Millennium in Key West today (Feb 4)

[RichYak]

Nice view of Millennium on the harbor cam. Good to see as I didn't think any Celebrity ships would call there right now.

 

https://www.keywestharborwebcam.com/

[Jeremiah1212]

I haven't kept up with all the ruckus but apparently if they use a specific pier (Pier B?) it's okay for now. I'm still somewhat surprised Celebrity proceeded with visiting KW. 

[cameronp12]

Curious to see how long they will keep going. I know from looking at other forums, there is a protest planned in Mallory Square tomorrow. I can't imagine that is good press for Celebrity/RCI.

[STLCRUISIN]

Maybe they are allowed to dock because of the number of people onboard but not sure since I thought docking in KW was based on tonnage.

Where they are docked today is a privately owned dock (Pier B) whereas the dock right at Mallory Square is owned by the city and the other dock further away is the Navy's Outer Mole Pier. 

[NaplesKnitter]

We are on the Millennium now- We had a wonderful time walking around Key West today!  Everyone was very nice and the town looked great!  There were signs everywhere saying Welcome Cruise Ship Passengers!  

[CruisinCrow]

1 hour ago, STLCRUISIN said:

Maybe they are allowed to dock because of the number of people onboard but not sure since I thought docking in KW was based on tonnage.

Where they are docked today is a privately owned dock (Pier B) whereas the dock right at Mallory Square is owned by the city and the other dock further away is the Navy's Outer Mole Pier. 

 

I think it's based on the number of passengers but tonnage would make more sense.  It seems like at least part of the reason behind the protests is the environmental damage the large ships cause.

[Jeremiah1212]

7 minutes ago, CruisinCrow said:

 

I think it's based on the number of passengers but tonnage would make more sense.  It seems like at least part of the reason behind the protests is the environmental damage the large ships cause.

 

The initial rule in place was no more than 1,500 total cruise passengers total per day with individual ships having no more than 1,300 passengers. With the 1,300 passenger rule in place it effectively ruled out any larger ship from docking there without addressing tonnage. This left something like 6% of the scheduled ship traffic able to dock. 

[sbcs5390]

Hoping to go there on March 18 on Millennium! Looks like a storm is coming in. 

[smbt1]

2 hours ago, STLCRUISIN said:

Maybe they are allowed to dock because of the number of people onboard but not sure since I thought docking in KW was based on tonnage.

Where they are docked today is a privately owned dock (Pier B) whereas the dock right at Mallory Square is owned by the city and the other dock further away is the Navy's Outer Mole Pier. 

There are restrictions on both the size of the ship by passenger size, not tonnage, and the max number of passengers each day even from multiple small ships.

 

Those restrictions are only enforced on city owned piers, the city currently has no mechanism to enforce on the privately owned pier B.

Edited February 4, 2022 by smbt1

[smbt1]

1 hour ago, NaplesKnitter said:

We are on the Millennium now- We had a wonderful time walking around Key West today!  Everyone was very nice and the town looked great!  There were signs everywhere saying Welcome Cruise Ship Passengers!  

I would expect that those signs are mostly from businesses that are cruise shipped focused.

[RedIguana]

1 hour ago, CruisinCrow said:

I think it's based on the number of passengers but tonnage would make more sense.  It seems like at least part of the reason behind the protests is the environmental damage the large ships cause.

The environmental damage is the excuse, not the reason. They just don't want the people there, although they are willing to make an exception for the generally more well off passengers on the "smaller" ships, since they can't outright ban passenger travel. There is only so much silt to be blown around, once the force threshold is enough to blow up all the existing silt over the limestone, more thruster force can't blow any more silt up. I'm not sure how much of a difference there would be between an allowed 50-60 ton vessel and a 80-90 ton vessel. 

[smbt1]

11 minutes ago, RedIguana said:

The environmental damage is the excuse, not the reason. They just don't want the people there, although they are willing to make an exception for the generally more well off passengers on the "smaller" ships, since they can't outright ban passenger travel. There is only so much silt to be blown around, once the force threshold is enough to blow up all the existing silt over the limestone, more thruster force can't blow any more silt up. I'm not sure how much of a difference there would be between an allowed 50-60 ton vessel and a 80-90 ton vessel. 

It is also the draft of the ships and the corresponding depth of the  props,  larger ships tend to have deeper draft.  For example the Silhouette has a draught of 8.22 meters, even the millennium is 8.4 meters.  Compared to something like the Oceania Marina which is right at  the policy  (1250 passengers) and has a draught of 7.3 meters.

 

The entry into Key West is fairly shallow.  The clarity of the water was very noticeable during the shutdown.  As was the reduction in the amount of silt deposited upon coral near the channel.

 

Venice  also reduced ship size due to the impact of water movement from the larger ships .

Edited February 4, 2022 by smbt1

[PTC DAWG]

2 minutes ago, smbt1 said:

It is also the draft of the ships and the corresponding depth of the  props,  larger ships tend to have deeper draft.  For example the Silhouette has a draught of 8.22 meters, even the millennium is 8.4 meters.  Compared to something like the Oceania Marina which is inside the policy and has a draught of 7.3 meters.

 

The entry into Key West is fairly shallow.  The clarity of the water was very noticeable during the shutdown.  As was the reduction in the amount of silt deposited upon coral near the channel.

Seems that banning all visitors, and any boat traffic at all would make the water even clearer...reduce traffic down from Miami, etc..a win win for the Conch Republic...tourist $$$, who needs it?  

[smbt1]

1 minute ago, PTC DAWG said:

Seems that banning all visitors, and any boat traffic at all would make the water even clearer...reduce traffic down from Miami, etc..a win win for the Conch Republic...tourist $$$, who needs it?  

Cost vs benefits.  Large ships cause more of a problem, bring in large numbers of passengers, but not much revenue.  In 2019 cruise lines contributed 50% of tourists, yet only 20% of revenue,  most of that revenue was focused on a relatively few businesses, mostly aimed at the cruise ship market.  Ones that proliferate in large numbers close to the pier. One that also drove out more unique businesses that tended to have value to locals, as well as over night tourists, instead of being focused on cruise ship traffic.

 

Banning large ships yields some environmental impact, keeps the town from being dramatically over crowded on days with large ships, or even multiple large ships in port, making it more attractive for drive in or fly in tourists, improving activities such as fishing and snorkeling, while giving up a relatively small portion of the total tourism spend in KW.  The limit on cruise ship passengers also makes some of the businesses such as Diamonds international, the T shirt shops, the key lime shops on every corner, a bit less attractive, helping to restore the mix of businesses in the down town area, helping to restore the character that makes KW attractive, instead of becoming another port with little character and the same shops that have taken over many other cruise ship ports.

 

 

[RedIguana]

17 minutes ago, smbt1 said:

It is also the draft of the ships and the corresponding depth of the  props,  larger ships tend to have deeper draft.  For example the Silhouette has a draught of 8.22 meters, even the millennium is 8.4 meters.  Compared to something like the Oceania Marina which is right at  the policy  (1250 passengers) and has a draught of 7.3 meters.

 

The entry into Key West is fairly shallow.  The clarity of the water was very noticeable during the shutdown.  As was the reduction in the amount of silt deposited upon coral near the channel.

 

Venice  also reduced ship size due to the impact of water movement from the larger ships .

If the problem is silting due to the draft when entering and leaving, the channel is overdue to be dredged.  When docking, does the Oceania Marina still up all the available silt, down to bare limestone? It makes no difference if the ship is 30k ton or 100k ton if they both stir up all the silt that has settled.

I would love to see the nutrient studies from during the lockdown. I would suspect the water clarity was from a reduction in the nutrient loads due to a daily population decrease, specifically phosphorus, which tends to be the limiting nutrient on coral reefs.

[piercetc4]

we are supposed to dock there on the millie march 4th! 

[smbt1]

49 minutes ago, RedIguana said:

If the problem is silting due to the draft when entering and leaving, the channel is overdue to be dredged.  When docking, does the Oceania Marina still up all the available silt, down to bare limestone? It makes no difference if the ship is 30k ton or 100k ton if they both stir up all the silt that has settled.

I would love to see the nutrient studies from during the lockdown. I would suspect the water clarity was from a reduction in the nutrient loads due to a daily population decrease, specifically phosphorus, which tends to be the limiting nutrient on coral reefs.

Even if your statement is correct on a per ship basis, the rules would considerable reduce the total number of ships making passage since most of the cruise ships calling are in excess of the restrictions.  Prior to the rules that was as many as 3 cruise ships calling at a time.  Even with port B being privately owned the restrictions on the piers controlled by the city will reduce the total number of ship calls by a significant percentage in the long term.  Looking at the number of cancellations so far with large ships, the total number of calls on KW from start up to now has been in excess of 90%.

 

Even if the major cruise lines decide to ignore local opinion, the elimination of the ability to access 2 of the 3 piers will still result in a reduction of ships by over 50% worst case, with they would be limited to only one ship in port at a time compared to the 3 at some times in previous years.

 

 

 

You might try to contact

 

Henry Briceno

Research Professor

Southeast Environmental Research Center

bricenoh@fiu.edu

 

He has been doing a fair amount of research in the area and comparing the data during the pandemic to the 25 years of data collected by Florida International University.

Edited February 4, 2022 by smbt1

[RedIguana]

Hopefully I'll catch his publication at some point. Personally it was quite distressing to see the changes from the mid 70's to the mid 80's all the way from south florida to key west.

[Bluemoose]

curious what the conditions are like on-board ?  eg;  mask use in hallways and common areas ?  dining, entertainment, pool deck etc ?   thanks

[rmalbers]

I've said it before, a lot of ports are going to have to do something, not just KW,  to limit cruise ship visitors.   Some of these new cruise ships coming online can have 6,000 people on them.  The whole industry is creating change.   I'm not sure what is  going to happen when several of these huge ships are at any port at the same time.

Edited February 4, 2022 by rmalbers

[smbt1]

24 minutes ago, rmalbers said:

I've said it before, a lot of ports are going to have to do something, not just KW,  to limit cruise ship visitors.   Some of these new cruise ships coming online can have 6,000 people on them.  The whole industry is creating change.   I'm not sure what is  going to happen when several of these huge ships are at any port at the same time.

Unfortunately the cruise industry just seems interested in how they can increase the number of passengers that they carry and can cram into the various ports.  As a result they are starting to see pushback in more areas, even some large ports like Barcelona and Amsterdam.

 

Smaller ports that were fantastic stops with unique local stores, that were enjoyable to visit.  Are now stops that might have 4 to 5 ships in town at the same time.  Towns where local, unique stores have been mostly replaced by the same ones that you see in just about every cruise port in the Caribbean and Alaska.

 

I like cruising, but dislike what I see the industry is doing to some ports.

[elliekate]

We are on the Constellation sailing March 28 and were supposed to go to Key West. However, Key West has been replaced with Nassau which we are not very happy about. Is there any hope it could be changed back to Key West in light of Millennium and Constellation going to Key West recently? Our friends are in Key West today and sent a video of Constellation docking there!

[EatonDoolittle]

Just arrived on the Constellation, here are the protesters at Mallory Square. We are at Pier B.

 

They are yelling “no more big ships”. 
I’ve been here many times, wasn’t planning to go ashore anyway. 
 

 

[EatonDoolittle]

A few protesters came onto our dock. Can’t read the signs from my balcony, but I doubt they say “welcome!”.

 

Passengers are going ashore, doesn’t look like they are being hassled.

 

ETA: I stand Corrected…they do say welcome cruise ship passengers. 
Gotta love it, both sides represented 

 

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by EatonDoolittle

[mac_tlc]

The Apex is scheduled to be there tomorrow. I just got off this morning and got a sneak peak of the Day 1 Celebrity Today for 2/5 and the itinerary shows KW tomorrow. 

 

mac_tlc