ETIAS

[molecrochip]

As with US ESTA, the expectation will be that the ETIAS should be approved before you first join the leg that brings you into the Schengen zone. Therefore if you don't have a valid ETIAS you should not sail.

 

Applying for an ETIAS will 'approve' your passport for a period of up to 3 years/remaining validity. You will then be required to provide your passport number during check-in. This undertakes an instant check against the ETIAS database to show that your passport number is approved.

 

The same checks also query the EES database. If you've exceeded your 90/180, you will not be approved and refused embarkation to the ship.

 

It is the requirement of the carrier bringing you into the Schengen Zone to ensure that all passengers have the ETIAS approval and have been checked against the EES database. If you do not have the approvals by the time the ship sails, you stay in Southampton. There are heavy penalties for the cruise companies if this isn't carried out property. This is no different to the airlines running a check against the ESTA database at check-in.

 

Once a ship leaves Southampton, P&O can transmit the data of who is onboard to the relevant port authority along with confirmation that they've carried out the appropriate checks.  The local authorities then have time to re-check ETIAS and EES. 

 

On arrival in any port, there is a clearance procedure whereby the port authority check the paperwork/records are all in order. The port authority can require that the passenger is refused disembarkation. Their cruise card will be restricted from leaving the ship. I understand this is well practiced and happens with crew regularly (world cruise) as getting access to a country where the ship calls once a year is disproportionate in effort and cost.

[molecrochip]

To follow-up the Biometric data collection is currently anticipated to be collected on arrival. The main countries intend for self-service kiosks where you can swipe your passport and then record your facial image and finger prints. You then proceed to either an e-gate if the system is happy, or a manual border check if the system needs more information.

 

The EU has suggested that land and sea crossings are dealt with by way of portable table devices for collecting data. What is unknown is whether they will allow, for example, P&O to collect this data at check-in/en-route.

[terrierjohn]

3 hours ago, cruising.mark.uk said:

This is what worries me - how are passengers on a cruise from the UK going to get checked out of the Schengen zone?  If - as others have suggested - there have been problems in the past with P&O not passing on details of passengers leaving the US resulting in them overstaying their ESTA, will we be able to rely on P&O informing the EU that passengers have left the Schengen zone at the end of a Southampton to Southampton cruise or after the last EU port on a transatlantic or other cruise?  If they don't get that right, there is a risk that someone taking 2 cruises to Europe six months apart will be refused entry on the second one because the system thinks they never left after the first one and / or have exceeded their 90 / 180 days.

Rather than stressing about the potential problems the scheme might create, why not just wait until it starts and see just what procedures are adopted by the cruise lines, to ensure a continuation of the current smooth operation of port visits.  Might cruise ship passengers sailing from and to the UK, be considered as staying in the UK since they wont be staying in EU accommodation?

[9265359]

2 hours ago, molecrochip said:

The same checks also query the EES database. If you've exceeded your 90/180, you will not be approved and refused embarkation to the ship.

And so as I mentioned before, you could be fine for the 90/180 when you booked, but over the 90/180 by the time you come to embark - and undoubtedly there will be be people caught by this.

 

2 hours ago, molecrochip said:

On arrival in any port, there is a clearance procedure whereby the port authority check the paperwork/records are all in order. The port authority can require that the passenger is refused disembarkation. Their cruise card will be restricted from leaving the ship.

Theoretically it is an option to allow a passenger who has exceeded 90/180 to sail but not be allowed to disembark at the Schengen ports, but I doubt any cruise company would allow it.

 

2 hours ago, molecrochip said:

To follow-up the Biometric data collection is currently anticipated to be collected on arrival. The main countries intend for self-service kiosks where you can swipe your passport and then record your facial image and finger prints. You then proceed to either an e-gate if the system is happy, or a manual border check if the system needs more information.

 

The EU has suggested that land and sea crossings are dealt with by way of portable table devices for collecting data. What is unknown is whether they will allow, for example, P&O to collect this data at check-in/en-route.

 

The issues quoted by the authorities for Dover and St Pancras have been that the biometric scanning has to be done by a Schengen area border guard not the Dover or St Pancras UK staff, and concerns about the number of how many border guards will be made available to do this at peak times.

 

It would therefore be surprising if they allowed cruise companies in non-Schengen countries to have their staff to do the scanning themselves.

 

If they don’t it means it would have to be captured on arrival at the first Schengen port of call - and that will be fun on the big ships.

[Starburst 21]

2 hours ago, molecrochip said:

As with US ESTA, the expectation will be that the ETIAS should be approved before you first join the leg that brings you into the Schengen zone. Therefore if you don't have a valid ETIAS you should not sail.

 

Applying for an ETIAS will 'approve' your passport for a period of up to 3 years/remaining validity. You will then be required to provide your passport number during check-in. This undertakes an instant check against the ETIAS database to show that your passport number is approved.

 

The same checks also query the EES database. If you've exceeded your 90/180, you will not be approved and refused embarkation to the ship.

 

It is the requirement of the carrier bringing you into the Schengen Zone to ensure that all passengers have the ETIAS approval and have been checked against the EES database. If you do not have the approvals by the time the ship sails, you stay in Southampton. There are heavy penalties for the cruise companies if this isn't carried out property. This is no different to the airlines running a check against the ESTA database at check-in.

 

Once a ship leaves Southampton, P&O can transmit the data of who is onboard to the relevant port authority along with confirmation that they've carried out the appropriate checks.  The local authorities then have time to re-check ETIAS and EES. 

 

On arrival in any port, there is a clearance procedure whereby the port authority check the paperwork/records are all in order. The port authority can require that the passenger is refused disembarkation. Their cruise card will be restricted from leaving the ship. I understand this is well practiced and happens with crew regularly (world cruise) as getting access to a country where the ship calls once a year is disproportionate in effort and cost.

Hi, I don't know if you have been following the thread regarding Stay Compliance and US Customs and Border, it is very similar to this thread.  This was the Ventura 35 night US and Caribbean cruise earlier this year, we entered US at New Orleans, showed our printed ESTAs and had our passports stamped for a 90 day stay.  When we left the USA at Port Canaveral our passports were not checked or scanned, we (several people on this board and numerous others on other social media) have  had emails from US Customs advising that we are about to overstay our 90 days.  P&O have said that they are trying to amend our records but nothing has changed so far.  Do you know if we will be denied entry to the US as their records will now show us as overstaying and can you suggest a way forward to sort this out?  If you think it's better to reply on the other thread that's fine.

Thank you.

[molecrochip]

1 hour ago, 9265359 said:

And so as I mentioned before, you could be fine for the 90/180 when you booked, but over the 90/180 by the time you come to embark - and undoubtedly there will be be people caught by this.

 

Theoretically it is an option to allow a passenger who has exceeded 90/180 to sail but not be allowed to disembark at the Schengen ports, but I doubt any cruise company would allow it.

 

 

The issues quoted by the authorities for Dover and St Pancras have been that the biometric scanning has to be done by a Schengen area border guard not the Dover or St Pancras UK staff, and concerns about the number of how many border guards will be made available to do this at peak times.

 

It would therefore be surprising if they allowed cruise companies in non-Schengen countries to have their staff to do the scanning themselves.

 

If they don’t it means it would have to be captured on arrival at the first Schengen port of call - and that will be fun on the big ships.

The checks are to be carried out at the time of physical departure check-in therefore doesn’t matter what their status was at booking or even a week before hand. It’s the passengers responsibility to ensure they have enough days left in their rolling 180.

 

Under the new rules, the cruise line is not allowed to bring to the Schengen anyone who doesn’t hold a valid ETIAS or hasn’t met the EES requirements.

[molecrochip]

1 hour ago, Starburst 21 said:

Hi, I don't know if you have been following the thread regarding Stay Compliance and US Customs and Border, it is very similar to this thread.  This was the Ventura 35 night US and Caribbean cruise earlier this year, we entered US at New Orleans, showed our printed ESTAs and had our passports stamped for a 90 day stay.  When we left the USA at Port Canaveral our passports were not checked or scanned, we (several people on this board and numerous others on other social media) have  had emails from US Customs advising that we are about to overstay our 90 days.  P&O have said that they are trying to amend our records but nothing has changed so far.  Do you know if we will be denied entry to the US as their records will now show us as overstaying and can you suggest a way forward to sort this out?  If you think it's better to reply on the other thread that's fine.

Thank you.

There has been a mistake somewhere.
 

When you leave any country by cruise, the cruise line provides a list of those onboard and passport numbers. This enables the country to register you as departed.

 

Some part of that process hasn’t happened right. It shouldn’t be a regular occurrence.

[Starburst 21]

1 hour ago, molecrochip said:

There has been a mistake somewhere.
 

When you leave any country by cruise, the cruise line provides a list of those onboard and passport numbers. This enables the country to register you as departed.

 

Some part of that process hasn’t happened right. It shouldn’t be a regular occurrence.

Thank you for your reply.

Do you have any suggestions as to how I can get it resolved?

[david63]

2 hours ago, molecrochip said:

It shouldn’t be a regular occurrence.

But it is - it has been happening since 2019 to my knowledge.

Edited June 26, 2023 by david63

[molecrochip]

31 minutes ago, Starburst 21 said:

Thank you for your reply.

Do you have any suggestions as to how I can get it resolved?

If you contact P&O then hey should be able to resolve with US authorities.

 

If travelling to US then I’d take copy of P&O booking confirmation as it lists ports and should tally with arrival data, therefore confirm departure data.

I don’t know why it’s such as regular occurrence. Wonder if it’s after the same last port?

[david63]

2 hours ago, molecrochip said:

Wonder if it’s after the same last port?

In my case it was New York

[9265359]

5 hours ago, molecrochip said:

The checks are to be carried out at the time of physical departure check-in therefore doesn’t matter what their status was at booking or even a week before hand. It’s the passengers responsibility to ensure they have enough days left in their rolling 180.

 

Under the new rules, the cruise line is not allowed to bring to the Schengen anyone who doesn’t hold a valid ETIAS or hasn’t met the EES requirements.

Exactly.
 

Someone books a cruise for 2024 or 2025, miscounts their days before their cruise, and then ‘boom’ on the day of departure they turn up and P&O check-in (not a Schengen border guard) has to tell them they are going nowhere.

 

Prepare for the tales of woe on this board and how thousands of pounds have been lost.

[terrierjohn]

25 minutes ago, 9265359 said:

Exactly.
 

Someone books a cruise for 2024 or 2025, miscounts their days before their cruise, and then ‘boom’ on the day of departure they turn up and P&O check-in (not a Schengen border guard) has to tell them they are going nowhere.

 

Prepare for the tales of woe on this board and how thousands of pounds have been lost.

Do you actually think that the 90/180 rule was intended to limit the number of holidays a non EU citizen takes in hotels or ports of call on a cruise?  IMO it is being done to limit the time spent in the EU by holiday home owners, although even here I cannot think of a justifiable reason, other than maybe to punish Brits for daring to have the audacity to leave their blessed Union.

Edited June 26, 2023 by terrierjohn

[Snow Hill]

9 hours ago, terrierjohn said:

Do you actually think that the 90/180 rule was intended to limit the number of holidays a non EU citizen takes in hotels or ports of call on a cruise?  IMO it is being done to limit the time spent in the EU by holiday home owners, although even here I cannot think of a justifiable reason, other than maybe to punish Brits for daring to have the audacity to leave their blessed Union.

The 90/180 rule came into affect in 2013, replacing the previous Schengen rule so predates the U.K. leaving. It’s a visa waiver type system, you can stay longer than 90 days but you would need to apply for a visa, as you would for many other countries. 

[9265359]

10 hours ago, terrierjohn said:

Do you actually think that the 90/180 rule was intended to limit the number of holidays a non EU citizen takes in hotels or ports of call on a cruise?  IMO it is being done to limit the time spent in the EU by holiday home owners, although even here I cannot think of a justifiable reason, other than maybe to punish Brits for daring to have the audacity to leave their blessed Union.

 

The 90/180 rule is the standard Schengen Area rule - it was not a rule created specifically for the British as a result of leaving the EU, the same as ETIAS is not specifically aimed at the British.

 

It just 'is what it is', as it is simply as a result of British citizens no longer being EU citizens and benefitting from freedom of movement within the EU.

 

Who does it impact, well yes it does impact those who own second homes in the EU, although those who were there before had the opportunity to obtain residency quite easily.

 

The most significant impact of the 90/180 rule (not the general working, studying, etc. in the EU) is now is on those who choose to spend longer periods of time away from the UK, particularly in the winter.

 

Having done that since I retired a few years ago it is surprising just how many people there are doing it, perhaps particularly surprising for those on this forum who no longer fly. Southern Spain, Madeira, the Canaries, Cyprus - there are huge numbers of British people (and lots of others from northern Europe) spending a few months away from the cold. Property rental long term is cheap over winter, food and eating out is cheaper if you are there for a few months, and the sun is mostly shining.

 

49 minutes ago, Snow Hill said:

The 90/180 rule came into affect in 2013, replacing the previous Schengen rule so predates the U.K. leaving. It’s a visa waiver type system, you can stay longer than 90 days but you would need to apply for a visa, as you would for many other countries. 

 

The issue for most is not the visa itself, but the associated requirements and cost, the main one for most people being that you are required to have full health insurance (not just travel insurance), which can be a significant cost.

 

But anyway, this gets away from the point that an awful lot of people are unaware of the 90/180 rule, and if they are aware of it frequently misunderstand it (mainly in relation to the rolling nature of the 180 days), and that it hasn't been strongly enforced by the EU border guards since the UK left the EU - if someone has travelled more than a couple of times to the EU then it would take ten minutes at the passport kiosk for the border guard to check all the stamps in the passport, identify which are relevant, and then enter those dates into the Schengen calculator (Schengen-calculator (europa.eu)) to see if they are ok or not - and they just don't have the time for that.

 

And so I would strongly suspect there are lots of people who are inadvertently overstaying and breaking the 90/180 rule, and it is only when EES is turned on they will suddenly find that they have been - and for P&O those people will be finding out at the check-in desk on the day of departure. With tears, arguments, blame and recriminations about lost money.

Edited June 27, 2023 by 9265359
spelling

[david63]

I am still of the opinion that cruise passengers who are only calling at a port for a few hours will be exempt from EES - the logistics of checking everyone in and checking everyone out at every port will make it impractical

[9265359]

1 hour ago, david63 said:

I am still of the opinion that cruise passengers who are only calling at a port for a few hours will be exempt from EES - the logistics of checking everyone in and checking everyone out at every port will make it impractical

 

There is no exemption in Regulation 2017/2226 (EUR-Lex - 32017R2226 - EN - EUR-Lex (europa.eu)) for such visitors.

 

The border guards don't need to check everyone in and out - the cruise ship does that already and reports any people who have failed to return to the ship, and so all that is needed is for the cruise company to notify the authorities of everyone sailing at the start of the cruise - pretty much as they do now.

 

The difference being that information will end up in EES and EES will automatically add up the days and will be able to spot any 90/180 overstayers.

[LA30]

Maybe I'm a lazy reader, but has anyone said the exact date that the ETIAS system starts?

[david63]

1 minute ago, LA30 said:

Maybe I'm a lazy reader, but has anyone said the exact date that the ETIAS system starts?

Nobody knows as it is TBA - but allegedly in 2024

[david63]

Just found this (section 5) where it seems to imply that there is a difference between cruise passengers disembarking and passengers "going ashore" - the latter is, it would appear, still to be defined.

[tring]

53 minutes ago, david63 said:

Just found this (section 5) where it seems to imply that there is a difference between cruise passengers disembarking and passengers "going ashore" - the latter is, it would appear, still to be defined.

 

It would be good if there was an exemption that would be good, or if not they may change that once chaos starts to rule if no exception.made.  we do not have good memories of a river cruise when we were told some passengers may be asked to go up to reception to report to border staff at about 2am when we crossed into Schengen.  They called the cabin to say my husband had to go up, then, after he returned they rang again to say I had to go up.  We were not best pleased with that at all.  We get the impression Schengen just want to give people grief.  That was pre Brexit.

 

[terrierjohn]

4 hours ago, david63 said:

I am still of the opinion that cruise passengers who are only calling at a port for a few hours will be exempt from EES - the logistics of checking everyone in and checking everyone out at every port will make it impractical

That sounds more likely, the EU probably only needs confirmation that each ship has not left anyone behind, or am I assuming too much in expecting that the EU  has suddenly developed common sense? 😁

[david63]

1 hour ago, terrierjohn said:

am I assuming too much in expecting that the EU  has suddenly developed common sense

You know full well that the EU has not got to where it is today by using common sense😇

[kayelbee]

On 6/26/2023 at 7:55 AM, 9265359 said:

And so I am very very glad to have an Irish passport which means I can avoid all of this hassle, and although my wife does not and has a UK passport, as the spouse of an EU citizen she is not bound by the 90/180 day rule whilst she travels with me. 

 

 

9265359, have you had to prove this at a Schengen border?

My husband has an Irish passport and we have always travelled together but, so far, have kept out Schengen travels to just below the 90/180 limit.

I am very interested in how this would be sorted at a cruise checkin desk, I can imagine the scenario:

Husband and I go to check in but, because the cruise would put me over the 90/180 (my passport is always stamped on entry exit to Schengen, but his EU passpot of course isn't) I am denied boarding.

I can't see the staff at Southampton being swayed by me producing numerous copies of old boarding and check in documents showing we always travel together and it doesn't apply.

I have even contacted the Irish Government by email for clarification as to whether there is an exemption, due to the infringment of his right to travel because of my non EU status and they said no such exemption exisited...even after me quoting the relevent Act (or whatever it is)

I am looking for a couple in a similar situation to mine who has managed to travel over the 90/180 and been let into a Schengen country even though the border guard was aware the 9-/180 had been exceeded.

[9265359]

14 hours ago, kayelbee said:

I have even contacted the Irish Government by email for clarification as to whether there is an exemption, due to the infringment of his right to travel because of my non EU status and they said no such exemption exisited...even after me quoting the relevent Act (or whatever it is)

 

They are wrong.

 

Firstly you have EU Directive 2004/38 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32004L0038 on the rights of free movement for EU citizens and family members (para 9, Art 2, Art 3, Art 4, and Art 6).

 

Now take a look at the EU's Practical Handbook for Border Guards https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2022-11/Practical handbook for border guards_en.pdf where in section 2.1.2 it confirms that there is no limitation to the 90 days in 180 for the non-EU family members of EU citizens (where it mentions three months is because you must declare residency if you stay in one country for that long).

 

And take a look at the examples in 2.1.2, and the first one in particular -  

 

An Indian national married to a French citizen may accompany his French spouse to Germany for three months, Spain for two months and Italy for three months, thus staying in the area without internal border controls for a total consecutive period of eight months. 
 

Change the words 'Indian' to British and 'French' to Irish to reflect that India and the UK are not in the EU and France and Ireland are, and you have your answer.

 

But if you are still unsure then email the EU's Europe Direct contact centre https://european-union.europa.eu/contact-eu_en and you will receive a reply the same as quoted on this Spanish Citizens advice page - www.citizensadvice.org.es/schengen-90-days-in-180-day-ruling-for-non-eu-spouses-of-eu-citizens/

 

And then you could take a look at the EES regulations for when that comes in, which are set out in EU Regulation 2017/2226 - https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32017R2226 and in particular Art 2 para 1(b) and para 4, Art 11 para 1(b), Art 16 para 1(c), and Art 17 para 2 which covers the fact that EES must recognise that the non-EU citizen is not constrained by the 90 days when travelling with their EU spouse.

 

 

14 hours ago, kayelbee said:

Husband and I go to check in but, because the cruise would put me over the 90/180 (my passport is always stamped on entry exit to Schengen, but his EU passpot of course isn't)

 

And that is correct, as confirmed in the Schengen Borders Code set out in EU Regulation 2016/399 - https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32016R0399 Art 2 para 5.

 

But the stamping of the passport simply confirms your entry and exit to and from the Schengen Area, it does not deny your husband *his* freedom of movement as an EU citizen - his freedom because he wouldn't want to travel without his spouse*, hence why *you* are not limited to 90 days when you are travelling with him. *Feel free to insert jokes here!

 

14 hours ago, kayelbee said:

I can't see the staff at Southampton being swayed by me producing numerous copies of old boarding and check in documents showing we always travel together and it doesn't apply.

 

Staff at Southampton do not look at the stamps in passports now to determine if someone has exceeded 90 days, and when EES is introduced it will simply be EES saying 'nope, they cannot travel'.

 

And so the issue will be ensuring that EES contains the correct information for the non-EU spouse, and to help that EES will have a web interface where an individual can check what it is showing so they will know whether there is an issue before they travel and if necessary raise any problems with the EU authorities who maintain the EES record.

Edited June 30, 2023 by 9265359