Bad experience

[seaoma]

3 minutes ago, Webecruzen said:

I returned home from my Holland cruise to Alaska and Dh and I both have Covid. Do I blame Holland?  Somewhat, once checked in we were seated shoulder to shoulder back to back in the holding area.

 

Unfortunately, now that the cruise lines have decided that covid isn't worth mitigating, this is our new reality for who knows how long.

 

 If I didn't have expiring FCC from canceling a cruise at the last minute when HAL dropped their mask requirement, I wouldn't cruise again for years. I had cruised safely in August for 7 days and in November for 21 days when those protocols were in place. We didn't get sick and very few people had covid on our both of our cruises.

 

Yes, the virus wasn't as transmissible and the cruises weren't packed.

 

Yet, once the most transmissible variant we have experienced rears it's head, the cruise lines decide they can let more people on ships, more unvaccinated people on ships, require testing 3 days before your cruise and quit requiring masks, at the same time understanding that many people are traveling to ports on packed unmasked airplanes, while taking virtually no protections to prevent coming down with covid, such as going out to restaurants to eat, getting manicures and visiting friends and family on the way to the port where they will get into a congregate housing situation on a cruise ship. SMH

 

 

 

 

[Gray Lady]

24 minutes ago, Webecruzen said:

I returned home from my Holland cruise to Alaska and Dh and I both have Covid. Do I blame Holland?  Somewhat, once checked in we were seated shoulder to shoulder back to back in the holding area.  I got yelled at for skipping a chair between me and the next person.  So that is stupid on their part. We wore masks until the fourth day of the cruise. Figuring anyone with a false negative or more recent infection should have symptoms and reported to medical and been quarantined.  However, we were on a tour where several people joined our tour from a land package pre testing before they boarded in Skagway.  Some tested positive once boarding and being tested. As soon as we found they were just joining our cruise untested masks went on.  Another policy I I felt Hal was negligent on.  The reason I feel we caught Covid was from ignorant guests coughing without covering their mouths.  I yelled at many people to cover your damn mouth.  Then the final straw, some real idiot was so nice to his group to turn away from them to sneeze directly at us.  I used language not used in daily life.  I have never seen so many nasty, crude, and rude people in my life.  I guess they never watched Elmo with their kids or grandkids. This was our 6th cruise since restart and first on HAL since 2013.  Alaska was wonderful!  Planning to go back next summer and take our kids and grandkids.  Will likely chose a different line because of this experience.

 

I have a curiosity question for you. DH caught COVID on our land tour before we were able to take our cruise (a story for another time). This was in late June. Do you know if COVID is still so prevalent on the Alaskan land tours? When we were there Holland and Princess had 3 hotels they were using for quarantine. About half of the people on land tours were testing positive and missing their cruises.

[syesmar]

58 minutes ago, seaoma said:

Actually on the day after masks were discontinued on planes, I have in my notes that there were 24 ships sailing green. 76.5% were non-green, either orange or yellow.

Just 2 weeks later, there were 18 ships sailing green and the non-green ships were up to 80%.

By July 15, 100% of ships were sailing with non-green status and actually were in the orange zone, which is just below the worst designation, red. The ships have never recovered. 

The chart of the Green Status for ships is available, if you want to search the internet. To summarize, it started off in Aug with about 40 ships sailing green. It rose steadily until the end of December to 80 ships. Then January showed a big drop down to green ships numbering in the teens, but began to improve, while Omicron was raging, to about 55 green ships. After the mask mandate was removed from the airplanes and the cruise ships followed shortly after, the green ships went to 0 by early July.…

Thanks for these details! This Thread tracked just about every color status change for HAL ships from the re-start until CDC made the changes on July 18, and like you said with the removal of certain protocols ships eventually became consistently, then always Orange. https://boards.cruisecritic.com/topic/2794220-cdc-yellow-category-for-na-does-anyone-have-any-info-as-to-why/

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by syesmar

[seaoma]

12 minutes ago, syesmar said:

Thanks for these details! This Thread tracked just about every color status change for HAL ships from the re-start until CDC made the changes on July 18, and like you said with the removal of certain protocols ships eventually became consistently, then always Orange. https://boards.cruisecritic.com/topic/2794220-cdc-yellow-category-for-na-does-anyone-have-any-info-as-to-why/

 

. 

Yes, thanks for the reminder. I even followed that thread. It's a great timeline.

 

Thanks for your contributions to that thread.

Edited August 3, 2022 by seaoma

[BermudaBound2014]

11 hours ago, seaoma said:

 

Actually on the day after masks were discontinued on planes, I have in my notes that there were 24 ships sailing green. 76.5% were non-green, either orange or yellow.

 

Just 2 weeks later, there were 18 ships sailing green and the non-green ships were up to 80%.

 

The does not appear to be accurate for HAL data (which is the only data I have thanks to the great tracking thread created by Seymor). If you have other data, please link. 

 

Masks were removed on Airplanes on April 13, 2022. There appears to be no significant difference in HAL cruise ship color codings as a result. Here is the record:

 

Based on today's update, with data as of 4/4, Westerdam (Crew Only) remains Green.

Nieuw Statendam, Noordam (Crew Only), Rotterdam and Zuiderdam remain Orange (equivalent to pre-update Yellow). Koningsdam improved to Yellow. Eurodam and Nieuw Amsterdam are back to to Orange. 

 

Based on today's update, with data as of 4/18, Westerdam (Crew Only) remains Green. 

Zaandam (Crew Only) is now Yellow. {Nieuw Statendam and Rotterdam are no longer on the list, outside of US waters}

Eurodam, Nieuw Amsterdam, Noordam (Crew Only) and Zuiderdam remain Orange (equivalent to pre-update Yellow). 

Koningsdam is back to Orange.

 

Based on today's update, with data as of 4/25, Westerdam (Crew Only) remains Green. 

Zaandam (Crew Only) is back to Green.

Eurodam, Koningsdam, Nieuw Amsterdam, Noordam and Zuiderdam remain Orange (equivalent to pre-update Yellow).

 

 

 

 

[BermudaBound2014]

10 hours ago, syesmar said:

Thanks for these details! This Thread tracked just about every color status change for HAL ships from the re-start until CDC made the changes on July 18, and like you said with the removal of certain protocols ships eventually became consistently, then always Orange. https://boards.cruisecritic.com/topic/2794220-cdc-yellow-category-for-na-does-anyone-have-any-info-as-to-why/

 

 

Firstly, thank you for the data thread. It's all we have to work on. I should have been collecting screen shots of the CDC pages like I do for covid hospitalization data, so in the absence of that, your thread becomes even more valuable. Yes, I'm a data person too 🙂 .

 

Obviously there is lots of room for error.  Variables that can't be controlled and the data set is limited, but I've done my best to show that a correlation to population density is a much stronger predictor of ship color coding than the removal of protocols (Remember; HAL didn't removed masks on March 1st). 

 

In the beginning, when HAL had all protocols in place, ships were yellow (which at this time was the worst). I don't recall how many ships HAL had sailing at this time, but based on this data within the first few weeks of carrying passengers, half the ships were yellow (worst) and the others were orange. Note: All lost their green status. This is WITH the most strict protocols in place.

 

7/28: Amsterdam Orange

Nieuw Amsterdam is still Yellow with today’s update (8/6), based on data submitted yesterday. Koningsdam is still Orange (crew only).

 

Nieuw Amsterdam is still Yellow with today’s (8/10) update, based on data submitted yesterday. Koningsdam is still Orange (crew only), as is Zuiderdam (crew only) with this update.

 

With today’s update (8/31), based on data submitted yesterday, Nieuw Amsterdam is still Yellow, Koningsdam is still Orange, and now Noordam is Orange.

 

 

 

 

Then, as we moved through the very low occupancy month of September, we can see that ships returned to green. But was this a result of strict protocols (remember, protocols didn't change) or was this a result of ships sailing with 25% occupancy? I propose that population density is the variable that initiated the change in code in early fall since there was no change in cruise ship protocols. 

With yesterday’s update (9/22), based on data submitted 9/21, all 6 of the HAL ships on the list are back to Green.

 

 

 

 

Color statuses bounced around in the Fall until the mini-shoulder season which is the EXTREMLY low occupancy sailings immediately following Thanksgiving and prior to Christmas.  Not surprising, more ships improved to green during this low occupancy period.  I don't have enough data to assume a causation between color codes and population density, but in the very least, a correlation appears.

 

With today’s update (11/23), based on data submitted yesterday (11/22), Nieuw Amsterdam is Yellow, as is Rotterdam. Eurodam, Nieuw Statendam and Zuiderdam remain Orange.

 

With today’s update (11/24), based on data submitted yesterday (11/23), Nieuw Amsterdam and Nieuw Statendam are back to Green. Rotterdam remains Yellow. Eurodam and Zuiderdam remain Orange.

 

With yesterday’s update (12/3), based on data submitted 12/2, Koningsdam remains Yellow, Eurodam remains Orange, and Nieuw Amsterdam is now Yellow again.

With today’s update (12/15), based on data submitted 12/14, Koningsdam is back to Green. All HAL ships on the CDC page are now Green.

 

 

 

 

Now note the dramatic increase in the number of ships reporting yellow status. Also note that in a press release on December 25th HAL stated that all protocols were still in effect (in other words no changes made to the protocols), yet the number of covid cases skyrocketed. I suggest this is due to the high density holiday sailings and the introduction of Omicron. Remember, at this time yellow was the worst.

With today’s update (12/23), based on data submitted yesterday, 12/22, Rotterdam, Nieuw Statendam, Koningdam and Zuiderdam remain Yellow. Nieuw Amsterdam is also now Yellow. This is the first time 5 HAL ships on the CDC’s page have been Yellow at the same time. ** At this time, CDC was coding yellow as the worst***

 

With today’s update (1/4), based on data submitted 1/3, Eurodam, Koningsdam, Nieuw Amsterdam, Nieuw Statendam, Rotterdam and Zuiderdam remain Yellow. Westerdam (Crew Only) is now Yellow. This is the first time 7 HAL ships have been Yellow at the same time.

 

 

 

 

Now here is where things get interesting. Color codes continued to improve in through January and February. During this time, ships were showing a historical low occupancy levels as people cancelled due to Omicron. Holland didn't change protocols until March 1st (removing mask, easier testing).

 

According to your argument, removing mask mandated on March 1st should have shown a dramatic rise in ship status levels, but this did not happen. I suggest this is because March occupancy levels remained relatively low. Color coding didn't increase until we hit the Spring Break/Easter with higher occupancy. So in spite of no masks, ships reported pretty good color wise.

Based on data as of 3/7, Eurodam and Rotterdam remain Orange (equivalent to pre-update Yellow). 

Based on data as of 3/17, Nieuw Statendam and Rotterdam remain Orange (equivalent to pre-update Yellow). 

Eurodam improved to Yellow. 

 

Four Ships Orange, Four Ships Green

Based on data as of 3/22, Nieuw Statendam, Noordam and Rotterdam remain Orange (equivalent to pre-update Yellow). Eurodam is back to Green.  Zuiderdam is now Orange.

 

 

As I have grown to expect, there was a rise in color coding around Easter/Spring break time frame and then the colors backed off again during the low occupancy month of May.  If the change in protocols truly had that much effect on the color status, one would expect to find no green ships sailing at this time. One would expect that the ships would jump to orange and stay there. That did not happen.

FIVE SHIPS ORANGE, THREE SHIPS GREEN

Based on data as of 3/25, Koningsdam, Nieuw Amsterdam and Westerdam (Crew Only) remain Green.

Nieuw Statendam, Noordam (Crew Only),  Rotterdam and Zuiderdam remain Orange (equivalent to pre-update Yellow). Eurodam is back to Orange.

 

Based on today's update, with data as of 4/4, Westerdam (Crew Only) remains Green.

Nieuw Statendam, Noordam (Crew Only), Rotterdam and Zuiderdam remain Orange (equivalent to pre-update Yellow). Koningsdam improved to Yellow. Eurodam and Nieuw Amsterdam are back to to Orange. 

 

Based on today's update, with data as of 4/18, Westerdam (Crew Only) remains Green. 

Zaandam (Crew Only) is now Yellow. {Nieuw Statendam and Rotterdam are no longer on the list, outside of US waters}

Eurodam, Nieuw Amsterdam, Noordam (Crew Only) and Zuiderdam remain Orange (equivalent to pre-update Yellow). 

Koningsdam is back to Orange.

 

 

 

It wasn't until the summer season (highest population density) that ships turned to all orange and stayed that way. Again, I believe the data shows this was more likely due to occupancy levels than mask removal. 

All 7 HAL Ships on the CDC’s List are Orange

Based on today's update, with data as of 6/20/22, Eurodam, Koningsdam, Nieuw Amsterdam, Noordam, Zaandam and Zuiderdam remain Orange (equivalent to pre-update Yellow).

Westerdam is also now Orange.

 

 

 

 

Sorry for the length of this post. I'm trying to point out that a change in protocols didn't create the orange status.  Instead, a stronger argument can be made that population density is the variable most closely aligned with Orange colored ships. 

 

Now, with all that said, I certainly acknowledge those of you who believe that ships would be 'safer' if everyone wore masks. I understand that some passengers want to reduce the chance of covid spreading by keeping very strong protocols in place. I could argue that a ship with more masking might actually be less likely to spread covid. I get it. I really do. However; both the CDC and cruise lines have determined that keeping strict protocols in place is no longer realistic for the industry and the data above suggests that it was increased occupancy (not mask removal) that shifted the fleet to orange. 

 

 

[seaoma]

1 hour ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

 

The does not appear to be accurate for HAL data (which is the only data I have thanks to the great tracking thread created by Seymor). If you have other data, please link. 

 

Masks were removed on Airplanes on April 13, 2022. There appears to be no significant difference in HAL cruise ship color codings as a result. Here is the record:

 

Based on today's update, with data as of 4/4, Westerdam (Crew Only) remains Green.

Nieuw Statendam, Noordam (Crew Only), Rotterdam and Zuiderdam remain Orange (equivalent to pre-update Yellow). Koningsdam improved to Yellow. Eurodam and Nieuw Amsterdam are back to to Orange. 

 

Based on today's update, with data as of 4/18, Westerdam (Crew Only) remains Green. 

Zaandam (Crew Only) is now Yellow. {Nieuw Statendam and Rotterdam are no longer on the list, outside of US waters}

Eurodam, Nieuw Amsterdam, Noordam (Crew Only) and Zuiderdam remain Orange (equivalent to pre-update Yellow). 

Koningsdam is back to Orange.

 

Based on today's update, with data as of 4/25, Westerdam (Crew Only) remains Green. 

Zaandam (Crew Only) is back to Green.

Eurodam, Koningsdam, Nieuw Amsterdam, Noordam and Zuiderdam remain Orange (equivalent to pre-update Yellow).

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by seaoma

[silversneakers]

The only things you can do are those that make you feel comfortable as it appears that mask or no mask, vaccine or no vaccine, booster(s) or none, do not appear to make much difference as to who contracts COVID. 

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by silversneakers
spell

[Hlitner]

Lets talk a little about cruising/travel in this COVID world...without getting political or being judgmental.  There are actually some real facts although it can be difficult to find the facts among all the chaff.   For now we can say, COVID is likely here to stay!  We also know that the current vaccines will not prevent you from getting COVID (although they should help keep your symptoms relatively mild).  But even mild COVID can put you in quarantine/bed for about a week.  Studies also show that most  masks folks wear are near useless!  There is general agreement (among experts) that properly fitted N95 and KN95 masks are helpful, but they also are far from perfect.  And it is the same with testing.  For doubters just consider that the most protected fully vaccinated person in the world, President Biden, somehow caught COVID even though he and/or most around him are fully vaccinated, generally wear masks, and are tested on a near daily basis.  And Dr. Fauci, who is truly a world-class expert on all things virus, has also caught COVID!

 

On your cruise you will see all kinds of behavior.  Some folks will keep to themselves (often in their cabins), avoid most indoor activities, etc.  and these folks do still get COVID (there are quite a few posts on CC from these folks).  There are others who just cruise like in normal times (I am among that group) having fun, socializing, and only wearing masks when required.  Folks in this group, just like those in the more cautious group, also get COVID.  So lets be honest and say that whether you catch COVID on a trip involves fate and luck.  And finally, there is no doubt (among experts) that travel, and cruising do increase your risk factors.   Those that think they can simply alter their behavior while in travel/cruise mode and protect themselves are just in a state of denial.  Taking precautions might help, but it certainly does not eliminate most of the risk.

 

As to what happens if you do get COVID on a cruise (or traveling on land) that is truly a mixed bag.  On ships it depends on which line, which ship, what the protocols happen to be on the day you test positive, etc.  If you happen to be on a luxury ship in a nice suite you are likely to be treated better in quarantine than on a large mass market ship in a regular cabin.  And you should expect to spend a lot of time, alone, in your cabin.  So it might be a good idea to load up your Kindle with books, put lots of music on your phone, etc.

 

Hank

 

 

[seaoma]

1 hour ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

Now, with all that said, I certainly acknowledge those of you who believe that ships would be 'safer' if everyone wore masks. I understand that some passengers want to reduce the chance of covid spreading by keeping very strong protocols in place. I could argue that a ship with more masking might actually be less likely to spread covid. I get it. I really do. However; both the CDC and cruise lines have determined that keeping strict protocols in place is no longer realistic for the industry and the data above suggests that it was increased occupancy (not mask removal) that shifted the fleet to orange. 

 

The color code business was a minimum number of passengers and crew that were infected. But when the numbers of sick passengers got high, we saw cruise lines  transferring passengers to other ships and disembarking passengers to isolate.

 

My opinion is that strict protocols will help slow the spread of covid. Public Health has been around a long time. It works.

 

But we don't have enough data to drill down on every case of covid on a cruise ship. Initially, the crew were vaccinated with an inferior vaccine that didn't prove to be very effective. They were fine on crew only ships but trouble began when they were exposed to passengers on cruises where even though the most strict covid protocols were implemented, yet the passengers did not always cooperate and the staff did not enforce. 

 

The bold part is key. If you don't participate, then the strict health protocols are diminished and so are the results.

 

How's the increased occupancy while infecting passengers with covid working out for the industry, though? 

 

I think for every cruiser that doesn't care about covid, there is one that does. I will sit and wait to see which group puts the cruise industry back in business.

 

2 hours ago, BermudaBound2014 said:

The does not appear to be accurate for HAL data (which is the only data I have thanks to the great tracking thread created by Seymor). If you have other data, please link. 

 

I was speaking of the cruise industry in general. I'm having issues with CC today, but you can see the chart I referenced on Cruzely. I didn't take screenshots either, which in hindsight, might have been interesting to have.

 

 

[Mary229]

I really don’t understand it.  Without calling out a particular person, if you fear you will get Covid with unacceptable consequences why did you stay? Why?  If you feel you are endangered you leave.   You don’t worry about personal belongings and money lost, you leave.   
 

Covid is not my trigger but I assure you I have left situations in my life, even once checking myself out of the hospital with a cardiologist chasing me.  Phooey on that.  And here I am 7 years later with a healthy chart 

[seaoma]

9 minutes ago, silversneakers said:

The only things you can do are those that make you feel comfortable as it appears that mask or no mask, vaccine or no vaccine, booster(s) or none, do not appear to make much difference as to who contracts COVID. 

 

 

I'll disagree. Those people that utilize all of the protocols and are diligent about them, in my experience don't get covid. Those people that followed sound medical advice as it changed due to the nature of covid, don't get covid.

 

If I had a dime for every time I heard someone say that they followed protocol, except......

That's not how it works.

 

I'm retired, so I can plan my exposure. I have traveled by car across the entire US coast to coast, staying in hotels for a 5 weeks and eating in outside dining. I have been on a 7 night cruise and a 21 day cruise. I spent a month in a condo at the beach. I have spent months on the road in a RV, that spent a lot of time in random repair shops during our travel. I've moved one daughter from her home to my home to her new home. We shopped for furniture. None of us have gotten covid.

 

Everybody says it's just luck. Well, I'm here to tell you that I am the least lucky person I have ever known, so my number should have been up. What I have been is diligent. I don't want covid. I know what my Mom experienced as a post polio sufferer. I have a compromised husband and my only granddaughter has a rare immune disorder. I don't want them to get covid.

 

I guess it really just boils down to whether you care about getting covid or not.

[seaoma]

35 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

And finally, there is no doubt (among experts) that travel, and cruising do increase your risk factors.   Those that think they can simply alter their behavior while in travel/cruise mode and protect themselves are just in a state of denial.  Taking precautions might help, but it certainly does not eliminate most of the risk.

 

I will still maintain that if one person is sitting in a room with 100 people, they may infect 7 people. If 25 people are sitting in a room with 100 people, now everyone has possibly been infected.

 

There may be things about covid we still don't know about, like why some seem to get it and some don't. But to throw your hands up in the air is not the answer to slow covid.

 

So travel smart. But it takes more people to buy into that and that's what we don't have. So the travel industry will suffer for as long as it takes for something to change and what that change is. How long that is...I guess we will wait and see. 

Edited August 3, 2022 by seaoma

[silversneakers]

Bottom line to all of this conversation is that no-one knows how they contracted COVID or when.  Do what you feel is right for you.  I agree, this will be with us going forward, just like the flu. I work in an .environment where people vaxed, not vaxed, boosted, not boosted, masked or not are reporting covid positive. We use cdc guidelines 5 day quarantine with return to work on the 6th day.  It is truly a revolving door, 10 in, 10 out. Fortunately for most, the symptoms are cold-like.