Specific power device: NOT a surge protector

[chengkp75]

16 minutes ago, vjmatty said:

Thanks....so if it does have a power outlet, it can't have a cord at all, even a short one?

For RCI, that's what I believe.

[lfreda]

I brought 2 surge protectors on the anthem last week and no one said a word.

[chengkp75]

17 minutes ago, lfreda said:

I brought 2 surge protectors on the anthem last week and no one said a word.

Most security screeners don't know a surge protector from a hole in the ground.  Most cabin stewards don't either, and also don't want to annoy you by having them confiscated, and you then removing the DSC from their wages.  Trust me, it is a proven fact that surge protectors are a danger on ships.  You may use yours for several cruises and not have any problem, your surge protector may be working perfectly, right up until a ground fault (a deck light that fills with rainwater) somewhere far away from your cabin, causes the surge protector to sense "reverse voltage", and the semi-conductors will fail and go into thermal runaway, and the unit will catch fire.

 

Tell me, what are you protecting against with your surge protector on a ship?  Lightning?  The whole ship's wiring system is such that if lightning strikes the ship, it will never enter the electrical system, it merely flows through the hull to the ocean.  I've been on several ships struck by lightning, and none of the electrical or electronic equipment has ever been damaged.  Power surges?  If a transformer shorts out on land, you get 10,000 volts to your house, and yes that will fry your electronics, since the power is stepped down in one step from 10,000 volts to 220 volts.  On a ship, the power is stepped down from 10,0000 volts to 480 volts, then from 480 to 220 volts, and finally from 220 to 110v for your electronics.  Each of the transformers at the various steps would have to fail at the same time in order to send a damaging voltage to your electronics, besides the transformers being totally different from land, and more reliable.

 

None of the electronics onboard the ship, from the radios, to the navigation equipment, to the engine room automation that keeps the lights on, to the POS registers in the bars, to the multitude of desktop and laptop computers on every officer's desk, are protected by surge protectors, because they are dangerous, and are not needed on a ship.

[Sea Dog]

Get this and don't worry.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BHVKPC3/?coliid=I1NL00M2ZWX21M&colid=2R26OFQPM95FA&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it&th=1

 

[chengkp75]

2 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Get this and don't worry.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BHVKPC3/?coliid=I1NL00M2ZWX21M&colid=2R26OFQPM95FA&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it&th=1

I've had issues with this company in the  past, where they claimed no surge protection, but their own advertising photos show that they are.  Could you look on the back and see if the specifications mention "VPN", as this is a measure of surge protector performance.  Interested to see if they had their supplier change the device or not.

[chengkp75]

2 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Get this and don't worry.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BHVKPC3/?coliid=I1NL00M2ZWX21M&colid=2R26OFQPM95FA&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it&th=1

I've had issues with this company in the  past, where they claimed no surge protection, but their own advertising photos show that they are.  Could you look on the back and see if the specifications mention "VPN", as this is a measure of surge protector performance.  Interested to see if they had their supplier change the device or not.

[Sea Dog]

 

22 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

I've had issues with this company in the  past, where they claimed no surge protection, but their own advertising photos show that they are.  Could you look on the back and see if the specifications mention "VPN", as this is a measure of surge protector performance.  Interested to see if they had their supplier change the device or not.

 

 

 

Chief here is a pic of the back of it. You would understand the terms more than me but I do not see "VPN" anywhere. We have only taken it on one cruise and it worked great and had no issues of it being taken from us. Give me your thoughts?

 

[Lane Hog]

Don't plug into the Euro socket with an adapter as it's not labeled as 220 tolerant.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, Sea Dog said:

Chief here is a pic of the back of it. You would understand the terms more than me but I do not see "VPN" anywhere. We have only taken it on one cruise and it worked great and had no issues of it being taken from us. Give me your thoughts?

This should be okay, I think some of these manufacturers have seen a new market, and started making these without surge protection.

[LeeW]

A ground pin is a good hint that the product has a surge protector in it.  We sometimes bring a 1' heavy Y cord with ground and it hasn't been confiscated but all it does is create two outlets and is good with older power cubes.  Princess has only two outlets in one box and they are so close together you can only plug in one charger.  Royal has multiple outlets with good separation so haven't needed the splitter for a few years.

[publicpersona]

On 4/30/2022 at 6:02 AM, chengkp75 said:

Typically, if it is merely a USB hub (no power outlets), they don't bother with them, as they don't consider these to be extension cords.  USB hubs typically don't have surge protection either.  It is the higher power draw of the extension cord to the power outlets that is of concern to RCI.

 

Could you elaborate on what you mean here? How does a (reasonably short) extension cord have any “power draw” at all?

 

My understanding was their concern about extension cords was that someone might use one that is underrated for the load they were being used for and/or a tripping hazard. There’s definitely nothing electrically dangerous about a proper extension cord .. they will provide you one if you ask (and there are quite heavy duty).

[chengkp75]

46 minutes ago, LeeW said:

A ground pin is a good hint that the product has a surge protector in it.

No, a lack of a ground pin is a good hint that the product has no surge protection.  The converse is not true, as you say, you have an extension cord with a ground pin and it is not surge protected.   However, without a ground pin, the product can not be surge protected.

38 minutes ago, publicpersona said:

 

Could you elaborate on what you mean here? How does a (reasonably short) extension cord have any “power draw” at all?

 

My understanding was their concern about extension cords was that someone might use one that is underrated for the load they were being used for and/or a tripping hazard. There’s definitely nothing electrically dangerous about a proper extension cord .. they will provide you one if you ask (and there are quite heavy duty).

The concern was for over drawing an extension cord.  You are correct, that the cord itself has no current draw, but it is what is plugged in that could overdraw the rating of the cord.  No, there is nothing dangerous about an extension cord, yet they are a prime cause of home fires, since people routinely plug too much into them, or they abuse the cord causing high resistance and low insulation.  The typical "lamp cord" extension cord will be overloaded with a hair dryer and anything else, while the heavy duty ones the ship provides can carry more power, and have a higher insulation rating, so they are at less of a risk.  The other problem with passengers bringing extension cords is when they are not in good condition, frayed, kinked, etc.  The ones passengers bring are not inspected for condition, while the ship's ones are inspected.

Edited May 1, 2022 by chengkp75

[PhillyFan33579]

On 4/30/2022 at 12:39 AM, Cmackdaddy said:

Wow!!! We’ve been cruising RCCL for 20+ years and always bring surge protectors and unless we’re in a suite we bring our Keurig coffee pot. Never had an issue after 63 cruises. I see the confiscated stuff on the table on disembarking day but never had an issue. 

I find it hard to believe you have been cruising for 20+ years. You are either very lucky or you don’t cruise that often. Do you bring an iron on board too?

[jcl410]

I boarded last week in San Juan,PR.... I have a a short (about 2 feet/55cm) extension cord with three outlets at the end... I pack it with my CPAP machine; it's useful in hotels when there are few outlets near the bed......

 

Any way,  for the first time, it was confiscated. As I was traveling by myself, I didn't need it. Even if my wife was with me, we would have manged with the two US, and one Euro outlet on the Explorer of the Seas. (It would require taking turns.)

 

Aloha,

 

John

[westom]

UL 1363 means it has no protector parts.  Safety ground (third prong) says nothing about surge protector parts.  Since safety ground does nothing to make any protector effective.

 

UL 1449 means it has protector parts.

 

Protectors strips are a fire threat for the same reason they create so many fires inside homes.  One need only read specification numbers to appreciate why.  Even electronics will safely  convert thousands joules surges into low DC voltages that safety power semiconductors.  Thousands joules can also do this:

"Lizzie Steinmetz, 5, was getting ready for bed with her little brother when she heard a strange noise. "It was like a buzzing noise sound," Lizzie said. She said she saw flames shooting up from a surge protector sitting on top of her dresser."

 

Problem is created by five cent protector parts added to a $3 power strip to sell for $25 or $80.  It is a profit center; not effective protection.

 

Protector parts have a thermal fuse to disconnect only protector parts during a surge.  While leaving that surge fully connected to appliances.  No problem.  Appliances are more robust.

 

But sometimes that thermal fuse does not disconnect protector parts fast enough.  Fire can result.

 

Those protectors are just as dangerous in a home.  But cruise ships take that fire threat far more seriously.  Why is this acceptable behavior?  Because so many are educated by advertising and other disinformation.  Anyone can read what is relevant.  How many joules will it 'block' or 'absorb'?

 

That third 'safety ground' prong exists to protect human life - not appliances.

 

Extension cords:  shape of that wall receptacle means any one plug powered by it is safe.  When one receptacle is powering more than one plug, then a fire threat exists.  That human safety feature is compromised when more than one plug is powered by one wall receptacle.

 

That is also why safe power strips (without protector parts) must have a 15 amp circuit breaker.  So that too many plugs do not demand more than 15 amps from one wall receptacle.

 

Obviously that extension cord must also have a UL listing (or something equivalent).

 

Fires created by extension cords in homes were NOT typically due to overloading.  Extension cords failed mostly due to physical insult.  Arc fault circuit breakers were created because of how extension cords mostly failed.  Not overloading; physical damage.

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by westom

[crewsweeper]

On 4/29/2022 at 11:21 AM, VegasVic14 said:

Allowed or will it be confiscated?

Used this on both the Harmony and the Odyssey this year.  Just stick it in your carryon. No one stops you.  Also look into buying one of these:  European Travel Adapter with 1 US Outlets 2 USB Port - Tessan.com.  .  You'll have more outlets and USB ports than you  need.

[rudeney]

1 hour ago, crewsweeper said:

Used this on both the Harmony and the Odyssey this year.  Just stick it in your carryon. No one stops you.  Also look into buying one of these:  European Travel Adapter with 1 US Outlets 2 USB Port - Tessan.com.  .  You'll have more outlets and USB ports than you  need.

 

Just make sure that whatever device you plug into that 120v outlet is also rated for 220v.  That device does not convert voltage - it just adapts the shape of the plug.  Many electronic devices will work with a range of voltages like 100v-240v AC, but mechanical devices and heating elements (like hair drier, curling irons, fans, etc.) will not.

[VegasVic14]

On 5/1/2022 at 11:08 AM, Sea Dog said:

Get this and don't worry.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BHVKPC3/?coliid=I1NL00M2ZWX21M&colid=2R26OFQPM95FA&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it&th=1

 

This appears to be quite large.  Will it fit into that outlet @ the desk aboard the Mariner? I don't recall if that outlet is recessed a bit or has other design features around it which might prevent this from being used there.

Edited May 2, 2022 by VegasVic14

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, westom said:

Safety ground (third prong) says nothing about surge protector parts.

No, but as I said, lack of a safety ground means there cannot be surge protection.

 

1 hour ago, westom said:

Protectors strips are a fire threat for the same reason they create so many fires inside homes. 

Not really.

 

1 hour ago, westom said:

Those protectors are just as dangerous in a home.

Actually, they're not.  The danger of surge protection onboard ships is due to reverse voltage, which, even at low voltages and low energy levels, can cause failure of the MOV components in the surge protector, starting thermal runaway and fire.  This potential reverse voltage happens when the neutral and safety ground are not at the same voltage (which they are on land), due to the floating ground of the ship's wiring, and the potential of a high voltage (480v, which is below the clamping voltage of most surge protectors anyway) ground fault elsewhere on the ship.  The MOV's in surge protectors are not designed to experience higher voltage in the ground wire than in either of the two power wires, and so they fail.

 

2 hours ago, westom said:

.

1 hour ago, westom said:

How many joules will it 'block' or 'absorb'?

This isn't the problem onboard ships, the joules of energy just aren't there.

 

2 hours ago, westom said:

Extension cords:  shape of that wall receptacle means any one plug powered by it is safe.  When one receptacle is powering more than one plug, then a fire threat exists.  That human safety feature is compromised when more than one plug is powered by one wall receptacle.

 

That is also why safe power strips (without protector parts) must have a 15 amp circuit breaker.  So that too many plugs do not demand more than 15 amps from one wall receptacle.

So, I'm confused.  If a 15 amp outlet can only handle one plug in it, regardless of how much power the appliance draws, how is it that a 5 or 6 outlet power strip protected by a 15 amp circuit breaker can handle more than one plug on the circuit.  And, even if I use a plain extension cord that has 3 outlets on the end, I am still limited to 15 amps by the circuit breaker in the house circuit.

[Sea Dog]

49 minutes ago, VegasVic14 said:

This appears to be quite large.  Will it fit into that outlet @ the desk aboard the Mariner? I don't recall if that outlet is recessed a bit or has other design features around it which might prevent this from being used there.

 

Not large at all. 3.5 x 3 x 2 inches Fits well in a suitcase.

[Charles4515]

4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

So, I'm confused.  If a 15 amp outlet can only handle one plug in it, regardless of how much power the appliance draws, how is it that a 5 or 6 outlet power strip protected by a 15 amp circuit breaker can handle more than one plug on the circuit.  And, even if I use a plain extension cord that has 3 outlets on the end, I am still limited to 15 amps by the circuit breaker in the house circuit.

They can be overloaded. But the most common error that causes fires is daisy chaining power strips. Connecting one to another.

[chengkp75]

9 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

They can be overloaded. But the most common error that causes fires is daisy chaining power strips. Connecting one to another.

Not sure how that can cause a fire, unless the house circuit breaker is defective.

[bigque]

I have been bringing one like this since 2015.  Picked it up on Amazon
 

 

[westom]

8 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

No, but as I said, lack of a safety ground means there cannot be surge protection.

Safety ground does nothing to make a protector effective.  Only earth ground does that.  Plug-in protectors are Type 3 .  Must be more than 30 feet from a main breaker box and earth ground so that it does not do much protection.  So that fire is less likely.

 

Protectors do same with or without a safety ground.  But disinformation promoters know how to create urban myths.  Just forget to include an adjective that must always precede the word "ground".

 

Problem is that tiny surges (too small to damage appliances) can sometimes cause a plug-in protector fire.  As Lizzie saw.

 

8 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Actually, they're not.  The danger of surge protection onboard ships is due to reverse voltage, which, even at low voltages and low energy levels, can cause failure of the MOV components in the surge protector, starting thermal runaway and fire. 

What reverse voltage?  AC electricity is constantly reversing 50 to 60 times every minute.   Protector cicuits look (perform) exactly same even when hot and neutral are reversed.  The expression "reverse voltage: demonstrates  how to promote disinformation.  No facts or numbers define this mythical 'reverse voltage'.  So it gets automatically believed.

 

Protector parts (all three) between neutral, safety ground, and hot wire have a let-through voltage of 330 volts.  The part between hot and neutral is the same part between neutral and safety ground.  And between hot and safety ground. What voltage between those three wires exceeds 330 volts?  None.

 

Reverse voltage myth exposed by numbers.

 

Problem is created by tiny transients, easily made irrelevant by protection inside electronics, that can spike voltages across those protectors parts at greater than 330 volts.

 

Destructive anomaly is quite rare.  Made irrelevant by superior protection already inside all appliances.  And can be a problem for least robust protector parts inside plug-in protectors.

 

The MOVs in surge protectors are designed to experience higher voltage and not fail.  Let-through voltage is 330 volts.  To promote hearsay and urban myths to consumers who ignore numbers, advertising lies are subjective.  No numbers.  Do not discuss critical facts such as its tiny joules and let-through voltage.

 

A surge, that only inflamed Lizzie's protector, did not damage other household appliances.  Same also happened here.   Fortunately the fire busted an aquarium putting out that fire.

 

Protection inside electronics is superior to what is inside a plug-in protector.  A $3 power strip with five cent protector parts. When it fails (catastrophically) on a surge too tiny to damage anything else, then wild speculation says, "My protector sacrificed itself to save my appliance."

 

Undersizing a protector increases sales and profits.

 

Reality.  Fortunately surges are quite rare.  And still cruise ships take that threat quite seriously.

 

Protection is same with or without a safety ground.  Disinformation forgets to mention which ground does protection.  Earth ground.  Plug-in protectors must be away from earth ground to not do much protection - to not create a fire.  Only Type 1 and Type 2 protectors are robust enough to make a connection to earth ground - to do effective protection.  But those cannot be connected aboard ship.

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by westom

[westom]

8 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

So, I'm confused.  If a 15 amp outlet can only handle one plug in it, regardless of how much power the appliance draws, how is it that a 5 or 6 outlet power strip protected by a 15 amp circuit breaker can handle more than one plug on the circuit.  

15 amp wall receptacles are typically connected to 20 amp circuit breakers.  Safety is provided because any one plug (that will mate) can only be connected to an appliance that typically consumes less than 13 amps.

 

More electrical concepts apply.  But that is the executive summary.