Specific power device: NOT a surge protector

[forgotmyCCname]

On 4/29/2022 at 11:42 AM, Funky Fusion FoodsJ said:

As this model is also a surge protector, it will be confiscated.

No, it is not. It specifically mentions that it's not on its description 

I have the same one; I carry a screen shot of the description from Amazon as I do with a heating pad. Have never been asked about either 

[forgotmyCCname]

1 hour ago, westom said:

15 amp wall receptacles are typically connected to 20 amp circuit breakers.  Safety is provided because any one plug (that will mate) can only be connected to an appliance that typically consumes less than 13 amps.

 

More electrical concepts apply.  But that is the executive summary.

Wow! I have learned a lot from you this evening . Thank you!!

[chengkp75]

9 hours ago, westom said:

What reverse voltage?  AC electricity is constantly reversing 50 to 60 times every minute.   Protector cicuits look (perform) exactly same even when hot and neutral are reversed.  The expression "reverse voltage: demonstrates  how to promote disinformation.  No facts or numbers define this mythical 'reverse voltage'.  So it gets automatically believed.

Thanks for the reminder of what AC means.  Reverse voltage happens when the neutral and earth ground are not at the same potential (voltage).  On land, this does not happen, since the neutral and earth ground are connected together at the breaker box.  On a ship, the earth ground is the ship's hull, and you don't want stray current flowing through the hull causing electrolysis in sea water.  So, the neutral and ground are kept separate.  Measuring voltage between hot and ground on land is 120v, between neutral and ground is 0v.  On ships, both hot and neutral measure 60v to ground.  The MOV's in surge protectors place a voltage switched semi-conductor between the hot and ground and neutral and ground.  When the pre-determined voltage is reached, the semi-conductors switch on and provide a resistance free path from the power legs to ground.  When a ship has a ground fault, like a 480v motor insulation failing, there will be 480v on the ground, and only 120v on the hot or neutral legs.  This is "reverse voltage", where the ground voltage is higher than the power voltage, and this causes the MOV to fail.

[chengkp75]

10 hours ago, westom said:

15 amp wall receptacles are typically connected to 20 amp circuit breakers.  Safety is provided because any one plug (that will mate) can only be connected to an appliance that typically consumes less than 13 amps.

 

More electrical concepts apply.  But that is the executive summary.

Guess we better tell my wife about this, because she regularly plugs an 1875 watt (15 amp) hair dryer into a 15 amp receptacle (manufacturer's cord and plug), and there are a whole lot of dryers rated higher than this. 

[westom]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Thanks for the reminder of what AC means.  Reverse voltage happens when the neutral and earth ground are not at the same potential (voltage).  On land, this does not happen, since the neutral and earth ground are connected together at the breaker box.  

And again, neutral and safety ground are only suppose to be less than a few volts different.  But that does not always exist.  So protectors are designed to with a protector part between neutral and ground that has a 330 volt let-through voltage.  As stated before and repeated again.  All protector parts in a 120 volt surge protector do nothing until voltage between any two wires is above 330 volts.

 

For same reasons, all appliances are also designed to not be damaged by reverse polarity (what you call reverse voltage).

 

How much difference between neutral and safety ground on a ship?  60 volts?  No problem.  All appliances are also designed so that this reverse polarity (120 volts) does not cause damage or threaten human life.

 

Reverse polarity does not and must not harm anything found in a house - appliance or protector. Meaning lesser voltages on a ship also cause no damage.

 

Again, plug-in (Type 3) protectors must be far away from earth ground even in homes.  Because tiny transients, too small to overwhelm superior protection inside appliances, can catastrophically damage that high profit, tiny joule, plug-in protector.  In rare cases, a surge too tiny to damage any appliance has also  done this .   Cruise ships take this threat far more seriously.

 

APC recently admitted some 15 million protectors must be removed due to at least 700 potential house fires that they knew about.  That last example was an APC protector that was not on their recall list.  You would have that on a ship?  Recall mentioned  here .  Reason for this problem?  Tiny joules.  Read specification numbers.

 

[westom]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

, and there are a whole lot of dryers rated higher than this. 

So it is not UL listed.  UL is a safety standard.  Some extension cords are also not UL listed - but are still sold.  Even two prong to three prong adaptors are sold - but have no safety listing.  Because it is sold always means it is safe?

 

Using your reasoning, reverse polarity in home wiring (120 volt difference between neutral and safety ground) was also causing protector fires.

 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, westom said:

And again, neutral and safety ground are only suppose to be less than a few volts different.  But that does not always exist.  So protectors are designed to with a protector part between neutral and ground that has a 330 volt let-through voltage.  As stated before and repeated again.  All protector parts in a 120 volt surge protector do nothing until voltage between any two wires is above 330 volts.

This is quite true.  But on a ship, you can have 480 volts between neutral and ground, with the higher voltage in the safety ground.  Does your protector semi-conductors let voltage through in the opposite direction?  From safety to neutral?  Nope.  They are one way semi-conductors, and when exposed to voltage or current in the opposite direction they fail.

 

1 hour ago, westom said:

For same reasons, all appliances are also designed to not be damaged by reverse polarity (what you call reverse voltage).

Nope, not calling reverse polarity as reverse voltage.  Reverse voltage is when the ground voltage is higher than the hot or neutral voltages.

 

1 hour ago, westom said:

How much difference between neutral and safety ground on a ship?  60 volts?  No problem.  All appliances are also designed so that this reverse polarity (120 volts) does not cause damage or threaten human life.

Again, not talking about reverse polarity.  And, the 60v between ground and neutral is the "normal" condition, but since a 480v machine may experience a ground fault (leaking voltage to ground through failed insulation), that can change the voltage between ground and neutral.  Ships have meters to measure this voltage, to determine when a machine or circuit has a ground fault.

 

Not even sure where to go with the "superior protection inside the appliance" as it applies to surge protection, so I'll just SMH.  Residential surge protectors fail because of repeated small excursions above the clamping voltage, where they will partially discharge the surge, and "use up" some of the life of the semi-conductor.

57 minutes ago, westom said:

So it is not UL listed.  UL is a safety standard.

You are correct, it is not UL listed, it is Intertek ETL listed, and the only difference between them is that ETL does not make their own standards for testing, they use standards from other bodies, in this case, UL.

 

57 minutes ago, westom said:

Using your reasoning, reverse polarity in home wiring (120 volt difference between neutral and safety ground) was also causing protector fires.

I'm sorry, when is there 120v between neutral and ground in home wiring?  There may be reverse polarity in the appliance cord if it is a non-polarized plug, but correct me if I'm wrong here, the white wire (neutral) is always connected to the ground wire at the breaker box, so how is there ever 120v between them?  I can tell you that whether using a multi-meter or an oscilloscope, to read voltage waves, there is never 120v between neutral and ground.

 

But, I'll leave this alone for now, its obviously you have no idea about shipboard wiring.

Edited May 3, 2022 by chengkp75

[John&LaLa]

On 4/30/2022 at 10:44 AM, Sunshine3601 said:

I am very surprised to hear they never confiscated your Keurig.    Curious, do you fly with the coffee maker too.     I guess you take your coffee pretty serious if you must bring your own.

 

I'd love to see a picture of a Keurig on a Royal ship. 😉🤣🤣

[Lane Hog]

9 hours ago, John&LaLa said:

 

I'd love to see a picture of a Keurig on a Royal ship. 😉🤣🤣

I'll have to go digging for the brand, but we had a regular off-the-shelf pod coffee maker in our cabin...  RCI provided it.

[westom]

10 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

This is quite true.  But on a ship, you can have 480 volts between neutral and ground, with the higher voltage in the safety ground. 

No higher AC voltage is between two wires.   That 120 volt generator does not put 480 volts on cabin receptacles.  It is a voltage that peaks that resides at or between 120 volts RMS.

 

If 480 volts between neutral and ground, then 120 volts appliances are potentially damaged.  Safety ground is always a voltage located somewhere between the hot and neutral wires.  So that appliances and electronics are undamaged.  And so that human life is not at risk  No 120 volt appliance is safe when a voltage between that appliance, through a human, to ground is 480 volts (peaking at  675 volts).  Please stop inventing number that cannot exist - if human safety exists.

 

'Reverse voltage' is called 'reverse polarity'.  Neither wire will be more than 120 volts relevant to safety ground.  On ships, that number is typically 60 volts.  Meaning protectors should be even safer.

 

Protectors fail due to tiny joules.  Not due to a mythical 'reverse voltage'.

 

If doing this stuff as an engineer, then you know why electronics are so robust.  First it filters transients on AC mains.  Then convert 60 Hz and transients to a DC voltage.  Then filters again.  Then converts that to radio frequency spikes that exceed 300 volts.  Now 'dirtiest' power is inside electronics.

 

No problem.  Galvanic isolation, regulators, and more filters convert that 'dirtiest' power into DC voltages that do not vary even 0.2 volts.  Best protection at electronics is already inside electronics.  Numbers say so.  Only if one learns basic electrical and electronics concepts rather than believe hearsay and myths.

 

Type 3 protectors (you did not know what a Type 3 protector is) are a potential fire threat.  Cruise ships take that fire threat (demonstrated by examples with numbers that say why) far more seriously.

 

Surges do not use up a semiconductor's life.  A surge blows through a transistor's P-N junction - doing damage.  Or it is safely consumed as electricity.  This "use up some of the life" myth is a classic example of junk science reasoning.  "I feel it is true.  So it must be true".  Show me the engineering paper that describes "use up".  I have yet to see it in 50 years of datasheets and application notes doing electronics design.

 

All appliances and all protectors are designed for 0 volts between neutral and safety ground.  And for 160 volts between neutral and safety ground.  On a ship, that voltage can be above zero and below 120 volts - constantly.  Never 480 volts.

 

Protectors are a fire threat due to near zero joules.  No way around that specification number.  Cruise ships take that fire threat seriously.

 

Obviously many urban myths about ship board wiring are promoted.  Without a basic grasp of what appliances and protectors can and cannot withstand.  Even a rumored "reverse voltage" is actually called "reverse polarity".

 

Warning to all.  Technical lies are rampant.  Promoted by people who do not first learn numbers.  That 480 volt number is a real doozy.

 

 

[bstel]

16 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Thanks for the reminder of what AC means.  Reverse voltage happens when the neutral and earth ground are not at the same potential (voltage).  On land, this does not happen, since the neutral and earth ground are connected together at the breaker box.  On a ship, the earth ground is the ship's hull, and you don't want stray current flowing through the hull causing electrolysis in sea water.  So, the neutral and ground are kept separate.  Measuring voltage between hot and ground on land is 120v, between neutral and ground is 0v.  On ships, both hot and neutral measure 60v to ground.  The MOV's in surge protectors place a voltage switched semi-conductor between the hot and ground and neutral and ground.  When the pre-determined voltage is reached, the semi-conductors switch on and provide a resistance free path from the power legs to ground.  When a ship has a ground fault, like a 480v motor insulation failing, there will be 480v on the ground, and only 120v on the hot or neutral legs.  This is "reverse voltage", where the ground voltage is higher than the power voltage, and this causes the MOV to fail.

ah the old Delta vs Wye power.  I work for the Navy and it amazes me how many people I work with have no idea as to the difference between the two.

[bstel]

On 5/2/2022 at 8:38 PM, westom said:

15 amp wall receptacles are typically connected to 20 amp circuit breakers. 

well this is a bunch of BS.  Track builders today are installing 15A breakers, to match the 14 gauge wire they are running in the walls, that then attach to a 15A outlet.  Builders are not installing 20A breakers or 12 gauge wire in houses to save money, unless you pay extra for that.

 

Now if you see a 15A outlet wired to a 20A breaker, most likely that is because the original 20A outlet went bad and the moron homeowner installed at 15A outlet to save $1.50 at Home Depot.

 

15A outlet --> 14 gauge wire --> 20A outlet = Bad

15A outlet --> 12 gauge wire --> 20A outlet = Bad

20A outlet --> 14 gauge wire --> 15A outlet = OK

20A outlet --> 12 gauge wire --> 15A outlet = OK

20A outlet --> 12 gauge wire --> 20A outlet = GOOD

15A outlet --> 14 gauge wire --> 15A outlet = GOOD

[John&LaLa]

2 hours ago, Lane Hog said:

I'll have to go digging for the brand, but we had a regular off-the-shelf pod coffee maker in our cabin...  RCI provided it.

 

Thosevhave been replaced by Lavazza pod machines. 

 

But still no way anyone brings aboard their personal Keurig

[westom]

8 hours ago, bstel said:

15A outlet --> 14 gauge wire --> 20A outlet = Bad

15A outlet --> 12 gauge wire --> 20A outlet = Bad

20A outlet --> 14 gauge wire --> 15A outlet = OK

20A outlet --> 12 gauge wire --> 15A outlet = OK

20A outlet --> 12 gauge wire --> 20A outlet = GOOD

15A outlet --> 14 gauge wire --> 15A outlet = GOOD

Please learn what any electrician would know.  This  is a NEMA 5-15 receptacle.  It is the most common receptacle found in homes.  Connected to a 20 amp breaker.  If 'Bad', then all new homes are bad.

 

14 AWG was once the standard and safe wire for all 20 amp circuits.  12 AWG wire was more recently a standard for 20 amp circuits.  Even 18 AWG wire can safely conduct 20 amps.  But we use 12 AWG wire - oversized - for other electrical reasons.  Not because anything is 'Bad'.  12 AWG is better - for other reasons..

 

If NEMA 5-15 receptacles were not safe for 20 amp circuits, then NEMA 5-20 plugs must be used.  Those look like this.

 

Wire to NEMA 5-15 (15 amp) plug is typically 12 AWG - for 20 amp circuits.  Is done because engineers know what is safe and necessary.  Apparently wild speculation did not learn basic electrical concepts that say why code powers NEMA 5-15 (15 amp) receptacles from 20 amp circuit breakers and 12 AWG wire.

 

NEMA 5-15 receptacles are typically on 15 amp circuit breakers (and 14 AWG wire) when that circuit only powers one receptacle box.  Ie a refrigerator.  Decades ago, all 20 amp circuits safely used 14 AWG wire.   Back then, all 15 and 20 amp circuits used cable that was white.  Yellow for 12 AWG is also new upgrade.

 

One knows this stuff.  Another does not.

 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by westom