Tipping now more important than ever

[ldubs]

Just now, Peter Lanky said:

I have not made this up. If you are from the US, is is fair to assume that you will be familiar with the concept of gratuities, be they automatic add-ons or discretionary. For people in other countries who are not used to such practices, how are they going to know that this practice occurs? Not everyone reads the fine print, even more so when they are not looking for something in the first place. The glossy brochures don't exactly make an effort to shout it from the rooftops. My coach tour didn't mention it so why would a cruise be any different?

 

Sorry, but I won't buy that any significant number of folk are unaware of grats on cruise ships.  

 

Yes, just as you are familiar with the customs in your country, I am familiar and comfortable with the customs in mine.  

[ldubs]

2 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

And zero opportunity to give thoughtful, helpful waiters more compensation than lazy,  careless, or discourteous ones.  

 

I support incentive pay systems in general.  It is not a coincidence that those who can't cut the mustard don't like that kind of system.

[Peter Lanky]

1 minute ago, navybankerteacher said:

And zero opportunity to give thoughtful, helpful waiters more compensation than lazy,  careless, or discourteous ones.  

Every profession has it's lazy,  careless, or discourteous staff. In most professions they are sifted out by either by sacking them if they are really bad or just giving them zero career progression. If I encounter a lazy,  careless, or discourteous nurse for example, I can't and wouldn't want to be responsible for determining their pay level, as it's the job of their employer.

[Peter Lanky]

4 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

Sorry, but I won't buy that any significant number of folk are unaware of grats on cruise ships.  

 

Yes, just as you are familiar with the customs in your country, I am familiar and comfortable with the customs in mine.  

That's a contradiction. You are now suggesting that you know the customs in my country as well as I do, by believing that Brits will be fully aware of the gratuities culture. What makes you so sure of this, despite the fact that for the UK at least, I have evidence that many are not?

I have just explained that I was personally taken by surprise on a coach tour despite being well travelled and that I personally know of somebody that has been surprised by auto gratuities on a cruise. I only know about it myself on cruises as I've been contemplating going on one for years.

[ldubs]

24 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

That's a contradiction. You are now suggesting that you know the customs in my country as well as I do, by believing that Brits will be fully aware of the gratuities culture. What makes you so sure of this, despite the fact that for the UK at least, I have evidence that many are not?

I have just explained that I was personally taken by surprise on a coach tour despite being well travelled and that I personally know of somebody that has been surprised by auto gratuities on a cruise. I only know about it myself on cruises as I've been contemplating going on one for years.

 

 

No.  I said I am comfortable with the customs in my country just as you are with the ones in your country.  

 

About grats on cruise ships, it has been around and a standard for a very long time.  It is no contradiction to disbelieve that folks in general are so unaware of the process they are being tricked into purchasing a cruise.   If you were surprised by what has been a standard for more than your lifetime, you are really not that well traveled.  

 

 

[KBs mum]

1 hour ago, Peter Lanky said:

Just to move the conversation on a little, what is the purpose of hotel porters or bell people as you call them in the US? I arrive at a hotel having just carried my luggage with no problem half way around the world, so why on earth do I need somebody to take my luggage to my room and hold out their hand at the end of it? It may be a cute little tradition from the days when the only travellers were the very wealthy who liked to ensure their superiority over the working class, but surely that tradition belongs in a museum.

 

I don't know about these expensive hotels in London as I never go there, but none of the hotels I visit at home do this, because of course it's completely unnecessary. I'm sure there are a few cases where people struggle, but I'm sure the hotels would help without question in these cases.

I've never seen a porter or bellhop outside the US hold their hand out. Hotels that have them provide them as part of their guest services. Salaried employees. No tip needed. 

[KBs mum]

57 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

That approach would result in a decrease in take home pay.   Many restauranteurs indicate menu prices would need to increase at least 30% to keep staff whole.   

 

The thing is, we feel no stress following our tipping custom.   I would not presume to ask a country to change their custom because I am uncomfortable or don't agree with it.    

We are discussing tips on ships with international crews and passengers, and with different registrations, and the pros and cons of tipping in general, using examples we know of from our travels. It's not all about the US, although as the primary example of a tipping culture it has been cited in examples of pro tipping culture. Many cruisers will never visit US territory. 

[KBs mum]

15 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

 

No.  I said 

 

About grats on cruise ships, it has been around and a standard for a very long time.  It is no contradiction to disbelieve that folks in general are so unaware of the process they are being tricked into purchasing a cruise.   If you were surprised by what has been a standard for more than your lifetime, you are really not that well traveled.  

 

 

Not true, it became widespread with the rise of the US based megaships. It is still not usual on ships which don't have a majority of US passengers. 

[ontheweb]

2 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

I think the correct word is 'committed'.

What are you doing to manifest that commitment other than posting numerous times in the thread? Have you bought stock in any cruise company and raised the issue at Board Meetings? Are you trying to organize restaurant workers?  

[LGW59]

7 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Are you really comparing tipping to child slavery, apartheid and child labor?

Remember, PL said this was their "crusade"

[Peter Lanky]

16 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

 

No.  I said I am comfortable with the customs in my country just as you are with the ones in your country.  

 

About grats on cruise ships, it has been around and a standard for a very long time.  It is no contradiction to disbelieve that folks in general are so unaware of the process they are being tricked into purchasing a cruise.   If you were surprised by what has been a standard for more than your lifetime, you are really not that well traveled.  

 

 

So you are suggesting that I am not well travelled purely on the basis that I have not been on a cruise, or on an organised tour prior to 10 years ago? Surely that fact that people will not know about something they are not looking for is reasonable. I have never been skiing, and other than knowing that you fasten a couple of lumps of wood to your feet, I know nothing about the features of a skiing holiday, and why would I? I don't need to know so I have never looked into it. It's the same with cruises.

 

I cannot find any data on how long auto tipping has been in operation, but I suspect that it is relatively modern, when operators realised that it could be used to pretend the holiday was cheaper than it really is. Maybe somebody knows the answer?

[LGW59]

1 minute ago, ontheweb said:

What are you doing to manifest that commitment other than posting numerous times in the thread? Have you bought stock in any cruise company and raised the issue at Board Meetings? Are you trying to organize restaurant workers?  

As a matter of fact I did buy stock, way way back right after the shut-down, at $19+ USD, good investment.  I don't attend board meetings.  No need for me to organize, I am a very good tipper, where I go to eat, they appreciate me.  BTW, besides posting on here and responding to others posts, what are YOU doing!  It is a redundant question, I do not need or want a reply.  Cheers

[KBs mum]

1 hour ago, navybankerteacher said:

And zero opportunity to give thoughtful, helpful waiters more compensation than lazy,  careless, or discourteous ones.  

Complain to the establishment. The bad waiters won't remain waiters for long, if bad service continues the establishment won't be in business for long.

By your argument, as an example, the US would have a far higher standard of customer service than the UK. Not so. The same or worse. 

Edited February 26, 2022 by KBs mum

[Peter Lanky]

5 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

What are you doing to manifest that commitment other than posting numerous times in the thread? Have you bought stock in any cruise company and raised the issue at Board Meetings? Are you trying to organize restaurant workers?  

I don't have any realistic option but to post on discussion forums. Isn't this what discussion forums are for; to discuss? Life's too short to get involved with corporations who are unlikely to listen to any comments I have.

If I can convince one person via a discussion forum to revisit how they view a topic then I have succeeded in my quest. I have changed some of my own views (not many I admit) by online discussion, if my 'opponent' has put forward a reasoned, articulate argument and not tried to insult me along the way.

[Toofarfromthesea]

On 2/25/2022 at 12:53 PM, Peter Lanky said:

Some people just don't have the skills to lift themselves up from minimum wage jobs. This has become more common as people with mental illnesses have been pushed into the real world to fend for themselves. I have met many of these people and they are not lazy or  even bad workers, but just don't have the capacity to move upwards. Many would not even understand the concept of promotion. However, there is a job out there for everyone to match their abilities if only political and social groups would take the trouble to match them to these jobs. They are worth more to society than influencers and pseudo celebrities.

 

In the US people with certain disabilities have had a sub-minimum wage available which allows them to hold a job even though their abilities could never provide value for money at the regular minimum wage.  Sadly that is currently being attacked by one political wing as being inequitable and exploitive.  If they are successful in eliminating these sub-minimum wages those disabled people will lose their jobs.

[Peter Lanky]

9 minutes ago, LGW59 said:

As a matter of fact I did buy stock, way way back right after the shut-down, at $19+ USD, good investment.  I don't attend board meetings.  No need for me to organize, I am a very good tipper, where I go to eat, they appreciate me.  BTW, besides posting on here and responding to others posts, what are YOU doing!  It is a redundant question, I do not need or want a reply.  Cheers

Isn't 'ontheweb' on your side? A case of friendly fire I fear. 🤣

[Peter Lanky]

3 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

In the US people with certain disabilities have had a sub-minimum wage available which allows them to hold a job even though their abilities could never provide value for money at the regular minimum wage.  Sadly that is currently being attacked by one political wing as being inequitable and exploitive.  If they are successful in eliminating these sub-minimum wages those disabled people will lose their jobs.

Much the same in the UK, though in the main it has already happened. Some people would rather see many of the disabled sat at home receiving state benefits and becoming depressed as a result, rather than see them in a sub minimum wage job, helped by a small state top-up and being happy as a result.

[Toofarfromthesea]

38 minutes ago, KBs mum said:

I've never seen a porter or bellhop outside the US hold their hand out. Hotels that have them provide them as part of their guest services. Salaried employees. No tip needed. 

 

And I've never NOT carried my own luggage to my room.  That doesn't mean other people do the same as me.  The world is a large and complicated place, so using what you have personally seen or never seen is a poor guide to reality.

[Toofarfromthesea]

21 minutes ago, LGW59 said:

As a matter of fact I did buy stock, way way back right after the shut-down, at $19+ USD, good investment.  I don't attend board meetings.  No need for me to organize, I am a very good tipper, where I go to eat, they appreciate me.  BTW, besides posting on here and responding to others posts, what are YOU doing!  It is a redundant question, I do not need or want a reply.  Cheers

 

Why should he need to do something if he is happy with the status quo?

[KBs mum]

Just now, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

And I've never NOT carried my own luggage to my room.  That doesn't mean other people do the same as me.  The world is a large and complicated place, so using what you have personally seen or never seen is a poor guide to reality.

Sorry, don't know what your point is. Some hotels have porters/bellhops, some don't. I was talking about those that do, which are usually the ones we choose to stay in. (we don't select hotels on this basis, it is coincidental) 

[KBs mum]

9 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

Much the same in the UK, though in the main it has already happened. Some people would rather see many of the disabled sat at home receiving state benefits and becoming depressed as a result, rather than see them in a sub minimum wage job, helped by a small state top-up and being happy as a result.

As a disabled person, I have no problem with people who have disabilities being paid less, as long as it is on a piece work productivity basis, and there are safeguards in place to avoid exploitation

[LGW59]

10 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Why should he need to do something if he is happy with the status quo?

Where does the word "he" or any name, appear in where you are quoting me?  I did not suggest "he" should do anything at all, I stated what I have done and do.  Pay better attention before you incorrectly respond. 

[LGW59]

16 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

And I've never NOT carried my own luggage to my room.  That doesn't mean other people do the same as me.  The world is a large and complicated place, so using what you have personally seen or never seen is a poor guide to reality.

And I NEVER carry my bags to my room, more reason for me to tip

[KBs mum]

25 minutes ago, LGW59 said:

And I NEVER carry my bags to my room, more reason for me to tip

Outside the US, tipping is not usually required for this service, proving that tipping is not necessary to make it happen 

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, Peter Lanky said:

I don't have any realistic option but to post on discussion forums. Isn't this what discussion forums are for; to discuss? Life's too short to get involved with corporations who are unlikely to listen to any comments I have.

If I can convince one person via a discussion forum to revisit how they view a topic then I have succeeded in my quest. I have changed some of my own views (not many I admit) by online discussion, if my 'opponent' has put forward a reasoned, articulate argument and not tried to insult me along the way.

As I see it if you were really committed as you claim to be you would be doing something in the real world, not just a forum that reaches very, very few people.