Beware of the Cancellation Policies if the cruise is changed.

[clo]

45 minutes ago, ak1004 said:

The question is who decides that the change was dramatic enough to justify a refund? If a cruise was supposed to go to France, Spain and Portugal but Portugal was cancelled and replaced with more ports in Spain, is it dramatic enough? How about Greece, Turkey and Israel, but now Israel is out for obvious reasons? World Cup cruise where Qatar is cancelled? Some people book South America for Brazil and Argentina. Others consider Antarctica as the main part of the cruise. 
 

Rules are rules, once you start to bend them, you create precedents and open a pandora box. This applies to all cruise lines, not only O.

You're comparing Antarctica to any place else? Wow. 

[GeezerCouple]

49 minutes ago, ak1004 said:

The question is who decides that the change was dramatic enough to justify a refund? If a cruise was supposed to go to France, Spain and Portugal but Portugal was cancelled and replaced with more ports in Spain, is it dramatic enough? How about Greece, Turkey and Israel, but now Israel is out for obvious reasons? World Cup cruise where Qatar is cancelled? Some people book South America for Brazil and Argentina. Others consider Antarctica as the main part of the cruise. 
 

Rules are rules, once you start to bend them, you create precedents and open a pandora box. This applies to all cruise lines, not only O.

 

In general, we agree about any "deposit policy" a cruiseline wishes to implement, as long as it is clearly stated.  And by this, I do *not* mean "buried in the fine print" *IF* the changes are material.

 

And in the hypothetical example above, when Portugal was removed from a "France, Spain, and Portugal" cruise, I would have a *LOT* of trouble if that cruise had been named from the start something "Portugal Ports and Nearby", or something like that.

The specificity of the name of the cruise is intended to inform.

(Otherwise, just call them "Cruise X" and "Cruise A" or such - only partly joking here.)

 

And IF the change makes the cruise NOT match the name of the cruise, then... drop the restriction on deposit refunds.  This is for "well in advance" changes.

Obviously, if there are some changes, such as suddenly "Portugal Ports and Nearby" is affected by a civil war or major epidemic or whatever all across Portugal as the cruise date draws near, that would be different. (Yes, there is a *lot* of subjectivity in the previous sentence, and that's clearly a problem.  But sometimes it's a lot more clear than other times.)

 

This also brings up the issue of 3rd party travel insurance with CFAR (Cancel For Any Reason).

Many of those types of policies will give 75% *cash* back with notification at least 2 days prior to departure.  It's not 100%, but it sure would take away the sting.

 

Also, a cruiseline could gain tremendous loyalty in situations like these by allowing refunds or to apply the deposit to another cruise without penalty.

That is to be compared with the outrage triggered when Oceania offered some sort of refund or credit AND THEN CANCELLED THAT OFFER WITHOUT NOTICE.

No, we were not personally affected by any of that.

However, it *definitely* caught our attention, and made us think... "Gee, how WOULD we feel if some stunt like that was pulled on us by this company....!" 😡

And how would it make us feel?  Exceedingly angry, angry enough not to want to risk doing business with a company that cannot be trusted to honor offers they themselves made.

<end rant>

 

I've really never heard of such a thing before.

 

This reminds me of a particularly apt billboard I saw many years ago - and never forgot:

 

"There is only one thing customers remember more than good service.

Bad service."

 

GC

[clo]

2 minutes ago, GeezerCouple said:

 

In general, we agree about any "deposit policy" a cruiseline wishes to implement, as long as it is clearly stated.  And by this, I do *not* mean "buried in the fine print" *IF* the changes are material.

 

And in the hypothetical example above, when Portugal was removed from a "France, Spain, and Portugal" cruise, I would have a *LOT* of trouble if that cruise had been named from the start something "Portugal Ports and Nearby", or something like that.

The specificity of the name of the cruise is intended to inform.

(Otherwise, just call them "Cruise X" and "Cruise A" or such - only partly joking here.)

 

And IF the change makes the cruise NOT match the name of the cruise, then... drop the restriction on deposit refunds.  This is for "well in advance" changes.

Obviously, if there are some changes, such as suddenly "Portugal Ports and Nearby" is affected by a civil war or major epidemic or whatever all across Portugal as the cruise date draws near, that would be different. (Yes, there is a *lot* of subjectivity in the previous sentence, and that's clearly a problem.  But sometimes it's a lot more clear than other times.)

 

This also brings up the issue of 3rd party travel insurance with CFAR (Cancel For Any Reason).

Many of those types of policies will give 75% *cash* back with notification at least 2 days prior to departure.  It's not 100%, but it sure would take away the sting.

 

Also, a cruiseline could gain tremendous loyalty in situations like these by allowing refunds or to apply the deposit to another cruise without penalty.

That is to be compared with the outrage triggered when Oceania offered some sort of refund or credit AND THEN CANCELLED THAT OFFER WITHOUT NOTICE.

No, we were not personally affected by any of that.

However, it *definitely* caught our attention, and made us think... "Gee, how WOULD we feel if some stunt like that was pulled on us by this company....!" 😡

And how would it make us feel?  Exceedingly angry, angry enough not to want to risk doing business with a company that cannot be trusted to honor offers they themselves made.

<end rant>

 

I've really never heard of such a thing before.

 

This reminds me of a particularly apt billboard I saw many years ago - and never forgot:

 

"There is only one thing customers remember more than good service.

Bad service."

 

GC

WOW. Best thing I've seen. Thank you.

[ak1004]

15 minutes ago, clo said:

You're comparing Antarctica to any place else? Wow. 

 

For some people Antarctica is more special than any other place. For other people it's Alaska.. Israel.. Italy.. Paris.. a lot of very special places.

 

On our last O cruise Lisbon and Porto were the most important ports FOR US in the whole cruise, and both were cancelled. Was I disappointed? Yes, but it's part of cruising. I moved on and didn't make a drama out of it.

 

Wake up and smell the roses.

[clo]

3 minutes ago, ak1004 said:

Wake up and smell the roses.

Oh drat, I was just about to write the same thing.

 

[Hlitner]

3 hours ago, PhD-iva said:

Again, I might not like it, but I agreed to it when I made the deposit. As explained above, the cancellation policy serves a legitimate business purpose. 
Everyone needs to make their peace with each cruise line they sail with. Don’t like it? Spend your dollars elsewhere. I am actively looking for O alternatives. Am open to suggestions……

So, if you put down a deposit on a cruise to Australia, and O decides to change it to the Caribbean, you are fine with them keeping the deposit?  While one can understand small changes in itineraries, a customer should be able to have a reasonable expectation that what they book is what they are going to get.  Booking a cruise, advertised as an Antarctic Cruise, that does not go to Antarctica (with more than a years notice) sounds like classic bait and switch.  Some might even argue it borders on fraud!  

 

We had a situation with O where we had booked a cruise that was supposed to end in Lima.  Less than 3 weeks prior to that cruise, O cancelled the stop at Lima, cancelled several other ports, and decided to end that cruise in Santiago, Chile.....which is about 1500 miles from Lima!   We had to appeal to the "suits" at "O" which we did in writing and ultimately did get our money refunded.  It probably helped that we were using a decent high volume cruise agency (part of a larger consortium) which also complained to O which does have some clout.  

 

Selling an "Antarctic" cruise that does not go anywhere near Antartica is just a deceptive practice.  It is not much different than going to an auto dealer, purchasing a Ford, and having them deliver a Chevy!  Why some fans of "O" simply accept such deceptive practices, and even defend the cruise line, is puzzling?  

 

Hank

 

[Vallesan]

4 hours ago, PhD-iva said:

Again, I might not like it, but I agreed to it when I made the deposit. As explained above, the cancellation policy serves a legitimate business purpose. 
Everyone needs to make their peace with each cruise line they sail with. Don’t like it? Spend your dollars elsewhere. I am actively looking for O alternatives. Am open to suggestions……

I have sailed Oceania predominantly but have also sailed Silversea and Seabourn. I think I prefer their smaller ships but the price is sometimes too high. I guess, for me, decisions will be made at ‘sale’ times. I think Seabourn will be my preferred line and may just suit you too,

[shepherd really]

8 hours ago, PhD-iva said:

Again, I might not like it, but I agreed to it when I made the deposit. As explained above, the cancellation policy serves a legitimate business purpose. 
Everyone needs to make their peace with each cruise line they sail with. Don’t like it? Spend your dollars elsewhere. I am actively looking for O alternatives. Am open to suggestions……

Except the OP agreed to purchase an Antarctica cruise that was literally marketed as an Antarctica cruise.  The cruise was fundamentally changed.  They put down a deposit on a Chevy Tahoe SUV and were told they would get a Chevy Volt instead and if they didn't like it, too bad.   

 

The deposit was for a different product.   A credit card dispute will end this nonsense in their favor.  

Edited January 22 by shepherd really

[hamrag]

9 hours ago, PhD-iva said:

Cruisers who reserve an itinerary and later cancel are holding up inventory, meaning other potential pax cannot make their vacation plans with that cabin/ship. Later when cruisers cancel, cruise lines must scramble to fill those cabins, often at discounted prices.
A cancellation policy helps to weed out those “window shoppers.” Won’t stop me from making a deposit if I’m serious about the itinerary. I have canceled in the past anyway when “life happens”. I agreed to the cancellation fee in advance.

I might not like it, but I can understand it.

Precisely written, thanks. Personally I find it ridiculous that passengers can tie up inventory this way. The deposit loss penalty is fair, but unfortunately will not deter everyone from this practice!

 

The remedy for significant changes like Antarctica, or Doha for world cup is a credit card dispute. In that case the credit card company is the arbitrer, and you will receive a full refund that way if your case is fair. 

[ak1004]

8 hours ago, clo said:

Oh drat, I was just about to write the same thing.

 

 

Different people have different preferences.

 

Some like nature. Others prefer to see culture, architecture, museums, local markets, eat local food, meet local people. I know a couple who is looking for South America cruise that specifically does NOT include Antarctica. I also know a couple who visited Antarctica and was not really excited.

 

We are all different. Don't judge people based on their travel priorities and preferences.

[Psoque]

9 hours ago, ak1004 said:

The question is who decides that the change was dramatic enough to justify a refund? If a cruise was supposed to go to France, Spain and Portugal but Portugal was cancelled and replaced with more ports in Spain, is it dramatic enough? How about Greece, Turkey and Israel, but now Israel is out for obvious reasons? World Cup cruise where Qatar is cancelled? Some people book South America for Brazil and Argentina. Others consider Antarctica as the main part of the cruise. 
 

Rules are rules, once you start to bend them, you create precedents and open a pandora box. This applies to all cruise lines, not only O.

One way to, at least partially, resolve this questions is look at how this particular Antarctic cruise was marketed to the passengers.  I haven't read it, but I'm assuming that Antarctic sail by was marketed as the main attraction.  If so, the change is very notable.  However, does that justify a refund?

 

The second questions is a bit more complicated to answer. From a pure legal standpoint, the cruise ship can change its itinerary in almost any manner and still not be required to give a refund.  I guess one exception is that, if the ship never leaves the port of embarkation, they would be required to do something to compensate the passengers. In my opinion, the legal contract we all "agree" to is favoring the cruise line in many ways.  Ideally, there should be some sort of an incentive/disincentive to preserve the original itinerary, instead of allowing the whims of the cruise line to change its itinerary without any immediate consequences.  I am hoping that there will be a political will with our lawmakers to consider something to push the balance to cruise passeners' favor, the same way a similar push is currently being considered for airline passengers.

[ak1004]

1 hour ago, Psoque said:

One way to, at least partially, resolve this questions is look at how this particular Antarctic cruise was marketed to the passengers.  I haven't read it, but I'm assuming that Antarctic sail by was marketed as the main attraction.  If so, the change is very notable.  However, does that justify a refund?

 

The second questions is a bit more complicated to answer. From a pure legal standpoint, the cruise ship can change its itinerary in almost any manner and still not be required to give a refund.  I guess one exception is that, if the ship never leaves the port of embarkation, they would be required to do something to compensate the passengers. In my opinion, the legal contract we all "agree" to is favoring the cruise line in many ways.  Ideally, there should be some sort of an incentive/disincentive to preserve the original itinerary, instead of allowing the whims of the cruise line to change its itinerary without any immediate consequences.  I am hoping that there will be a political will with our lawmakers to consider something to push the balance to cruise passeners' favor, the same way a similar push is currently being considered for airline passengers.

 

When a cruise is named "World Cup" and then Doha is removed 6 weeks before the cruise, is it notable enough to justify a refund? In our case it was the full amount, not just the $150 admin fee.

 

I keep providing this example to prove my point that all cruise lines do it. Can they be more flexible? Yes, but it's probably not going to happen. Attacking one specific line and repeating "never again on O" is pointless because next time it will be SS, SB or another line. This is the world we live in. Business care about one thing - their bottom line. Unfortunate, but this is the reality. Hotels, airlines and travel companies are no different.

[clo]

9 hours ago, Vallesan said:

I have sailed Oceania predominantly but have also sailed Silversea and Seabourn. I think I prefer their smaller ships but the price is sometimes too high. I guess, for me, decisions will be made at ‘sale’ times. I think Seabourn will be my preferred line and may just suit you too,

After you or someone shared the cost breakdown between O and SB I'll be taking a look also. I can't imaging our taking more than one or two cruises so that helps amortize.

[clo]

2 hours ago, ak1004 said:

We are all different. Don't judge people based on their travel priorities and preferences.

Did I miss any judgmental comments. And having traveled over quite a bit of South America, a little cruise but mostly DIY, I don't even think of SA and Antarctica as anywhere near the same. I remember chuckling when we went to the Falklands from Antarctica and seeing greenery. 🙂

 

[clo]

1 hour ago, ak1004 said:

 

When a cruise is named "World Cup" and then Doha is removed 6 weeks before the cruise, is it notable enough to justify a refund? In our case it was the full amount, not just the $150 admin fee.

 

I keep providing this example to prove my point that all cruise lines do it. Can they be more flexible? Yes, but it's probably not going to happen. Attacking one specific line and repeating "never again on O" is pointless because next time it will be SS, SB or another line. This is the world we live in. Business care about one thing - their bottom line. Unfortunate, but this is the reality. Hotels, airlines and travel companies are no different.

I believe that credit card disputes will give the money back to the passenger.

[pinotlover]

I’m far more vindictive. Oceania wants to screw me over on $300. No problem. I’ll just cancel another Oceania $12-$13K cruise , and let them do the math. Oceania jerked us around on a cruise cancelling ports and reducing port times. We came home and had our TA cancel an Oceania cruise we had booked. That cruise didn’t sail full and I guess we’re part of the reason. If Oceania pulled this stunt, as described by the OP, with us over $300, we’d let them keep another $300 and cancel another $$$ O cruise. Can Jr do math?

[ak1004]

50 minutes ago, clo said:

After you or someone shared the cost breakdown between O and SB I'll be taking a look also. I can't imaging our taking more than one or two cruises so that helps amortize.

 

We keep comparing O, SB and SS all the time. The key is which category you book. Entry level veranda on newer O ships is 240 sqft and PH is 350 sqft (plus veranda). On SB and SS entry level veranda is around 300 sqft. If 240 sqft is enough for you, then O would be better value 90% of the time. But if you book PH on O but entry level veranda on SB and SS, then SB and SS are better value.

 

Of course this is from pure financial point of view and not taking into consideration other aspects.

[ak1004]

3 minutes ago, pinotlover said:

I’m far more vindictive. Oceania wants to screw me over on $300. No problem. I’ll just cancel another Oceania $12-$13K cruise , and let them do the math. Oceania jerked us around on a cruise cancelling ports and reducing port times. We came home and had our TA cancel an Oceania cruise we had booked. That cruise didn’t sail full and I guess we’re part of the reason. If Oceania pulled this stunt, as described by the OP, with us over $300, we’d let them keep another $300 and cancel another $$$ O cruise. Can Jr do math?

 

Cancel Oceania and book which line? Do you really believe that other lines are different?

[Hlitner]

30 minutes ago, clo said:

I believe that credit card disputes will give the money back to the passenger.

Credit Card "charge backs" do happen (we have done a few) but can be very tricky if the cruise line decides to oppose the dispute.  Credit Card companies do not like to become referees, and the reality is that one would hope that the cruise line uses some decent judgement to avoid disputes and possible litigation.  Over our 50 years of extensive cruising, we have recovered two major payments from cruise lines (via credit card charge backs) , but in both those cases it involved cruise line bankruptcies (Regency and Renaissance).  

 

As one major O fan has pointed out (many times) the cruise line can fall back on its terms/conditions which (in their mind) is a contractual agreement where the cruiser gives up nearly all rights and the cruise line maintains they have the right to do just about anything.  I think the bottom line is whether customers/cruisers want to do business with a company that screws their own customers!  

[clo]

9 minutes ago, ak1004 said:

Of course this is from pure financial point of view and not taking into consideration other aspects.

There are only a few places we're interested in for a cruise and other land-based DIYs that further decrease cruise possibilities. But those cruise lines might hold some interest so I'll definitely be taking a look.
PS: We have no interest in Med, Carib, Alaska, TA and probably some others that aren't leaping into my mind. In July we're doing B2B of Celtic and Baltic areas beginning in Amsterdam and ending in Stockholm.

[pinotlover]

9 minutes ago, ak1004 said:

 

Cancel Oceania and book which line? Do you really believe that other lines are different?

Our world, unlike some here, is not limited to Ocean cruises. That episode propelled us to different experiences and explorations. We still ocean cruise and have other Oceania cruises booked, one in a couple months. However, for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction as Albert E. would say. More unsavory games can always affect future actions.

[clo]

17 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Credit Card "charge backs" do happen (we have done a few) but can be very tricky if the cruise line decides to oppose the dispute.  Credit Card companies do not like to become referees, and the reality is that one would hope that the cruise line uses some decent judgement to avoid disputes and possible litigation.  Over our 50 years of extensive cruising, we have recovered two major payments from cruise lines (via credit card charge backs) , but in both those cases it involved cruise line bankruptcies (Regency and Renaissance).  

 

As one major O fan has pointed out (many times) the cruise line can fall back on its terms/conditions which (in their mind) is a contractual agreement where the cruiser gives up nearly all rights and the cruise line maintains they have the right to do just about anything.  I think the bottom line is whether customers/cruisers want to do business with a company that screws their own customers!  

Oh I don't really disagree with you. But this particular one is so egregious and so ???? it seems pretty straightforward how the credit card company would rule. And, like you, I can get pretty darn involved, going to the top pretty quickly 🙂

[Vallesan]

20 minutes ago, clo said:

There are only a few places we're interested in for a cruise and other land-based DIYs that further decrease cruise possibilities. But those cruise lines might hold some interest so I'll definitely be taking a look.
PS: We have no interest in Med, Carib, Alaska, TA and probably some others that aren't leaping into my mind. In July we're doing B2B of Celtic and Baltic areas beginning in Amsterdam and ending in Stockholm.

Sounds wonderful!

 

[ak1004]

28 minutes ago, pinotlover said:

Our world, unlike some here, is not limited to Ocean cruises. That episode propelled us to different experiences and explorations. We still ocean cruise and have other Oceania cruises booked, one in a couple months. However, for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction as Albert E. would say. More unsavory games can always affect future actions.

 

My point was that O is not different from other companies, and I was not referring to Ocean cruises only. Think about river cruise that turns into bus tour if the water levels are too low or too high. Was it a vacation that you booked? Not at all. Good luck to get any compensation. Are tour companies any different? Not at all based on our friends experience with Trafalgar. 

 

I'm not defending O or any other cruise line, just pointing out the reality. We should be very grateful for being able to travel on premium/luxury lines, and there are much worse things in life than losing a $300 deposit. 

[mariners]

ak1004, the examples that you are giving of money/deposits not being refunded are scenarios that are/were outside the control of a cruise line and/or tour agencies.  Any government can implement new policies, such as what Qatar did for the "World Cup", and those policies can preclude a cruise line from being able to follow a set itinerary.  Any country/countries can have security issues that arise suddenly and those issues are also outside the control of a cruise line.  Water levels in rivers, hurricanes, major storms, volcano eruptions, etc. also fall outside the control of a cruise line.  That being said, I also understand why passengers get concerned that some cruise lines delay making decisions about what is going to happen as a result of those scenarios.  Luckily, all of the cruise lines that we have sailed that have been affected by such scenarios, and we have had many, have been more than generous with us without us requesting anything. 

 

However, the scenario the OP posted falls under something that is under the control of the cruise line.  I have checked my Oceania brochures and the cruise was definitely marketed as a sailing to Antarctica (Drake Passage, Paradise Bay, Half Moon Island, and Admiralty Bay).  The cruise is over one year away and Oceania is, and has been, in control of both the marketing, and the change in the itinerary.  This is much different than your scenarios.

 

Recently, we just disembarked a Viking Ocean cruise that missed a port due to weather.  Much to my surprise, shortly after getting home, we received a letter of apology for the missed port and a credit that can be used on a future cruise.  So, in my experience, not all cruise lines are the same as O.

 

I have yet to read anyone posting that they are not grateful that they have the privilege of sailing on the ships.  I agree "that there are much worse things in life than losing a $300 deposit."  Regardless, the OP has my complete support in finding the way to get the deposit returned (as others have stated, likely a credit card charge back). 

 

I also believe that if we don't like "the reality", it's up to each of us to try and make a change that works for us.  Now, I'm switching to just reading this thread as my reality is that I have travel plans that need to be made, and a day-to-day life that means that I cannot spend as much time on CC as I have been doing over the past week.  Happy sailing to all.