Military Gathering Cruise Director Policy

[sparks1093]

4 hours ago, Linguist208 said:

Not so "totally awesome" for non-American veterans, to be honest.

If I were traveling on a cruise filled predominantly with citizens of another country (thinking an Australian cruise) and they had a veterans gathering I would not expect to hear the Star Spangled Banner but would be honored to be recognized as a vet.

[notscb]

On 11/27/2022 at 3:43 PM, aqualibra said:

If not and it is his personal or political choice, I don't think he should be hosting the event!

*bold added for emphasis.

 

It kind of sounds like you're upset about something that you don't:

a) know the policy for to begin with (if there exists such a policy)

b) appreciate that if the CD is a U.S. Citizen, they are entitled to their freedom of speech and expression regardless of your own personal political beliefs

 

I wonder if assuming the best intentions of the crew in this situation would be helpful.

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by notscb
conciseness

[notscb]

6 hours ago, sanmarcosman said:

Perhaps you will suggest to Carnival that the flag of the United Nations could be present on stage standing alongside the American flag.

I, for one, am going to email carnival's board of directors and demand this become policy.

[MsOne]

One other thing not mentioned are religious beliefs and freedoms. What some call "honoring the flag," is idolizing to others.

[sparks1093]

8 hours ago, notscb said:

*bold added for emphasis.

 

It kind of sounds like you're upset about something that you don't:

a) know the policy for to begin with (if there exists such a policy)

b) appreciate that if the CD is a U.S. Citizen, they are entitled to their freedom of speech and expression regardless of your own personal political beliefs

 

I wonder if assuming the best intentions of the crew in this situation would be helpful.

 

The sticking point for some is that this is part of US federal law, previously quoted. While it is the law it is a law that is not enforced but there are some that feel it should be. But as you mention this does affect freedom of speech and as others have mentioned it does impact religious beliefs. As a vet I support these basic principles of American life. Also as mentioned this is one of the reasons that I served. Is it time for the Flag Code to be removed from law? That is above my pay grade.

 

I do understand what someone means when they say that the CD is a representative of Carnival and that as such they should put their personal opinions away. That is between the employee and the company and it is entirely possible that the CD acted the way the company directed him to. I have no way of knowing either way, but no matter what I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

[1kaper]

As an FYI John posted about this post on his page on the other social media. 

[shof515]

24 minutes ago, 1kaper said:

As an FYI John posted about this post on his page on the other social media. 

screenshot for those who cant access that page or dont like that page:

[ProgRockCruiser]

49 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

The sticking point for some is that this is part of US federal law, previously quoted.

As previously posted:

-----------------------------------

Here is the wording of 36 U.S. Code § 301 "National anthem"

(a) Designation.—The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.

(b) Conduct During Playing.—During a rendition of the national anthem—

(1)when the flag is displayed—

(A) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note;

(B) members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for  individuals in uniform; and

(C) all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and

(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.

-----------------------------------

Bold my emphasis.

 

"Should" is not "law", it is guidance, suggestion, tradition, whatever you want to call it.

 

Also, regardless of "law" or not, it does not, and should not, apply to non-citizens.  Would you want to be obliged to salute or otherwise positively show allegiance to a foreign flag because you are at attendance of some ceremony?  No, you show respect in whatever way is appropriate, such as holding your hands at your side.

 

And finally, we have no idea what this CD has been asked to do, and/or why he did what he did (or didn't).  All this blather is assuming too many things about someone you do not know, which is, um, disrespectful?

 

[sparks1093]

15 minutes ago, ProgRockCruiser said:

As previously posted:

-----------------------------------

Here is the wording of 36 U.S. Code § 301 "National anthem"

(a) Designation.—The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.

(b) Conduct During Playing.—During a rendition of the national anthem—

(1)when the flag is displayed—

(A) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note;

(B) members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for  individuals in uniform; and

(C) all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and

(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.

-----------------------------------

Bold my emphasis.

 

"Should" is not "law", it is guidance, suggestion, tradition, whatever you want to call it.

 

Also, regardless of "law" or not, it does not, and should not, apply to non-citizens.  Would you want to be obliged to salute or otherwise positively show allegiance to a foreign flag because you are at attendance of some ceremony?  No, you show respect in whatever way is appropriate, such as holding your hands at your side.

 

And finally, we have no idea what this CD has been asked to do, and/or why he did what he did (or didn't).  All this blather is assuming too many things about someone you do not know, which is, um, disrespectful?

 

Subject to interpretation for sure, but the first definition that pops up for "should" is 

 

used to indicate obligation, duty, or correctness, typically when criticizing someone's actions.

 

[fireofficer5]

Why is the cruise line playing it during a cruise?

 

[canes20]

20 minutes ago, fireofficer5 said:

Why is the cruise line playing it during a cruise?

 

There is a clue in the title of this thread.

[notscb]

4 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

Subject to interpretation for sure, but the first definition that pops up for "should" is 

 

used to indicate obligation, duty, or correctness, typically when criticizing someone's actions.

 

 

While it may have been more respectful to those in attendance for that specific CD to take off their hat, does this even apply to a non-US flagged ship sailing in international waters with a 95% non-U.S. cruise staff? I think not.

 

Now, from a corporate perspective, I'm sure there will be some changes to this ceremony onboard based on these forums just to maintain brand image and whatnot, but I personally don't think the CD did anything wrong.

Edited November 29, 2022 by notscb

[cruisingguy007]

I think @chengkp75 made the best point, what is the sense in getting all worked up? The cruise lines don't even have to do these things, I'm sure just as many anti-war/different view people complain about them and find offense in one form or another, it's probably easier for them if they just skipped them altogether and avoid the headache considering the wide demographic on the ships between passengers and crew. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't so why bother?

 

This thread reminds me of all the folks who leave bad reviews for businesses because they didn't get a military discount they demanded and felt entitled to and then claim the business must be anti-military or unpatriotic because they didn't acquiesce to dry-begging efforts.This is much ado about nothing, not everyone is going to feel the same way and that's OK. Heck, some might even be offended while others don't particularly care for it but go through the motions. Forcing others to comply with others "expectations" isn't very patriotic or free, trying to get someone in trouble or mess with their livelihood over it is borderline doxxing.       

[thunderingherd11]

18 hours ago, aqualibra said:

I guess I remember the days that all U.S. Citizens followed the U.S. Code that states:

"all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart"

I guess times have changed, but I always follow the code. If others don't that's their own decision. Personally, I believe that since he was representing Carnival, he should have followed the code as a U.S. Citizen.

I have never done that and was not taught that.  I stand with arms down and typically lip sync the words.  If that is offensive, thats on you, not me.  

 

[cruisingguy007]

1 minute ago, thunderingherd11 said:

I have never done that and was not taught that.  I stand with arms down and typically lip sync the words.  If that is offensive, thats on you, not me.  

 

 

I've always done that and was taught that, then again, I was born/raised near active military bases and had lots of friends/classmates with parents in military, went to airshows every year, enjoyed fly overs and seeing all the activity around town, dances on base, trips to the commissary ect. As for me and mine, we stand with hands on heart but I don't begrudge others who feel differently, after-all, that's kind of the point, even liberty I don't particularly like. The USA isn't a totalitarian regime.  

[Drazil65]

Its ok if we all dont agree, that is why we all have choices right? Do what you feel you want or need to do and leave others to their own choices.  This really should not be an issue as no one is stopping anyone from doing exactly what they want to do, the rest is just semantics.   

[mz-s]

2 hours ago, thunderingherd11 said:

I have never done that and was not taught that.  I stand with arms down and typically lip sync the words.  If that is offensive, thats on you, not me.  

 

 

Were you taught to leave your hat on as well?