What documentation is accepted. What to do when the rules change pre or mid trip-Maldives changed their rules four times in the 11 days we were there. Now Galapagos has added a neg PCR in addition to vaccination. It starts 1 Sep we fly in on 29 Aug ….do we get a pcr just in case someone breaks up with their girl friend and I forces the rule two days early.  I just prepare have my documentation in multiple forms/locations and press on. 

[Hlitner]

2 hours ago, RetiredandTravel said:

Oh good so you agree that one should take additional documentation in addition to the CDC card.

 

It was a joke dude, relax.

 

 

I have been a very independent traveler for over 50 years.   You can find I have always been consistent that independent travelers should always know their options and have a "Plan B" and even a "Plan C" because there are times when things do not go exactly as planned.  So yes, I do agree that there is no harm in having any additional documentation for vaccines, testing, etc.  That being said, if you are going to travel in the now you need to have what is required by the places you go.  Other documentation is a good thing, but so far has not been necessary (to the best of our knowledge).   I will also tell you that the key to easy travel is having what you need and not generally offering anything else because you think it is a good idea.  So when a government asks for proof of vaccination they are simply asking to see the original of your CDC Vaccination Card (if you are from the USA).   That is what they expect, it is what they want, and providing anything else is just a recipe for complications.   Does that mean that all this will not change tomorrow?  Or course not!  But a savvy traveler deals in the here and now (a key part of independent travel).  

 

As to being a joke perhaps it is to you but there are folks who have upcoming trips (with doubts) that look to these boards for some reinforcement and advice from those that have actually been in travel and cruise mode.  For now, a US traveler needs to think in terms of meeting the COVID test requirements of each and every country they visit,  having the required documentation of their cruise line, meeting any requirements of their airline, and having the required proof of vaccination which, for the moment, is generally the CDC Vaccination Card.   

 

One other thing.  Anyone who travels in this environment without adequate medical and evacuation insurance is out of their mind!  

 

Hank

[klkaylor78]

Hlitner -very good points but sadly a minimalist approach would have led to a retest in Aruba. Per Aruba web page Abbott ID now was an accept test in both sep 20 and Apr 21. We had a paper copy of an email result that work perfectly in sep. in April with no change to the Aruba web site they now wanted a sticker o the test result printout. That is impossible with an email result. The fact that we kept and downloaded the pdf attached to the results email was the only thing that kept us from quarantining and being retested.  
while I agree that at the start give them exactly what they request but having other forms to validate your original documentation may be the difference between success and failure. Agents can and will individually interpret the rules producing a result that can and will sadly be different day to day.

[markham]

klkaylor78,

 

Just to say that I very much appreciate your post and the effort it took to write it! That information is what everyone is seeking in these trying times: what to prepare for as regulations and practice evolve so one can have a successful cruise experience. This is thoughtful, value-added stuff!

 

Happy and healthy sailing!

Edited August 27, 2021 by markham

[Hlitner]

Just an added note.  This morning I received an e-mail from Seabourn Cruises which is part of the CCL family of cruise lines (HAL, Princess, etc) about an upcoming October cruise.  The e-mail makes it clear that we must have an "original" vaccination certificate and that any kind of copy is not acceptable.  I know that lots of us have made copies and also put pictures onto our phones (a great idea) but apparently none of this is acceptable to the cruise line.  Those CDC Vaccination Cards have become very valuable documents and we treat ours in a similar manner as our Passports.

 

Hank

[markham]

I hope it won’t be long before we get some common sense, stability and security around these US vaccination cards. They are laughably insecure, so to speak, and I expect that in time an app with QR code will set the standard for everyone. Who wants to join a cruise with someone - even one joker - who has forged a card and is not vaccinated? What country wants to admit a cruise ship complement which is not compliant with compliance?

 

When we flew from the UK to Greece for the Ovation “inaugural” of 3 July, I was very pleased that the authorities recognized our NHS app with QR code lasting a month and which could be extended as time passed and the underlying item, our vaccinations, were current.

 

President Biden (and other world leaders) would do well to coordinate the data of vaccinations there, maybe by state, and create such an app. I have learned that a few states such as NY and Maryland have already done so. It would be good for all of us.

 

Happy and healthy sailing!

 

[cruiseej]

@markham Everything you say makes perfect sense. But a national database of vaccination data is just not likely to happen in the US because of opposition for a variety of reasons (some with a bit of logic, some which are just irrational). 

[RetiredandTravel]

17 hours ago, Hlitner said:

 

One other thing.  Anyone who travels in this environment without adequate medical and evacuation insurance is out of their mind!  

 

 

Agreed.

 

Its my impression that its important to have quality travel insurance AND evacuation insurance. We are going to Caribbean (non-cruise) over the winter,.  The hotel will (for a fee) two days before we leave give us the Covid test necessary to re enter the US.  If one of us tests positive but are asymptomatic we will be quarantined to our room for 10-14 days.  All hotels on the island aren't booking full capacity  so they can accommodate people if they need to quarantine.  Its my understanding that travel insurance (high quality) won't pay for the evacuation because it isn't a medical emergency so we would be forced to stay in the room for 10-14 days.  The cost of the resort is near the cost of a Seabourn cruise on a per day basis and travel insurance will only pay a very small fraction.  This would set us back a good deal of money to be quarantined in the room.

 

Considering this in addition to our travel insurance we will buy sole Covid evacuation insurance that will take you home if you just test positive for Covid (asymptomatic or otherwise).   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hlitner]

27 minutes ago, RetiredandTravel said:

 

Agreed.

 

Its my impression that its important to have quality travel insurance AND evacuation insurance. We are going to Caribbean (non-cruise) over the winter,.  The hotel will (for a fee) two days before we leave give us the Covid test necessary to re enter the US.  If one of us tests positive but are asymptomatic we will be quarantined to our room for 10-14 days.  All hotels on the island aren't booking full capacity  so they can accommodate people if they need to quarantine.  Its my understanding that travel insurance (high quality) won't pay for the evacuation because it isn't a medical emergency so we would be forced to stay in the room for 10-14 days.  The cost of the resort is near the cost of a Seabourn cruise on a per day basis and travel insurance will only pay a very small fraction.  This would set us back a good deal of money to be quarantined in the room.

 

Considering this in addition to our travel insurance we will buy sole Covid evacuation insurance that will take you home if you just test positive for Covid (asymptomatic or otherwise).   

 

 

 

You raise a very interesting issue (to me) regarding "Covid evacuation insurance."  I know of one relatively new company, Covac Global, that does sell such a policy but have no personal knowledge about this company and whether they can make good on their promises.  It appears that a simple 15 day COVID evacuation policy costs over $800 which might price many folks out of the market.   An annual COVID evacuation policy costs over $2900!  Their policy generates many questions for me.  I did notice that they require somebody to not only test positive (with a PCR test) but they must also have at least one symptom.  They also seem to exclude anyone who travels on a cruise ship with more then 25 cabins which would rule out nearly all cruise ships.  So consider a person that tests positive and is asymptomatic (this is pretty common among vaccinated folks).  They would still be stuck in place and apparently COVAC could refuse to transport them home.  

 

This is certainly a good topic for the CC Travel Insurance blog.   Personally I have little interest since DW and I, if we had or would test positive on a trip, would simply quarantine in place until such time as we could return home.  But we do have the advantage of being retired so would generally not be up against the time issues faced by many folks.  

 

Hank

 

 

[RetiredandTravel]

We have no interest in sitting in our room in the Caribbean for 10-14 days at a cost of $20,000-25000.  

 

What happens on Seabourn if the pre-departure test comes back positive and you are asymptomatic?

[Hlitner]

12 minutes ago, RetiredandTravel said:

We have no interest in sitting in our room in the Caribbean for 10-14 days at a cost of $20,000-25000.  

 

What happens on Seabourn if the pre-departure test comes back positive and you are asymptomatic?

What happens is that you do not get to board the ship.  In fact, this did happen on Aug 7 when 3 booked passengers tested positive in the embarkation tent and were refused boarding.  We do not have any first hand information on what happened to those 3 although we would assume they were quarantines in an approved hotel until such time as they were cleared to fly or get on the cruise.  We are not aware of any cruise line that would knowingly board a passenger who tested positive at pre embarkation testing.

 

Hank