Question about BC section of the Inside Passage and emissions requirements???

[diekmanj]

I'm planning a family cruise to Alaska for my parents' 50th wedding anniversary. My parents really would like to see the whole inside passage if possible. I've read a lot of posts and comments on here (just very rarely post anything myself) and have learned a LOT over the last few months. I am considering a few southbound cruises and one Vancouver round trip that seem to go through the Inside Passage. But I recently came across a post in an Alaska cruise Facebook page about the BC government limiting cruise ships from going through the BC section of the Inside Passage due to certain levels of emissions and instead making them go around Vancouver Island. Supposedly, the ships only find out which way they can go right before sailing depending on a score that they receive, according to this Facebook post and some other comments the poster made. These changes were supposedly made before or during the covid pandemic. Has anyone heard of this or know if this is all accurate? I tried to research it and didn't find anything about it on the internet. I would post a copy of the Facebook post, but I don't know if that's allowed. I''m a bit skeptical about this, but know that a lot of areas are becoming more strict on emissions. I just need to know if this is real and will impact the HAL or Princess cruises that I'm considering. I would prefer to not go out around Vancouver Island.

[skrufy]

If Canada is restricting cruises from the Inside Passage sounds like no matter what cruise you take round trip or one way you could be sent around Vancouver Island on the ocean side. 

[cruiseryyc]

This is news to me!  I know that both Vancouver and Victoria are working with the cruise lines to try and limit the ships running during a port stop to help curb emissions.

[Heidi13]

14 hours ago, diekmanj said:

I'm planning a family cruise to Alaska for my parents' 50th wedding anniversary. My parents really would like to see the whole inside passage if possible. I've read a lot of posts and comments on here (just very rarely post anything myself) and have learned a LOT over the last few months. I am considering a few southbound cruises and one Vancouver round trip that seem to go through the Inside Passage. But I recently came across a post in an Alaska cruise Facebook page about the BC government limiting cruise ships from going through the BC section of the Inside Passage due to certain levels of emissions and instead making them go around Vancouver Island. Supposedly, the ships only find out which way they can go right before sailing depending on a score that they receive, according to this Facebook post and some other comments the poster made. These changes were supposedly made before or during the covid pandemic. Has anyone heard of this or know if this is all accurate? I tried to research it and didn't find anything about it on the internet. I would post a copy of the Facebook post, but I don't know if that's allowed. I''m a bit skeptical about this, but know that a lot of areas are becoming more strict on emissions. I just need to know if this is real and will impact the HAL or Princess cruises that I'm considering. I would prefer to not go out around Vancouver Island.

 

The entire West Coast is an IMO Emissions Control area, so ships must use low sulphur fuel and/or scrubbers. I also note than management of coastal waters is Federal, not a Provincial jurisdiction. Therefore, I have no doubt the information you mentioned is not factual.

 

A couple of Princess cruise ships do not use the "Inside Passage", but that is due to their size and poor handling characteristics, which are not conducive to safe navigation in confined waters, especially at Seymour Narrows and Race/Current Passage. This decision was driven by the Coast Pilots, not the provincial Govt.

 

The Inside Passage runs from south of Olympia (WA) to Skagway, Alaska. The majority of the cruise lines today see very little of the entire Inside Passage. If you want to see the entire Inside Passage, rather than a cruise ship, I would investigate the ferry options from Alaska State and BC Ferries. If a cruise ship is the preference, check out the smaller ship cruise lines, some of which still use the Inside Passage for most of the route.

[diekmanj]

Thanks to all of you who have commented on this. Heidi13, thank you for that information! That's good to know. Thanks for explaining about the whole inside passage. My parents will be fine without seeing the whole inside passage. They would really like to see the area between Vancouver Island and the mainland and the AK section, as they've heard it is very scenic. I'm sure that they would love to go on one of the smaller ship lines, but that is unfortunately too expensive for us. I'm looking at the Grand and Sapphire Princess, the Volendam, Noordam, and Nieuw Amsterdam, and possibly the Crown Princess. Does the Crown Princess actually go inside Vancouver Island? Princess' website shows it on the inside, but another site shows it going around the island.

[martincath]

54 minutes ago, diekmanj said:

...Does the Crown Princess actually go inside Vancouver Island? Princess' website shows it on the inside, but another site shows it going around the island.

It's the Royal class that has been banned, so Crown should be fine doing Inside Passage from Vancouver. Seems like it's doing a series of 10/11 day RT itineraries this summer from Vancouver with more ports than the usual 7-day Ketchikan, Juneau, Skagway too.

 

June would be the best time (longest days - as some of the Inside Passage is sailed overnight the more daylight hours the better for your parents)

[Heidi13]

3 hours ago, diekmanj said:

Thanks to all of you who have commented on this. Heidi13, thank you for that information! That's good to know. Thanks for explaining about the whole inside passage. My parents will be fine without seeing the whole inside passage. They would really like to see the area between Vancouver Island and the mainland and the AK section, as they've heard it is very scenic. I'm sure that they would love to go on one of the smaller ship lines, but that is unfortunately too expensive for us. I'm looking at the Grand and Sapphire Princess, the Volendam, Noordam, and Nieuw Amsterdam, and possibly the Crown Princess. Does the Crown Princess actually go inside Vancouver Island? Princess' website shows it on the inside, but another site shows it going around the island.

 

If opting for Princess, provided the itineraries are comparable, my preference would be Sapphire, Grand and then Crown. All 3 are Grand Class ships, but the Crown has an additional full deck of cabins, so an extra 500 pax on the same hull. Sapphire was built in Japan, so has a superior build quality than the Italian built ships.

 

When comparing cruise costs, you need to look at the total cost, not the base fare. When I compare our last cruise on Princess, with a comparable cruise on Viking, the Princess base fare was 1/2 Viking, but by the end of the cruise, the per diem costs were virtually identical.

[donaldsc]

5 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

 

 

The Inside Passage runs from south of Olympia (WA) to Skagway, Alaska. The majority of the cruise lines today see very little of the entire Inside Passage. If you want to see the entire Inside Passage, rather than a cruise ship, I would investigate the ferry options from Alaska State and BC Ferries. If a cruise ship is the preference, check out the smaller ship cruise lines, some of which still use the Inside Passage for most of the route.

 

We did the entire inside passage on our small ship 160 passenger cruise from Sitka to Vancouver on the American Queen ship  Ocean Victory.   It was a great cruise.  

 

DON

 

 

[Coral]

A friend who has never cruised Alaska before just sent me a revised itinerary of her cruise which basically goes from inside passage to outside passage and arriving in Ketchikan an hour later.

 

I wonder if this is why. She is on NCL Spirit - an older ship.

 

She was notified Wednesday of the change. I wondered why as her ship is less than 80K tonns. 

Edited January 21, 2023 by Coral

[Heidi13]

15 hours ago, donaldsc said:

 

We did the entire inside passage on our small ship 160 passenger cruise from Sitka to Vancouver on the American Queen ship  Ocean Victory.   It was a great cruise.  

 

DON

 

 

 

Don - Congratulations on seeing the entire spectacular Inside Passage. I have worked this coast for many years, both on cruise ships and local Ro/Pax and you have seen parts of it I haven't. We never headed up the East side of Susan & Roderick Islands to Fiordland Conservancy.

 

Must have been spectacular scenery.

 

Wasn't even aware that route is covered in the local pilotage exam.

[GTJ]

On 1/20/2023 at 5:29 PM, Heidi13 said:

If you want to see the entire Inside Passage, rather than a cruise ship, I would investigate the ferry options from Alaska State and BC Ferries.

I think some people shortchange themselves in not considering the both cruise vessels and ferries, and the various trade-offs between each. I have had pleasurable voyages on each type of service. Alas, the it has become more difficult to sail on the Northern Expedition: It had been that Wilson's operated connecting motorcoach service between Victoria and Port Hardy, but recently it cut back service to Campbell River (with Wavin Flags Taxi providing an expensive trip from Campbell River to Port Hardy). And with its most recent schedule change, Wilson's is now operating to Campbell River only once per month (fortunately IslandLink Bus Service provides multiple trips daily on the same route using vans). Thus, it can be rather cumbersome these days choosing to go by BC Ferries, especially when compared to the ease of boarding a cruise vessel at Vancouver. I wish it were easier to go via ferry.

[Heidi13]

2 hours ago, GTJ said:

I think some people shortchange themselves in not considering the both cruise vessels and ferries, and the various trade-offs between each. I have had pleasurable voyages on each type of service. Alas, the it has become more difficult to sail on the Northern Expedition: It had been that Wilson's operated connecting motorcoach service between Victoria and Port Hardy, but recently it cut back service to Campbell River (with Wavin Flags Taxi providing an expensive trip from Campbell River to Port Hardy). And with its most recent schedule change, Wilson's is now operating to Campbell River only once per month (fortunately IslandLink Bus Service provides multiple trips daily on the same route using vans). Thus, it can be rather cumbersome these days choosing to go by BC Ferries, especially when compared to the ease of boarding a cruise vessel at Vancouver. I wish it were easier to go via ferry.

 

Totally agree, Port Hardy is not easy to get to without a car.

 

Back in the 1980's we used to operate the service to Prince Rupert from the mainland terminal at Tsawwassen. We did 2 round trips every week, except in the summer when we moved to Port Hardy for the alternating north/south schedule.

 

The 2 R/T during the non-summer months covered the entire BC Coast, so having worked that schedule for a number of years, plus 2 seasons in Alaska, I got to know the coast rather well. 

[diekmanj]

Wow! So much great information from you all! Sounds like you've had some amazing experiences and enjoyed spectacular scenery.  Thank you! I appreciate the advice and help.  I actually have looked into the ferry system for the trip. My husband and I have taken the BC Ferry both ways from Tsawwassen to Swartz Bay before on a visit to Victoria and really enjoyed it.  My parents have never cruised before (my husband and I have twice before, bur not to Alaska), and my mom really wants to go on a cruise. So we're planning a cruise and extra days on land.

My Dad has always wanted to visit Alaska and see the scenery. Other than enjoying the Inside Passage, he wants to go king salmon fishing and ride the various railroads. He especially wants to take the longer Bennett Valley train route on the White Pass and Yukon Railroad, so that limits us to ships that are in port at the right times and length of times and the right days for that excursion.  Currently the plan is a salmon fishing charter in Ketchikan, and the train in Skagway. And also ride the Alaska Railroad from Fairbanks to Anchorage (or the reverse), and the Coastal Classic route. And enjoying Glacier Bay, and possibly Hubbard Glacier if the ship we choose includes it. All the ones I'm considering visit Glacier Bay. Not sure what we will do in Juneau yet.

We are looking at late June since that is apparently the best time for king salmon fishing in Ketchikan. And the longer daylight will be nice!

[pdmlynek]

On 1/20/2023 at 5:29 PM, Heidi13 said:

 

The entire West Coast is an IMO Emissions Control area, so ships must use low sulphur fuel and/or scrubbers. ...

 

I really wish that these huge ships would stop using dirty bunker or dirty heavy fuel oil or similar fossil fuels.  The ship builders should switch to quieter, safer, non-polluting nuclear power.   

[GTJ]

21 hours ago, diekmanj said:

My Dad * * * wants to * * * ride the various railroads. He especially wants to take the longer Bennett Valley train route on the White Pass and Yukon Railroad, so that limits us to ships that are in port at the right times and length of times and the right days for that excursion. * * * And also ride the Alaska Railroad from Fairbanks to Anchorage (or the reverse), and the Coastal Classic route.

It seems like your dad wants to do every track mile of all the Alaskan railroads. The "Bennett Scenic Journey" is the correct trip to book, as it traverses all of the White Pass Route presently in service, going as far as Carcross (the track between Carcross and Whitehorse being out of service).

 

The Fairbanks-Anchorage segment (which can be traveled on the Alaska Railroad's Denali Star or the Wilderness Express car attached to that train) plus the Coastal Classic train will cover most of the Alaska Railroad. But those trains alone means that your dad will miss out on the branch line to Whittier and the branch line to the airport. If riding those tracks are important then consider the following. Most cruises that begin or end in Seward have a chartered train that travels between Seward and the airport using the airport branch line. Additionally, the Glacier Discovery train travels between Anchorage and Whittier using the Whittier branch line. So he would get a "complete" excursion by sailing into Seward, then riding the chartered train from Seward to the airport, then spend the night in Anchorage (there's a local transit bus connecting the airport with downtown Anchorage). The next day, get a round trip on the Glacier Discovery train from Anchorage to either Whittier, Spencer, or Grandview. Then another night in Anchorage, and the following day get the Denali Star from Anchorage to Fairbanks. Alternatively, make a stopover at Denali. If you do that stopover, then you could get a full railroad experience by riding the McKinley Explorer (the Holland America-Princess train, tickets for which are available to everyone and not just their cruise line passengers) from Anchorage to Denali, and after stopping over at the park, continue onward to Fairbanks on the Alaska Railroad's Denali Star. This would provide him with complete coverage of all railroad track with regularly scheduled passenger trains, plus multiple types of equipment: Consider that the chartered train includes single deck Panorama Dome cars, the Glacier Discovery train includes a unique double deck DMU, the McKinley Express is exclusively double deck Ultra Dome cars, and the Denali Star includes a Vista-Dome car for coach passengers, truly a railfan's delight. Finally, it should be noted that there is a branch line to Palmer that has traditionally had passenger service during the Alaska State Fair. It has not operated during the pandemic, but it may be back in operation in 2023. Typically, these trains operate on Labor Day weekend (Saturday, Sunday, Monday) and on the weekend prior (Saturday and Sunday), and sometimes Friday too. So if you're able to schedule you're cruise around Labor Day, then spend another night in Anchorage and ride the train on the Palmer branch. These trains sell out quickly, so if you able to do this contact the railroad to confirm if service will operate in 2023, and if so, try to get tickets. Getting to ride this line, in addition to the other train routes, would be the best trip possible!

[Heidi13]

7 hours ago, pdmlynek said:

 

I really wish that these huge ships would stop using dirty bunker or dirty heavy fuel oil or similar fossil fuels.  The ship builders should switch to quieter, safer, non-polluting nuclear power.   

 

Shipbuilders only build what the owner's order.

 

Nuclear is not happening in the commercial industry due to huge cost and few if any have the training. Alternatives are now appearing, but it isn't nuclear, especially when the hull isn't grey.

[GTJ]

16 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

Shipbuilders only build what the owner's order.

They also won't build what is unlawful. There may well be movement afoot to outlaw certain types of shipbuilding. Whether such a political environment exists in those countries where shipbuilding exists is a separate question, one on which I cannot opine.

[Heidi13]

2 hours ago, GTJ said:

They also won't build what is unlawful. There may well be movement afoot to outlaw certain types of shipbuilding. Whether such a political environment exists in those countries where shipbuilding exists is a separate question, one on which I cannot opine.

 

Correct, shipyard can't build anything unlawful, as the design/build specs issued by the owner will have boilerplate text - such as in accordance with all International, National and Class Rules, etc.

 

While local governments can implement health and safety regulations for shipyards, the design rules for commercial ships in most countries are managed by the Classification Societies. Even before I retired, all plan approval had been delegated from Flag (Government) to Class (Classification Society) in Canada, and we were one of the later countries to delegate. Class must still follow national standards, but they are driven by International Conventions.

[pdmlynek]

4 hours ago, GTJ said:

They also won't build what is unlawful. There may well be movement afoot to outlaw certain types of shipbuilding. Whether such a political environment exists in those countries where shipbuilding exists is a separate question, one on which I cannot opine.

 

I find it very problematic that we, as a society, have identified global warming as a serious problem for our world, yet, we have not agreed amongs ourselves, that huge ships should be nuclear powered, instead of using dirty heavy fuel oil.  Why is nuclear power not subsidized as an alternative energy source to petroleum products?

 

(Sorry, I know that this is pointless rant... 🙂 )

Edited January 28, 2023 by pdmlynek

[diekmanj]

On 1/26/2023 at 2:05 PM, GTJ said:

It seems like your dad wants to do every track mile of all the Alaskan railroads. The "Bennett Scenic Journey" is the correct trip to book, as it traverses all of the White Pass Route presently in service, going as far as Carcross (the track between Carcross and Whitehorse being out of service).

 

The Fairbanks-Anchorage segment (which can be traveled on the Alaska Railroad's Denali Star or the Wilderness Express car attached to that train) plus the Coastal Classic train will cover most of the Alaska Railroad. But those trains alone means that your dad will miss out on the branch line to Whittier and the branch line to the airport. If riding those tracks are important then consider the following. Most cruises that begin or end in Seward have a chartered train that travels between Seward and the airport using the airport branch line. Additionally, the Glacier Discovery train travels between Anchorage and Whittier using the Whittier branch line. So he would get a "complete" excursion by sailing into Seward, then riding the chartered train from Seward to the airport, then spend the night in Anchorage (there's a local transit bus connecting the airport with downtown Anchorage). The next day, get a round trip on the Glacier Discovery train from Anchorage to either Whittier, Spencer, or Grandview. Then another night in Anchorage, and the following day get the Denali Star from Anchorage to Fairbanks. Alternatively, make a stopover at Denali. If you do that stopover, then you could get a full railroad experience by riding the McKinley Explorer (the Holland America-Princess train, tickets for which are available to everyone and not just their cruise line passengers) from Anchorage to Denali, and after stopping over at the park, continue onward to Fairbanks on the Alaska Railroad's Denali Star. This would provide him with complete coverage of all railroad track with regularly scheduled passenger trains, plus multiple types of equipment: Consider that the chartered train includes single deck Panorama Dome cars, the Glacier Discovery train includes a unique double deck DMU, the McKinley Express is exclusively double deck Ultra Dome cars, and the Denali Star includes a Vista-Dome car for coach passengers, truly a railfan's delight. Finally, it should be noted that there is a branch line to Palmer that has traditionally had passenger service during the Alaska State Fair. It has not operated during the pandemic, but it may be back in operation in 2023. Typically, these trains operate on Labor Day weekend (Saturday, Sunday, Monday) and on the weekend prior (Saturday and Sunday), and sometimes Friday too. So if you're able to schedule you're cruise around Labor Day, then spend another night in Anchorage and ride the train on the Palmer branch. These trains sell out quickly, so if you able to do this contact the railroad to confirm if service will operate in 2023, and if so, try to get tickets. Getting to ride this line, in addition to the other train routes, would be the best trip possible!

Thank you so much for all of this information about the trains. Great information! I will look into it!

[PACD_JG]

On 1/20/2023 at 10:59 PM, Coral said:

A friend who has never cruised Alaska before just sent me a revised itinerary of her cruise which basically goes from inside passage to outside passage and arriving in Ketchikan an hour later.

 

I wonder if this is why. She is on NCL Spirit - an older ship.

 

She was notified Wednesday of the change. I wondered why as her ship is less than 80K tonns. 

I'm just hearing about this now.   I'm curious to see if you know more because Holland America still has all of their ships that embark or disembark in Vancouver (Volendam, Koningsdam, Nieuw Amsterdam, and Noordam) going through Johnstone Strait.

[Coral]

20 minutes ago, PACD_JG said:

I'm just hearing about this now.   I'm curious to see if you know more because Holland America still has all of their ships that embark or disembark in Vancouver (Volendam, Koningsdam, Nieuw Amsterdam, and Noordam) going through Johnstone Strait.

That is all I know.