Passport question?

[euro cruiser]

21 minutes ago, 2blueyam said:

As an alternative to carrying your passport around, a US global entry ID card should work as well if you have one.

 

That's a very big should.  Keep in mind that in this situation, being asked on the street to see your passport, you are most likely dealing with local police or carabinieri and, guess what, many/most of them do not speak or read English.  A passport they will recognize, something as esoteric as a global entry ID ... I would not count on that.

[marazul]

3 hours ago, 2blueyam said:

As an alternative to carrying your passport around, a US global entry ID card should work as well if you have one.

Lousy idea. A GOES card is used for passport control returning to the US. It will not work at all as an ID elsewhere. The card is not valid for anything else. It is not accepted for travel anywhere else. Local law enforcement elsewhere has never seen nor care about the card.  

[2blueyam]

It is a legal US government issued ID. It can be used for air travel within the US. If crossing a border, you of course need your passport.
 

Carrying the Global Entry card and a copy of your passport while out walking or touring (not driving) and leaving your actual passport in your room safe should be fine in most countries.

 

If you are driving, that is different. The IDL is only valid with your actual passport and state drivers license.

[euro cruiser]

Again, big should.  The risk of being stopped is very low, that's the variable of interest.

 

This is what my stats professors used to call an alpha/beta problem.  Which result are you most afraid of, saying "yes" when you should have said "no", or saying "no" when you should have said "yes".  In this case, is the consequence of not having the passport when you need it a better or worse outcome than having the passport when you don't need it, with the possible outcome of losing it.

 

For the reasons I've stated, IF you are asked for your passport and you don't have it, the costs can be high in terms of time, and possibly money.  To me, when on vacation time is a very limited asset (especially so for a port day visit), so I'd be pretty worried about wasting it at the questura or local police station.

 

However, the odds of being stopped are low, so that's the offset.  If you're comfortable losing a day to administrative stuff IF you are stopped (again, low odds), then go with it.  The point is to know what decision you are making.

[marazul]

25 minutes ago, 2blueyam said:

It is a legal US government issued ID. It can be used for air travel within the US. If crossing a border, you of course need your passport.
 

Carrying the Global Entry card and a copy of your passport while out walking or touring (not driving) and leaving your actual passport in your room safe should be fine in most countries.

 

If you are driving, that is different. The IDL is only valid with your actual passport and state drivers license.

It may be legal in the US, but the GOES card is unknown in Europe.  From a purely practical point of view, no cop in any European country knows what it is. If you want to litigate it after you are arrested, you may have a chance to win it.

 

Cops know passports. Passports have a universally agreed format. Cops don't care about any other card that is not used in their countries. 

[CruiserBruce]

42 minutes ago, 2blueyam said:

It is a legal US government issued ID. It can be used for air travel within the US. If crossing a border, you of course need your passport.

The focus should be "within the US". Note that doesn't say in Italy, Mexico, Japan, or anywhere else in the world.

[EtaC]

I'd think the bottom line should be if the ship tells you to bring your passport ashore (as HAL did on my recent trip) bring your passport ashore even if, in the end, no one checks it. Don't mess around with alternatives. It's not that big a deal.

[9265359]

On 9/22/2024 at 5:33 AM, bennybear said:

To add to the discussion we have been randomly stopped twice while driving in Italy and the carabinieri wanted passport and international driving permit.  We were glad we had both with us. An IDP is also mandatory in Italy.  So it can and does happen. 

 

Driving it does, walking around the streets it doesn't.

 

7 hours ago, euro cruiser said:

This is what my stats professors used to call an alpha/beta problem.  Which result are you most afraid of, saying "yes" when you should have said "no", or saying "no" when you should have said "yes".  In this case, is the consequence of not having the passport when you need it a better or worse outcome than having the passport when you don't need it, with the possible outcome of losing it.

 

Didn't your stats professors mention probability and impact?

 

The probability of being stopped whilst walking around and being asked for your passport is infinitesimally small (and then the probability of the police officer doing anything more than waive you on your way and accepting any old document or photo scan when they realise you are a tourist and they don't want the hassle of dealing with you is smaller again), but the impact of losing your passport whilst carrying around is incredibly high.

 

I know of a number of people who lost or had their passport stolen whilst carrying it, and yet I know (and have heard of not a single person) who was stopped by the police and action taken because they were not carrying a passport.

[euro cruiser]

I have repeatedly mentioned the low probability of being stopped and asked for identification.  

 

What I have not done is quoted anecdotal evidence (what has happened to me or people I know or read about or heard about) and implied that such evidence could be projected to predict what will happen in the future.  Just because something happened to you or me, that does not mean it will happen to anyone else, much less to many others.  In the same vein, just because something has never happened to you or me, that does not mean it doesn't happen to others.

[9265359]

1 hour ago, euro cruiser said:

I have repeatedly mentioned the low probability of being stopped and asked for identification. 

 

Glad we agree on that.

 

1 hour ago, euro cruiser said:

What I have not done is quoted anecdotal evidence (what has happened to me or people I know or read about or heard about) and implied that such evidence could be projected to predict what will happen in the future.  Just because something happened to you or me, that does not mean it will happen to anyone else, much less to many others.  In the same vein, just because something has never happened to you or me, that does not mean it doesn't happen to others.

 

I am not quoting anecdotal evidence, I am quoting person experience.

 

I personally know of people who have lost or had their passport stolen because they had been carrying it, and that loss or theft caused them significant difficulty and cost.

 

I personally know of nobody who has been stopped by the police and as a result of not being able to provide passport ID has ended up being arrested, in court, fined, etc.

 

So the question is which is riskier - the low probability of being stopped (which we agree on) combined with an uncertain probability of the authorities actually taking any significant action, or a higher risk of the loss or theft of a passport and the certain difficulties and cost that would incur from that loss or theft.

 

And in factoring in whether a loss or theft of a passport is likely to occur, then it needs to be considered that unlike a European citizen carrying a credit card sized item in a wallet, a tourist will only have a full sized paper book passport, the size of which makes it far easier to lose or have stolen from a pocket.

 

[euro cruiser]

You have quoted nothing but anecdotal evidence, that's what personal experience is:

 

 "based on or consisting of reports or observations of usually unscientific observers"

 

source:  Anecdotal Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster

 

In the world of stats, it's qualitative data.  It represents only those who experienced it, it cannot be projected onto other people or situations.  It's directional, at best.

 

We agree on the question but not your assumption.  You've decided what is best for you, based on evidence that you are comfortable with.  I'm simply pointing out that your evidence cannot be used to predict what will happen to you or anyone else.

 

Every one of us makes our own risk calculation, there is no right or wrong answer.  There is just what each of us is comfortable with.

[euro cruiser]

Maybe it would be helpful to look at this decision as you would driving above the speed limit.  

 

Where I live, most cars on the highway are traveling above the speed limit, most of the time.  I assume that these drivers know that it's against the law to driver faster than the posted speed limit, but our collective lived experience has shown that if you travel no more than about 10% above the posted limit, you are unlikely to be pulled over for speeding.

 

So we make a risk assessment, and drive above the limit.  We choose this, knowing that there is a risk and knowing what the law is and the potential penalties if we are caught breaking the law.

 

What I was trying to point out in this conversation is that many people do not know the law about carrying their passport in Italy, so it's impossible for them to make an informed risk assessment as you would with speeding.  

 

Now, of course, after discussing this ad nauseum, at least those who have read through the thread have the information to make an informed assessment and behave in accordance with what they feel is right for them.

[PurpleTraveller]

When in Rome near the Spanish Steps in June we saw a family group of four being asked for their passports by police. I do not know if there was a specific reason that they were asked but only heard the police asking for their passports. We walked past casually and did not linger as we didn't want to attract their attention as we did not have our passports with us. It was the first time that I had seen anyone being asked for their passports.

 

[9265359]

16 hours ago, euro cruiser said:

We agree on the question but not your assumption.  You've decided what is best for you, based on evidence that you are comfortable with.  I'm simply pointing out that your evidence cannot be used to predict what will happen to you or anyone else.

 

And yet despite your claim of terrible fates awaiting those who do not carry their passports, despite the fact that virtually no tourists do, the press, the travel forums, social media, etc. are strangely quiet on anyone being arrested, taken to court, fined, imprisoned, etc.

 

Hmmm... I wonder why that is.

[John Bull]

1 hour ago, 9265359 said:

 

And yet despite your claim of terrible fates awaiting those who do not carry their passports, despite the fact that virtually no tourists do, the press, the travel forums, social media, etc. are strangely quiet on anyone being arrested, taken to court, fined, imprisoned, etc.

 

Hmmm... I wonder why that is.

 

I'm one who for decades has visited numerous European countries without even knowing that carrying passports is a legal requirement in many.

 

I only learned of the requirement a few short years ago, and to keep them safe we continue to leave passports in the cabin or hotel safe unless specifically advised by ship's crew.

No, nobody's going to be stopped at random - and it's never been mentioned when I've asked a cop for directions etc.

The real risk of "difficulties" - not necessarily sanctions for not carrying a passport - is if you're involved in an incident, whether as perpetrator or victim or mebbe as a witness.

 

I keep my driving licence in my wallet - it most certainly makes sense to carry it when driving.

In the UK and probably every other country, when driving it's a legal requirement to carry your driving licence if it's not issued by the country in which you're driving.

Again, you're extremely unlikely to be randomly asked for it, but there's a bigger risk of being involved in an incident

 

As long as folk are aware of the requirements, and the risks of carrying / not carrying documents I leave them to do what they're comfortable with.

 

JB 🙂

[cruisemom42]

5 hours ago, 9265359 said:

 

And yet despite your claim of terrible fates awaiting those who do not carry their passports, despite the fact that virtually no tourists do, the press, the travel forums, social media, etc. are strangely quiet on anyone being arrested, taken to court, fined, imprisoned, etc.

 

Hmmm... I wonder why that is.

 

While I think such stops are rare, I have read of them happening -- more often in the last two years. When you look at what other countries in Europe are doing (see here, for example on the most recent), it seems there is a general feeling that more border security and perhaps a need to keep track of people moving through countries. It could be related to increased threats of terrorism, and/or increases in immigrant populations or other things...

 

For those reporting experiences before 2023, yes, this was very rare. Now I would say it is still rare, but I have read more anecdotal reports on Tripadvisor, reddit, and even warnings in travel newsletters in the past two years than in the previous 20.

 

 

[9265359]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

While I think such stops are rare, I have read of them happening

 

But have you ever read of someone being arrested, taken to court, fined, imprisoned, etc. because they didn't have their passport with them.

[cruisemom42]

31 minutes ago, 9265359 said:

 

But have you ever read of someone being arrested, taken to court, fined, imprisoned, etc. because they didn't have their passport with them.

 

Fined, yes. No to the others.

 

But as I recall the fine was more than just a slap on the wrist.

 

If I am staying in Rome, I would probably still leave my passport in hotel and have a copy plus US driver's license on me. (I usually carry my US driver's license because some places want you to leave a passport or other id when you rent an audioguide, and I don't mind leaving D/L whereas I don't like to leave my passort.)

 

Yes, I understand this does not 'fulfill' the requirements but I've read of others who were stopped and this satisfied the authorities. If pressed, I would be happy to return to my hotel to produce actual passport. 

 

And yes, I realize you might meet that one petty enforcer who wouldn't accept that. I'll take that risk.

 

Going from the ship for the day is a different story. I almost always do Rome on my own, so I'd likely take passport anyway, just on the off chance that the worst happens and I miss the ship. I keep it in a sort of secret pocket pinned to inside of my pants or skirt.

 

As others have said ad nauseum, it's all about considered risk and personal choice. But should someone be stopped and fined (or worse), don't say you weren't warned. 😉

 

[bennybear]

I am active in a lot of Italian groups and many have been stopped and checked.  Particularly in train stations.  We have personally seen police come on and checking passports on the train.  
 

I know of no one who has lost their passport who has used a money belt under their clothes.  I have read of several who have lost them in backpacks, slash proof purses, and front pockets.  The pickpockets are pros.  YMMV

[princeton123211]

4 hours ago, bennybear said:

I am active in a lot of Italian groups and many have been stopped and checked.  Particularly in train stations.  We have personally seen police come on and checking passports on the train.  

And as someone who would not risk taking my passport out of a hotel or ship's safe while touring Italy I find it completely reasonable for them to ask for one in a train station and me being able to produce it.

 

If you are in a train station, with a very few exceptions, you are travelling and will presumably be with your luggage and documents. Even if you are taking a day trip by rail away from a ship, in that case I would take it with me in the event of me not being able to return to the ship before it's departure. 

 

But if I am checked into an Italian hotel or on a day stop on a ship and not leaving the port/city we are in I don't find the risk in bringing my original passport with me, and it possibly being stolen, worth it. 

[bennybear]

1 hour ago, princeton123211 said:

And as someone who would not risk taking my passport out of a hotel or ship's safe while touring Italy I find it completely reasonable for them to ask for one in a train station and me being able to produce it.

 

If you are in a train station, with a very few exceptions, you are travelling and will presumably be with your luggage and documents. Even if you are taking a day trip by rail away from a ship, in that case I would take it with me in the event of me not being able to return to the ship before it's departure. 

 

But if I am checked into an Italian hotel or on a day stop on a ship and not leaving the port/city we are in I don't find the risk in bringing my original passport with me, and it possibly being stolen, worth it. 

You do what you wish.  But it is the law and if you’re willing to be detained and or pay a hefty fine that’s your choice.   All I’m saying is that a money belt effectively negates the possibility of having your passport stolen.  And we have been pickpocketed but they got nothing of value.  

[9265359]

11 hours ago, bennybear said:

and if you’re willing to be detained and or pay a hefty fine that’s your choice

 

That's assuming that is what would happen.

 

Strangely nobody on here, other travel forums, social media, news media, etc. seems to have ever reported that it has happened to them.

 

Now perhaps they are so embarrassed that they never mention it to anyone, or perhaps the police take a less extreme approach with tourists.

[bennybear]

7 hours ago, 9265359 said:

 

That's assuming that is what would happen.

 

Strangely nobody on here, other travel forums, social media, news media, etc. seems to have ever reported that it has happened to them.

 

Now perhaps they are so embarrassed that they never mention it to anyone, or perhaps the police take a less extreme approach with tourists.

I have read several on the Italian groups I’m in. 

[9265359]

15 hours ago, bennybear said:

I have read several on the Italian groups I’m in. 

 

Italians or non-Italian tourists?

[bennybear]

6 hours ago, 9265359 said:

 

Italians or non-Italian tourists?

Tourists